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Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?


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Three Ukrainian protestors lost their lives yesterday.

Two were killed by police, the third died “after he fell from height” according to police or “was shot by police sniper” according to protestors.

Mass arrests begun, the arrested may face 15 years in prison for “taking part in mass disturbances”. Take such promises seriously in a land where oppositional presidential candidate is still in prison.

Then pay attention to the word “mass”. Even Janukovich noticed these are mass protests. Masses don’t come from “evil” west, they happen to live in their own land. En masse.

We all know who is the invisible authority who gave him orders and confidence to attempt to de-Ukrainize Ukraine by force.

So let’s not waste time on hypocrisy. Western influence is there, but it couldn’t move masses. Russian influence is there too and it is precisely what moved these masses. Only it moved them in the western direction, colour me surprised. You can't kick people into being closer friends with you.

While I see pan-Slavic cooperation as very desirable ideal in distant future, the fact today is that any country that was physically occupied by Soviets or inside former Warsaw pact zone of influence, must emancipate first.

Simply put, people need some time to catch a break from political Russians.

Cooperation should be restored as soon as possible, but not before everyone in the neighbourhood is absolutely certain there are no violence, pretensions, totalitarianism, national de-identification, looting or discriminating just waiting to happen again.

Complete former Warsaw pact is looking at Ukraine, rest assured it does, and what they see there can only make them more pro-EU and pro-NATO.

You are aware of Jews in Kiev being beaten by the rioters ? You prefer that people should stand back and let it all happened...

I do not wish to burden you with that angle of the story, so I’ll keep it very short: let him who has not imprisoned Khodorkovsky cast the first anti-semite label.

Understood?

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Three Ukrainian protestors lost their lives yesterday.

Two were killed by police, the third died “after he fell from height” according to police or “was shot by police sniper” according to protestors.

Mass arrests begun, the arrested may face 15 years in prison for “taking part in mass disturbances”. Take such promises seriously in a land where oppositional presidential candidate is still in prison.

Then pay attention to the word “mass”. Even Janukovich noticed these are mass protests. Masses don’t come from “evil” west, they happen to live in their own land. En masse.

We all know who is the invisible authority who gave him orders and confidence to attempt to de-Ukrainize Ukraine by force.

So let’s not waste time on hypocrisy. Western influence is there, but it couldn’t move masses. Russian influence is there too and it is precisely what moved these masses. Only it moved them in the western direction, colour me surprised. You can't kick people into being closer friends with you.

While I see pan-Slavic cooperation as very desirable ideal in distant future, the fact today is that any country that was physically occupied by Soviets or inside former Warsaw pact zone of influence, must emancipate first.

Simply put, people need some time to catch a break from political Russians.

Cooperation should be restored as soon as possible, but not before everyone in the neighbourhood is absolutely certain there are no violence, pretensions, totalitarianism, national de-identification, looting or discriminating just waiting to happen again.

Complete former Warsaw pact is looking at Ukraine, rest assured it does, and what they see there can only make them more pro-EU and pro-NATO.

I do not wish to burden you with that angle of the story, so I’ll keep it very short: let him who has not imprisoned Khodorkovsky cast the first anti-semite label.

Understood?

It may come as a dreaful shock, but I am not V.V. Putin, or an employee of his or any of his officials, or even un-officials, so trying to pin Khodorkovsky on me is ridiculous. Iwould suggest that to even mention that Khodorkovsky is a Jew is in itself anti semitic. He was imprisoned for fraud, not being a Jew, for if it was for being a rich jew, then please explain why Abramovich and many other Jewish businessmen have not been arrested.

The man "dead" falling from a building is alive, and he had been throwing rocks at the police. In America I presume this is okay, no chance the American police would not shoot him before you could sart whisteling Dixie, eh.. And you are wrong that rioters may face 15 years in prison, it is 5, and why not. It is not a crime to stand in a demonstration and shout slogans, but it is to riot, or do you think rioting is okay, okay that is anywhere except Ukraine, and no doubt Russia. Hypocrasy eh, I wonder who is worse. Try rioting in Washington or London and see what happens. In UK in 2011 riots, people were arrested and sent to prison for stealing a few bottles of water from looted shops. In America they shoot looters, don't they. And in Ukraine sending rioters to prison is harsh? really....

The issue is rioters and fascists from the western regions of Ukraine, not Peter the Great or Vladimir Putin, who I have not voted for by the way. Shout at Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev, Yeltsin. Shout about the reality of what happens and why, and not Russia that has done nothing in this affair except council calmness, and the inviolability of Ukranian borders. Shouting at Putin is a distraction from what is really happening, and by whom and for what. Do you really think it acceptable for foreigners to interfere in such a direct way in the internal affairs of another country, for if you do, then it opens the doors to chaos.

Edited by Kaa-Tzik
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No, Kaa Tzik, I don't prefer ANYONE be beaten but anti semitism is a fact of life - especially in Europe. The fact that hooligans are taking part in riots does not mean ALL the rioters are hooligans. What I want is for the will of the majority to be realized - NOT to have external pressures to force them into one sphere or the other. I realize that Vlad is a hero to you and to many in Russia. I think he is dangerous and I think that making a bogeyman out of the west is silly - NATO couldn't fight it's way into Tripoli for 6 months fgs! The US has no ambitions to rule over Russia - we just have longer memories than you give us credit for.

NATO could not fight it's way out of a paper bag, but America could by itself....

Are you aware of precisely why there are sizable minority in Ukraine who want to beat Jews? Are you aware these are the descendants of those who fought for the nazis in the war and willingly assisted in the Holocaust. Are you aware that the war did not end in Ukraine in 1945, that it ended in the early 1950s as these nazis supporters continued to fight the Red Army. Are who aware that large numbers escaped to the west, Britain, America, though mostly Canada, and that the children and grandchildren of these nazis are very active in trying to bring down the Ukranian state and expel all Russian speakers from their homes, even to the extent of calling for genocide. Everybody I know who has come across these people, online of course, has had death threats, including myself, and seemingly even in this thread today. They seem immune from any retribution for calling for the death of Russians, curious. They also have a voice behind the scenes in politics and the media. And look at some of the rather odd responses I get on this forum at times, sudden attacks from out of the blue, and for what, I wonder. No, not you Helen, or the Russophobic Latvian, and at least you are both honest. Others are not....

Edited by Kaa-Tzik
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It may come as a dreaful shock, but I am not V.V. Putin, or an employee of his or any of his officials, or even un-officials, so trying to pin Khodorkovsky on me is ridiculous. Iwould suggest that to even mention that Khodorkovsky is a Jew is in itself anti semitic. He was imprisoned for fraud, not being a Jew, for if it was for being a rich jew, then please explain why Abramovich and many other Jewish businessmen have not been arrested.

The man "dead" falling from a building is alive, and he had been throwing rocks at the police. In America I presume this is okay, no chance the American police would not shoot him before you could sart whisteling Dixie, eh.. And you are wrong that rioters may face 15 years in prison, it is 5, and why not. It is not a crime to stand in a demonstration and shout slogans, but it is to riot, or do you think rioting is okay, okay that is anywhere except Ukraine, and no doubt Russia. Hypocrasy eh, I wonder who is worse. Try rioting in Washington or London and see what happens. In UK in 2011 riots, people were arrested and sent to prison for stealing a few bottles of water from looted shops. In America they shoot looters, don't they. And in Ukraine sending rioters to prison is harsh? really....

Oh, please... spare both your keyboard and my eyes next time.

The issue is rioters and fascists from the western regions of Ukraine, not Peter the Great or Vladimir Putin, who I have not voted for by the way. Shout at Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev, Yeltsin. Shout about the reality of what happens and why, and not Russia that has done nothing in this affair except council calmness, and the inviolability of Ukranian borders. Shouting at Putin is a distraction from what is really happening, and by whom and for what. Do you really think it acceptable for foreigners to interfere in such a direct way in the internal affairs of another country, for if you do, then it opens the doors to chaos.

They’re Ukrainians in Ukraine, god damn it, I got it that you can’t stand their political inclinations to the point of calling them fascists, but they’re ******* at home in Ukraine.

They have right to have their votes counted in and their voices heard.

They can call your political option fascist in return, but that won’t make any of us move in any constructive direction. Though it feels good. FASCIST! *flails hands* RACIST! COMMUNIST! JUDAS ISCARIOT! *kicks the chair* Yep, this was therapeutic.

The trouble is that Russia is foreign force interfering with Ukrainian internal affairs and the further trouble is that you are apparently not even aware of that little detail.

That's precisely why the emancipation I mentioned is necessary. People can't stop being politically Russophobic if Russia doesn't even want to notice their identity and sovereignty.

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Oh, please... spare both your keyboard and my eyes next time.

They’re Ukrainians in Ukraine, god damn it, I got it that you can’t stand their political inclinations to the point of calling them fascists, but they’re ******* at home in Ukraine.

They have right to have their votes counted in and their voices heard.

They can call your political option fascist in return, but that won’t make any of us move in any constructive direction. Though it feels good. FASCIST! *flails hands* RACIST! COMMUNIST! JUDAS ISCARIOT! *kicks the chair* Yep, this was therapeutic.

The trouble is that Russia is foreign force interfering with Ukrainian internal affairs and the further trouble is that you are apparently not even aware of that little detail.

That's precisely why the emancipation I mentioned is necessary. People can't stop being politically Russophobic if Russia doesn't even want to notice their identity and sovereignty.

Being flipant does not alter facts about who is rioting, and do you really think that all of them see themselves as Ukranians? Not all do, not all are "Ruthenians". Some do not like the name Ukraine because it is Eastern Slavonic.

Show proof that Russia is interfering in the internal affairs of Ukraine, for it is obvious to the entire world that EU and US politicians most certainly are, or did you not hear McCain, Hague, Kaczynski and others calling for regime change in Ukraine. That is no different than calling for revolution and they have broken Ukranian law when saying it on Ukranian territory, and maybe the laws of their own countries if from outside. So your cries about Russian interference sound rather hollow, and as this is the only point you actually make, clearly a distraction.

You, and other posters, need to be able to answer the question, or at least address it in some meaningful way, of who is a Ukranian, whether they have a Ukranian or a Russian passport. This is about more than lines drawn on a map, it is also about blood and ancestry. There are no issues about this in Russia or with the majority of Ukranians, there is no conflict except that manufactured by those in the western regions and their supporters abroad, who seem to like Jew hating facists when it suits them, and despite strict laws in their own countries about racism, blah blah blah. These oh so self righteous EU politicians use one face to complain about football fans waving bananas, then the other face to support another form of rascism, and rioting they would crush in their own countries, how very unsurprising.

Edited by Kaa-Tzik
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I make no claim of understanding the region - it's why I ask the question, but the Cold War is not so long ago that people should simply forget the things done (by both sides) in it. The people of Ukraine should be left alone to sort their differences - even if it means general bloodshed. No other country should come into the fray and "help" them decide their course -America, EU or Russia, IMO. And the country certainly shouldn't become a proxy battleground for any of the above mentioned.

Nicely put :tu:

Cold war slogans "Enemies don't sleep", seeing enemies all around is deeply ingrained.

And lets not forget economic interests - just one aspect: Ukraine with the help from EU may build LNG (liquid natural gas) terminals, cutting imports (having bargaining card on the price) from Russia, not that catastrophic for Russia's export, but surely noticeable (altogether with LNGTs under construction in countries dependable on Russian gas, i.e. Poland, Lithuania, and other countries).

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[...] the Russophobic Latvian, [...]

Can you post link to his russophobic posts? I certainly would like to say hi, and shake his hand (as much as it possible on the net).
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Nicely put :tu:

Cold war slogans "Enemies don't sleep", seeing enemies all around is deeply ingrained.

And lets not forget economic interests - just one aspect: Ukraine with the help from EU may build LNG (liquid natural gas) terminals, cutting imports (having bargaining card on the price) from Russia, not that catastrophic for Russia's export, but surely noticeable (altogether with LNGTs under construction in countries dependable on Russian gas, i.e. Poland, Lithuania, and other countries).

You certainly seem to still live in cold war with your remarks. And as for seeing "enemies all around", then you have no problem with Kaliningrad, as I remember you complaing about it's existance in other threads, or it is okay for Russia to have only one foreign base, Tartus, and America to have hundreds. It is not paranoia when you are actually surrounded, despite intentions, and you or anybody on this forum can say what American intentions are. Odd for any country, and particuarly one that likes invading other countries in these post cold war days, to have so many bases abroad, like in the Baltic states, because why? the "big bad enemy" is going to invade you, hmm.

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Can you post link to his russophobic posts? I certainly would like to say hi, and shake his hand (as much as it possible on the net).

It's you, and you know it. Well, so many in Latvia that it tends to be in my mind more than other Baltic states.

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Ahh, nothing like a rusofiliac to talk about Ukraine! :innocent:

I think you will find that every post in this thread except mine is Russophobic to one degree or another, some barely noticible, others screaming out...

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I think you will find that every post in this thread except mine is Russophobic to one degree or another, some barely noticible, others screaming out...

And now the bystanders too know why...

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This. You invade Canada and we'll give you 'nam 2.0. :)

Peace :)

Dear heavens! Nam ... with MOUNTIES!! :w00t: We know our limits, brother!
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Are you aware of precisely why there are sizable minority in Ukraine who want to beat Jews? Are you aware these are the descendants of those who fought for the nazis in the war and willingly assisted in the Holocaust.

Come now, antisemitism in the Ukraine existed long before the NAZIS. What's the Ukrainian word for pogrom?

http://en.wikipedia....tism_in_Ukraine

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I asked my good friend what is he doing while people riot, what people from Kiev do. And he lives in Kiev.

He just told me ' we do nothing we are in our homes while the people who protest are mostly people from border areas, close to Poland ' Its a shame whats happening. I cant imagine what would i do if i see people from distant areas come and make a mess in my city.

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I asked my good friend what is he doing while people riot, what people from Kiev do. And he lives in Kiev.

He just told me ' we do nothing we are in our homes while the people who protest are mostly people from border areas, close to Poland ' Its a shame whats happening. I cant imagine what would i do if i see people from distant areas come and make a mess in my city.

You're throwing Poland into the argument? Have you Russkies not done enough to people of Poland, FGS?

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You're throwing Poland into the argument? Have you Russkies not done enough to people of Poland, FGS?

I have said this '' from border areas, close to Poland ''

And as u can see this only describes from where did the majority of those people who protest came from, nothing else.

I am in not a 'russkie' in the way u speak nor do i have any reason to feel shame or responsibility for crimes that were done against polish people, among which i have friends and who helped part of my family which escape to Poland in war time here. But should people in Russia that are not responsible for past crimes be judged by that ww2 acts? What should we think about german people who helped many countries and people in need, in last 20years time?

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Come now, antisemitism in the Ukraine existed long before the NAZIS. What's the Ukrainian word for pogrom?

http://en.wikipedia....tism_in_Ukraine

Yes, that's all correct of course, though the point I make is that the bulk of this anti-semitism is from western Ukraine, not all I admit, but it has to be said that in the sourthern and eastern regions since 1991 there have been cities with Jewish mayors, something that is rather unlikely in say, Lvov. There is anti-semitism in just about every country to some degree, but it in the western regions of Ukraine it is almost a way of life for some, as is hatred of Russians.

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And now the bystanders too know why...

I think "bystanders" will read the short but accurate history of important elements of Ukraine I have provided, and that nobody has questioned, and that's because it is all verifiable fact. They will see that I give reasons for who the rioters are and why they have invaded Kiev, and they will see that the posts against me have no substance, only the constant emoting of tired old anti Russian slogans. There is no debate in this thread, as one side can bring nothing here except the constant mantra that any bad that happens must be the fault of Putin/Russia/USSR/Stalin and on and on. No real facts, no in depth knowledge about Ukraine displayed, nothing except empty slogans, and from at least one poster, not you or the Lithuanian, profound and possibly wilful ignorance of the region and it's history and politics, and seemingly a wish for my death. But calling for the death of Russians on this forum is hardly rare, is it.....

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I asked my good friend what is he doing while people riot, what people from Kiev do. And he lives in Kiev.

He just told me ' we do nothing we are in our homes while the people who protest are mostly people from border areas, close to Poland ' Its a shame whats happening. I cant imagine what would i do if i see people from distant areas come and make a mess in my city.

and the reports coming through on social media from Kiev seem to validate your post. are we now witnessing a true east - west divide? whats in it for the EU Crimea? one of the last few pieces of the jigsaw in rubbing right up to Russia. once the EU have Ukraine - how long before Georgia follows. just look at the money pumped into Ukraine under the EU's neighbouring country policy.

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I have said this '' from border areas, close to Poland ''

And as u can see this only describes from where did the majority of those people who protest came from, nothing else.

I am in not a 'russkie' in the way u speak nor do i have any reason to feel shame or responsibility for crimes that were done against polish people, among which i have friends and who helped part of my family which escape to Poland in war time here. But should people in Russia that are not responsible for past crimes be judged by that ww2 acts? What should we think about german people who helped many countries and people in need, in last 20years time?

I think you know that you are dealing with people who either still think that 3rd Shock Army is poised to smash through Braunschweig and Hannover at any moment, or have reasons to hate Russia, and likely Slavs in general, that they keep hidden. They make comments that show they have no knowledge of Ukraine and it's complicated history at all. If they cannot read the slogans that the rioters display, or understand what they shout, or what the various flags that they fly represent, then how can they know anything, how can they make any informed and sensible comment.....

Dialogue between a rioter and policeman yesterday.

Rioter - "Why don't you throw down your shield?"

Policeman - "No, we will fight to the death"

Rioter, laughing - "To the death!, for them?" as he points vaguely behind policeman, and means the government.

Policeman - "Not for you and not for us, but for the Ukranian people!. You (at the rioter) are not the people!" As he knows well what the rioter is, and why he riots.

There was a further exchange of "opinions" that I will not mention, but can be guessed at :)

Edited by Kaa-Tzik
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Awful lot of hearsay on this board trying to make the protesters look bad. Makes one wonder.

Not hearsay at all. Simply look at what they do, unless you think rioting is okay of course, look at the symbols they use, unless you think nazi symbols are okay of course, and listen to what they shout and what is on their banners, like "Kill Russians" or "Kill Jews", unless you think that killing Russians and Jews is okay of course. I thought you were communist, except perhaps when it comes to fascists wanting death for Russians, and then we see the mask slip......

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Awful lot of hearsay on this board trying to make the protesters look bad. Makes one wonder.

I think the protesters are doing a good job of doing this themselves. what are they rioting over exactly. - A postponed agreement with the EU, Not canceled just postponed - are these violent protests really warranted? you'd think after the orange uprising 10 years ago people would use the ballot box. if people do not agree with the current presidents / government position of leaning more towards Russia - vote the government out at the next election. this situation is not a matter of urgency.

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I hear the two of you telling me things that were said on the streets of Kiev and wonder how you come to have heard it. That is all, oh, in one case I guess a friend heard it.

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