Will Russia come to the "aid" of Ukraine?

[acidhead]

Time to break out that slush fund.... haha

Love the photo

EU leaders have signed an agreement on closer relations with Ukraine, in a show of support following Russia's annexation of Crimea.

Link (BBC): http://www.bbc.com/n...europe-26680250

Love the photo of the banker... er... the interim PM Yats holding both hands out as if he's welcoming a bailout from EU citizens.

[stevewinn]

is this the same The EU Association Agreement the ousted President postponed signing which kicked off this whole chain of events. Its a funny old game geopolitics, we install an unelected Pro EU interim Ukrainian President of our liking, which leads us to this signing - shouldnt this signing of the agreement have been postponed until after the Elections in Ukraine? when a legitimate elected President / Government could then decide to sign it or not. and we the West bang on about the legitimacy of the Crimean referendum have we got any room to talk? with how we've acted in Kiev. - and so it seems the EU got their way in the end but have they? the EU's got closer ties tying them to a country (Ukraine) in an economy crisis and needing billions, $45 billion minimum. but what did Russia get? Crimea, strategically important and wealthy compared to the majority of Ukriane. Russia must be laughing. surely Russia must be weighing up if its viable to now move into eastern Ukraine.

[SolarPlexus]

I get the notion the Tatars had been moving back and reclaiming property the Russian settlers had taken from them under Communism.

Taken because Tatars were Nazi collaborators

[Helen of Annoy]

is this the same The EU Association Agreement the ousted President postponed signing which kicked off this whole chain of events. Its a funny old game geopolitics, we install an unelected Pro EU interim Ukrainian President of our liking, which leads us to this signing - shouldnt this signing of the agreement have been postponed until after the Elections in Ukraine? when a legitimate elected President / Government could then decide to sign it or not.

Rada deputies were elected. They decided on assembly of interim government and president, not the EU.

Since Ukraine is facing undeclared but very real Russian aggression it would be criminal hypocrisy to halt help for Ukraine under formal excuses.

If Russia was courteous enough to allow their puppet to allow free and fair elections, then yes, EU would have to wait for the results of such elections.

and we the West bang on about the legitimacy of the Crimean referendum have we got any room to talk? with how we've acted in Kiev.

The West didn’t act in Kyiv. Ukrainians did. Pro-democratic Ukrainian citizens of all ethnicities, to make it clearer.

There probably are all kinds of agencies present, but there’s no agency in this world that can move a nation. Just like there’s no KGB (or whatever they call themselves today) that can stop a nation.

What happened in Ukraine was not a western plot, it was natural end of Russian occupation of Europe. Better late than never.

- and so it seems the EU got their way in the end but have they? the EU's got closer ties tying them to a country (Ukraine) in an economy crisis and needing billions, $45 billion minimum. but what did Russia get? Crimea, strategically important and wealthy compared to the majority of Ukriane. Russia must be laughing. surely Russia must be weighing up if its viable to now move into eastern Ukraine.

Crimea is unnatural exception, attempt to reverse the process, and just how well that adventure will end... no water, no electricity, no railways or roads that connect Crimea with Russia. Everything goes from and through Ukraine.

Sure, Russia will build the bridge to Crimea. Out of birch wood if Germany stops buying their gas. It doesn’t matter, as long as there’re fireworks at the opening ceremony.

Tourists will simply flock to the potential war zone without fresh water or electricity. And tourism is what Crimea has. Had. That and warm water ports. Russia has Black Sea ports other than Ukrainian ports she used. On top of that, if they weren’t so damn arrogant and violent the new government would almost certainly keep leasing them to Russia.

The more I think of it all, the more counter-productive for Russia it looks.

[acidhead]

If Russia was courteous enough to allow their puppet to allow free and fair elections, then yes, EU would have to wait for the results of such elections.

Reeally!?!?...

Look and listen:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/06/us-ukraine-russia-eu-victoria-nuland

Thursday 6 February 2014 23.18 GMT

The frustration of the Obama administration at Europe’s hesitant policy over the pro-democracy protests in Ukraine has been laid bare in a leaked phone conversation between two senior US officials, one of whom declares: “**** the EU”.

The US state department did not directly confirm that the leaked audio clip posted on YouTube captures the voices of the top US diplomat for European and Eurasian affairs,Victoria Nuland, and US ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt. However, the department’s spokeswoman Jen Psaki said that Nuland, who made the disparaging remark about the EU, “has been in contact with her EU counterparts and of course has apologised for these reported comments”

[acidhead]

I'm posting from an android phone and it's some what frustrating posting sometimes. Glitches galore.

Here's the phone call from my post above:

[acidhead]

Im trying to copy the full transcript but my fingers are too oily and big.... I need my laptop.

Damn data phones... not invented for grown men

Edited March 21, 2014 by acidhead

[Harry_Dresden]

Congratulate them on their "win" if you like. I remember the 70's and the 80's and the reach the bear had. Whatever sins the US may have committed were certainly not worse than the old USSR. If it comes back the world will be a more dangerous place - if that's even possible.

I don't believe that... The world was never safer than during the Cold War. Both the USA and the now defunct USSR could not achieve nuclear superiority and so the world was demarcated into their respective spheres of influence with each afraid to attempt anything stupid since the only outcome was total annihilation for the world. This is not the case now. It's a free for all with the rise of regional nations, Islamic religious movements, the proliferation of nuclear weapons and that soon to be behemoth China. The days of unhinded American initiated organised chaos (Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Middle East Spring movement), to achieve foreign policy objectives are over. Well, at least in Russia and it's near abroad. And not just for geo-political reasons do i miss the Cold War...The whole world is now capitalist in business practices. We in the west are unable to compete in manufacturing with these ' new capitalists' and not having full access to their markets even though they have access to ours. We have beaten by those we used to lecture about business, democracy and politics. I liked it much better during the Cold War!!!

Edited March 21, 2014 by Harry_Dresden

[bmk1245]

[...] Crimea, strategically important and wealthy compared to the majority of Ukriane.[...]

If you call 30% (rest 70% were coming from Ukraine) self sufficiency as being wealthy, then yes - Crimea was "wealthy". Of course, Crimeans will be in better position (as in living standards) in comparison to the Ukraine if (and thats big IF) Russia will keep what they promised. I only hope Crimea won't be second South Ossetia.

[...] Russia must be laughing. [...]

From somewhat smugishly desperate response to US/EU sanctions, I'd say "laugh" is just for TV audience in Russia.

[Harry_Dresden]

I get the notion the Tatars had been moving back and reclaiming property the Russian settlers had taken from them under Communism.

Hilarious! Now the State Department and the western press found the "Tartars" will have their democratic rights infringed upon by the Russians, never mind that the Russians were becoming second class citizens in the Ukraine. Getting desperate looking for moral high ground me thinks.

[Helen of Annoy]

Reeally!?!?...

Look and listen:

http://www.theguardi...victoria-nuland

Thursday 6 February 2014 23.18 GMT

The frustration of the Obama administration at Europe's hesitant policy over the pro-democracy protests in Ukraine has been laid bare in a leaked phone conversation between two senior US officials, one of whom declares: "**** the EU".

The US state department did not directly confirm that the leaked audio clip posted on YouTube captures the voices of the top US diplomat for European and Eurasian affairs,Victoria Nuland, and US ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt. However, the department's spokeswoman Jen Psaki said that Nuland, who made the disparaging remark about the EU, "has been in contact with her EU counterparts and of course has apologised for these reported comments"

I said this few times before but I’ll be so kind to repeat it for you only, since it’s obviously necessary:

I.Do.Not.Care.What.Certain.Nuland.Said.

If you think Ukrainians snapped and motivated the pro-Russian leech to abandon his presidential position because of Nuland’s ****s, then you’re... special.

I do find desperate attempts to keep that **** in focus very amusing, but they are also becoming a little offensive.

There’s yet another country inhabited with real people that is under attack of very imperialist and aggressive Russia. I said real people because I noticed great effort is being put into labelling whole nation “neo-Nazi”, which is an old dehumanization method. These are not people, these are the enemy, the Nazis, the commies, the spawn of the devil... anything, but not the people.

Well, surprise, Ukrainians are people. They bleed when Russian snipers hit them.

Think about that before you post again.

[acidhead]

Im trying to post the full transcript where Nuland and Pyatt agree that Yats, the banker, is the guy they (the USA), will install as interim PM.

[acidhead]

Helen,

Take your blinders off and stop playing the na na na na kiddy game.

I'm showing evidence which proves the American GOV was behind the riots in Kiev.

And have placed a puppet at their choosing WHO IS A BANKER to rape the Ukrainians.

But you dont give two damns because of your self proclaimed tarnished experience as a youth.

[Helen of Annoy]

He doesn't even read what I reply, he keeps harping on about that woman and ****s she gave...

Like that can change the fact that whole damn world knows Russia simply invaded yet another country.

[Helen of Annoy]

Helen,

Take your blinders off and stop playing the na na na na kiddy game.

I'm showing evidence which proves the American GOV was behind the riots in Kiev.

And have placed a puppet at their choosing WHO IS A BANKER to rape the Ukrainians.

But you dont give two damns because of your self proclaimed tarnished experience as a youth.

Ah, you are there to save me from the West and to explain my life to me... and you’ll do that from Canada, via Internet

Are you wearing a cape? Red? With sickle and hammer?

So, how's your fifth column doing lately? Is its statics fine or you'll crumble if someone god forbid accidentally kicks it?

Edited March 21, 2014 by Helen of Annoy

[bmk1245]

[...] never mind that the Russians were becoming second class citizens in the Ukraine. Getting desperate looking for moral high ground me thinks.

That self inflicted "Russians were becoming second class citizens" rant is quite boring. Somewhat in Turkmenistan (and other central Asia Countries) second class citizens (note absence of quotation marks) is not an issue - Russia is not invading/liberating Russians in those countries. How Russians were "oppressed" in Crimea? How many Russian schools were in Crimea? In 2009 there were 340. How many Ukrainian schools? 7. Now, take ratio of Russians and Ukrainians living in Crimea, and you will see how "equality" (how it is understood by Russians) works.

[acidhead]

Listen Helen. I have zero stake in this. Nothing. Ziltch.

Ive refrained from saying anything about this for weeks because I was studying the logistics of the situation.

Logically it made absolutely ZERO sense for Yakunovich to order snipers to shoot protesters. NONE

I watched liveleak videos daily of Ukrainian protesters violently attacking unarmed riot police. DAILY

Don't deny the brutal assaults on police by masked protesters fire bombing them inside and outside gov buildings.

In canada or America or Britain it never would have been allowed. In Toronto a few years ago during the g20 peaceful protesters were beaten and dragged away into pig pens. For what? Demonstrating against the very banksters now controlling the illegal Ukraine gov.

Tell me... What point was Yakunovich making if he did indeed order snipers to shoot protesters? He wasn't even in Kiev or the country for all we know. Why order an illogical order? He didn't order it when his police were being fire bombed or beaten... why order it once he's removed himself? Makes ZERO sense.

What makes perfect logical sense is mercenaries sniping protesters to garner international attention.

*****

Now listen closely...

I do not trust Putin's gov. I do not trust my canadian gov nor the american gov or any gov that bends over to banksters.

They are the scum of the earth.

I don't look at it for what I want it to be... I look at it for what it is.

Ah, you are there to save me from the West and to explain my life to me... and you’ll do that from Canada, via Internet

Are you wearing a cape? Red? With sickle and hammer?

So, how's your fifth column doing lately? Is its statics fine or you'll crumble if someone god forbid accidentally kicks it?

Please Helen.

I'm not your enemy.

[Helen of Annoy]

acid, it's my life you're playing with with your armchair activism. Do me a favour and save only your country from any evil you perceive as such and kindly **** off my lawn. Invite Russians into your own house, not into mine. Under any excuse, I honestly do not care.

You are offending my intelligence when you are explaining to me what banks are doing and who's running the show. I know. Everyone ******* knows. But you do not ****en fix that by supporting Putin, god damn you stupid.

[Harry_Dresden]

That self inflicted "Russians were becoming second class citizens" rant is quite boring. Somewhat in Turkmenistan (and other central Asia Countries) second class citizens (note absence of quotation marks) is not an issue - Russia is not invading/liberating Russians in those countries. How Russians were "oppressed" in Crimea? How many Russian schools were in Crimea? In 2009 there were 340. How many Ukrainian schools? 7. Now, take ratio of Russians and Ukrainians living in Crimea, and you will see how "equality" (how it is understood by Russians) works.

Well for starters the Russian "minority" vote in the last Ukrainian election was completely nullified by the actions of the coup leaders. The very first act of these "new" ultra nationalist leaders of Ukraine was to raise the issue of stopping Russian language rights and blocking Russian TV and social media... but all that is unimportant since I'm capable of seeing the hipocracy of both sides (just pointing it out) while your incapable of the same. Instead trusting in what you read and hear on CNN and FOX.

...and yes you are correct... the Russians will abuse the rights of the Ukrainians and the other minorities that they regard as suspect... but the fact is the West miscalculated in it's dealings with the Ukrainian ultra nationalists and this allowed Putin to take what he coveted all along. and Putin won't stop there either, he will most probably cause lots of mischief in Eastern Ukraine too... Ukraine's new government was dumb for not seeing the realities and the USA had nothing to lose and quite frankly is probably happy with the situation cause now it can have another Cold War were the Chess pieces are firmly on Russia's boarder.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Harry_Dresden

[acidhead]

acid, it's my life you're playing with with your armchair activism. Do me a favour and save only your country from any evil you perceive as such and kindly **** off my lawn. Invite Russians into your own house, not into mine. Under any excuse, I honestly do not care.

You are offending my intelligence when you are explaining to me what banks are doing and who's running the show. I know. Everyone ******* knows. But you do not ****en fix that by supporting Putin, god damn you stupid.

I just told you I don't trust him.

I don't trust any gov that uses force. Politically I'm libertarian. I believe in the non aggression principle.

[bmk1245]

[...]

I watched liveleak videos daily of Ukrainian protesters violently attacking unarmed riot police. DAILY

[...]

liveleak videos? Oh dear... Did you watched live feeds? Guess not...

[acidhead]

Well for starters the Russian "minority" vote in the last Ukrainian election was completely nullified by the actions of the coup leaders. The very first act of these "new" ultra nationalist leaders of Ukraine was to raise the issue of stopping Russian language rights and blocking Russian TV and social media... but all that is unimportant since I'm capable of seeing the hipocracy of both sides (just pointing it out) while your incapable of the same. Instead trusting in what you read and hear on CNN and FOX.

True.

In developed countries like Russia, Saudi Arabia, China the gov controls freedom of information by limiting what the individual can see and hear.

In western countries we have what is called a controlled opposition media.

[acidhead]

liveleak videos? Oh dear... Did you watched live feeds? Guess not...

Yes. I watched live feeds.... from our controlled opposition media... CBC.. CNN.. BBC..ETC.. All with controlled color commentary.

The odd time a dissenting opinion will say something that goes against the towing line but it's drowned out.

Liveleak videos without commentary I find is best because it ALLOWS the viewer to form his/her own opinion.

[Helen of Annoy]

I just told you I don't trust him.

Yet you’re posting in his favour. Because **** Ukraine, you can sacrifice them to spite your own government? Vote, man, vote, protest, stand on your head, do what you think will help but believe me Russians (of all imperialists, you had to pick Russians) won’t help you live in more free state.

I don't trust any gov that uses force. Politically I'm libertarian.

And I'm neo-Nazi, according to you

I believe in the non aggression principle.

So do I but I will make exceptions to that rule if someone starts sniping at me again.

[acidhead]

Helen...

Just curious...

In your opinion, does there exist good Russians?