the myth of Atlantis in context

[The Puzzler]

Lego does not mean leggen (thats not even a word in Danish), its called lego because it is an abreviation of "Leg godt" (play well).

Every child in Denmark knows that !

Play has a p before leg in all examples of etymology for it - just wondering how there is no p in leg for apparent play here - has Danish lost the p sound in play somewhere or perhaps a slang/lazy way to say it..?

How interesting also that play actually has the word lay in it, cards would be an example when you played something you lay it down. It would not even surprise me if play actually came from lay.

Edited February 8, 2014 by The Puzzler

[Frank Merton]

Oh but "play" is Greek for Plato.

[Frank Merton]

Ooops sorry about that; I was so carried away by how clever I was that I had it posted before I realized how stupid I was.

[The Puzzler]

You should make at least a tiny effort to track that one down.

Dark-skinned in Ancient Greek:

Link

Link

Link

Link

Odd that nothing resembling Azaes can be found under "swarthy."

So, there's the search. Find it for us under "olive skinned" or "dark skinned" or "tanned" or whatever

I guess this is par for the course when dealing with someone that believes everything they read - including 2300 year old philosophical treatises wrapped in hypotheticals.

Harte

Just saying that as- is a PIE root for 'to burn'.

In Hebrew most as words relate to 'to strike against'.

[Van Gorp]

To say that two words have the same root requires more than just similarity of form and meaning, as it could be a borrowing or just a coincidence. The word in Vietnamese for the internet is "internet." That does not mean Vietnamese and English are related.

The question always is, what meaning can you draw from that root in both of those languages.

English, there is meaning

Vietnamees, i don't think they use the word 'net' for 'net', so ne meaning, so internet just a borrowing (this is too clear example)

Actually i think in case if in both languages they would have had the same meaning you can be pretty sure there IS a relation (coincidence is too easy to explain when there is correspondence in form and meaning).

[Van Gorp]

But to go back to topic, if i read many posts:

it's that outrageous for many to assume 'Atlantis' is not a Greek name, but possibly a foreign (fi Germanic?)

[nico_k]

So, how is the word Atlantis proven Greek word when they don't even know the true etymology of the word Atlas. Since he's also a Titan god his name is more than likely pre- Greek.

Herodotus uses the same word for the sea Atlantis. If sea was already in the word (sea of atlas) why does Herodotus use the word sea/thalassa next to Atlantis...? Is he calling it the sea of atlas sea?

Why does an island name contain the word sea if it equates to sea of atlas?

Also, why does Plato give us a Greek translation for the name Gadeirus? Atlas twin. If the names are already Greek, why does he do that?

ATLANTIS, (id.,) Idie, adject, femln. Of or belonging to Atlas

and/or

Atlantis, idos, ïdl, Ida, pL ïdès, etc fem. Belonging to Atlas, either as his daughters, or as woods that grew on Mount Atlas, etc. etc.

[Van Gorp]

Lego was invented by Ole Kirk Christiansen from Billund (Denmark) in 1934, so if he decided to name his invention Lego, the name is Lego !

If you call it something else but Lego, be my guest, but it doesnt make you right.

Im born and raised in Denmark, so i think i know the language pretty well !

I won't discuss that, you know to speak Danish, I don't.

That's why I may ask you:

if you want to say 'Play well' you say 'Lego' in Danish? So is Lego actually a real Danish word?

and what is the meaning of 'laegge' in Danish?

That the word Lego in Latin means 'i place together' (assembke) can be a coincidence in the mind of the one that formed the word, but not necessarely true in terms of etymology.

I think much has to do how people want to approach language and all it's relations.

[Leonardo]

Isn't it weird how Atlantis threads usually end up with the 'pro-Atlanteans' defending linguistic contortionalism to justify their position?

Is it because there simply is no evidence for the existence of Atlantis as a real place, but only as a fictitious island invented by Plato to enable his socio-political allegory?

Edited February 8, 2014 by Leonardo

[nico_k]

Isn't it weird how Atlantis threads usually end up with the 'pro-Atlanteans' defending linguistic contortionalism to justify their position?

Is it because there simply is no evidence for the existence of Atlantis as a real place, but only as a fictitious island invented by Plato to enable his socio-political allegory?

can you identify this?

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

I won't discuss that, you know to speak Danish, I don't.

That's why I may ask you:

if you want to say 'Play well' you say 'Lego' in Danish? So is Lego actually a real Danish word?

and what is the meaning of 'laegge' in Danish?

That the word Lego in Latin means 'i place together' (assembke) can be a coincidence in the mind of the one that formed the word, but not necessarely true in terms of etymology.

I think much has to do how people want to approach language and all it's relations.

No you say leg godt. Lego is not an actual word in Danish, its a brand name.

I guess you mean "lægge", and it means "to lay/or put" (jeg lægger mig på sengen - i will lay down on the bed)

I dont know if he spoke latin, but even if he didn´t, someone might have told him about the latin meaning.

[Leonardo]

can you identify this?

Not being an expert in [possibly] ancient pottery, no I can't.

And how is that relevant to what I stated?

[nico_k]

Not being an expert in [possibly] ancient pottery, no I can't.

And how is that relevant to what I stated?

maybe someone else can identify it.

you are an expert in what field applicable to the discussion of atlantis? so i can ask a question...

[Leonardo]

maybe someone else can identify it.

you are an expert in what field applicable to the discussion of atlantis? so i can ask a question...

As this isn't an academic site, I don't require anyone here (including myself) to be an authority in anything. Simply be able to make a reasoned argument and provide evidence for claims made if required.

And why is an unidentified piece of pottery relevant to the thread?

[Harte]

Solon's manuscript was never published. Even using the Perseus translation you cited:

"[Ti. 21c] ...if he had completed the story he brought here from Egypt, instead of being forced to lay it aside owing to the seditions and all the other evils he found here on his return"

Complete the story and lay it aside in his head? No, it was written in form, but failed to be published because of civil conflict. Solon's manuscript covered the story of Atlantis and the prehistoric Athenians. Good luck explaining why a random scribbled number of Egyptian words and translations would have not been published "owing to the seditions and all the other evils he found here on his return"...

You also fail to read properly what you quote. You say: "Solon had written down his Hellenized versions of the names of people and places" yet here is what Ti. 13a actually says (again, Perseus translation):

"Since Solon was planning to make use of the story for his own poetry, he had found, on investigating the meaning of the names, that those Egyptians who had first written them down had translated them into their own tongue..."

I note that you don't bold-face the word "planning" in the above.

More cherry-picking, as the next two sentences are "So he himself in turn recovered the original sense of each name and, rendering it into our tongue, wrote it down so. And these very writings were in the possession of my grandfather and are actually now in mine, and when I was a child I learnt them all by heart."

What has Critais "learned ...by heart" here?

Clearly, a list of names.

If Critias has a manuscript, why does Plato describe the evening before the setting of the Timaeus thusly?:

Yesterday, in fact, immediately after our return from you to the guest-chamber at Critias where we are lodging—aye, and earlier still, on our way there—we were considering these very subjects. Critias here mentioned to us a story derived from ancient tradition; and now, Critias, pray tell it again to our friend here, so that he may help us to decide whether or not it is pertinent to our prescribed theme.

Timaeus 20c-d

Critas never showed his houseguests this manuscript?

also:

Critias

Listen then, Socrates, to a tale which, though passing strange, is yet wholly true, as Solon,the wisest of the Seven, once upon a time declared. Now Solon—as indeed he often says himself in his poems—was a relative and very dear friend of our great-grandfather Dropides; and Dropides told our grandfather Critias as the old man himself, in turn, related to us—that the exploits of this city in olden days, the record of which had perished through time and the destruction of its inhabitants, were great and marvellous, the greatest of all being one which it would be properfor us now to relate both as a payment of our debt of thanks to you and also as a tribute of praise, chanted as it were duly and truly, in honor of the Goddess on this her day of Festival.¹

Socrates

Excellent! But come now, what was this exploit described by Critias, following Solons report, as a thing not verbally recorded, although actually performed by this city long ago?

Critias

I will tell you: it is an old tale, and I heard it from a man not young. For indeed at that time, as he said himself,Critias was already close upon ninety years of age, while I was somewhere about ten; and it chanced to be that day of the Apaturia which is called “Cureotis.”¹ The ceremony for boys which was always customary at the feast was held also on that occasion, our fathers arranging contests in recitation. So while many poems of many poets were declaimed, since the poems of Solon were at that time new, many of us children chanted them. And one of our fellow tribesmen—whether he really thought so at the time or whether he was paying a compliment to Critias—declared that in his opinion Solon was not only the wisest of men in all else, but in poetry also he was of all poets the noblest.

Timaeus 20d-21c

Plato claims Solon, in Plato's story, was planning to write a poem, one which he never wrote.

What story? The story the Egyptians told him about Atlantis and the prehistoric Athenians of course. This same "story" in manuscript or written form is referenced throughout. The manuscript did not only cover Solon's translation scribbles, even Ti. 13a which you quote shows otherwise. Excluding the manuscript, the story of Atlantis was also told orally and passed down Dropides descendants.

No, the dialogue itself indicates that the thing was never written. The "story" you refer to here is Plato's, not Solon's.

Note:

You have now heard, Socrates, in brief outline, the account given by the elder Critias of what he heard from Solon; and when you were speaking yesterday about the State and the citizens you were describing, I marvelled as I called to mind the facts I am now relating, reflecting what a strange piece of fortune it was that your description coincided so exactly for the most part with Solon's account. I was loth, however, to speak on the instant; for owing to lapse of time my recollection of his account was not sufficiently clear. So I decided that I ought not to relate it until I had first gone over it all carefully in my own mind. Consequently, I readily consented to the theme you proposed yesterday, since I thought that we should be reasonably well provided for the task of furnishing a satisfactory discourse—which in all such cases is the greatest task.

So it was that, as Hermocrates has said, the moment I left your place yesterday I began to relate to them the story as I recollected it, and after I parted from them I pondered it over during the night and recovered, as I may say, the whole story. Marvellous, indeed, is the way in which the lessons of one's childhood “grip the mind,” as the saying is. For myself, I know not whether I could recall to mind all that I heard yesterday; but as to the account I heard such a great time ago, I should be immensely surprised if a single detail of it has escaped me. I had then the greatest pleasure and amusement in hearing it, and the old man was eager to tell me, since I kept questioning him repeatedly, so that the story is stamped firmly on my mind like the encaustic designs of an indelible painting. Moreover, immediately after daybreak I related this same story to our friends here, so that they might share in my rich provision of discourse.

Timaeus 25d-26c

All above quotes are found starting here.

The above from Timaeus quite clearly states that Critias is telling the story from memory. Otherwise, he would have consulted his "family heirloom" manuscript from Solon.

The fact you are unaware of this, once again reveals your lack of knowledge on the topic. "lightweight"? No. Featherweight more like.

You claim that throughout Critias, this "manuscript" is referenced. If you know this, why did you quote another author's citation of Critias (the citation which I quoted for you and the rest reading here)?

There are several translations of both dialogues available free on the internet. By all means, feel free to quote and link to all these references to a written manuscript that was passed down through Critias' family.

Support your claim before it crumbles.

Harte

[nico_k]

As this isn't an academic site, I don't require anyone here (including myself) to be an authority in anything. Simply be able to make a reasoned argument and provide evidence for claims made if required.

And why is an unidentified piece of pottery relevant to the thread?

the situation degrades because people are not experts. should real science ever creep in here noone would know it.

[Leonardo]

the situation degrades because people are not experts. should real science ever creep in here noone would know it.

So, apart from the ad-homs you wish to throw because of some perceived superiority, can you answer my question please?

"How does an unidentified piece of pottery have any relevance to this thread?"

If you cannot answer the question, please do not resort to further inanities as a response.

Thank you.

[nico_k]

So, apart from the ad-homs you wish to throw because of some perceived superiority, can you answer my question please?

"How does an unidentified piece of pottery have any relevance to this thread?"

If you cannot answer the question, please do not resort to further inanities as a response.

Thank you.

its just a pot.

what can i say in support of atlantis that we could discuss? i can say that the national geological institute of a european union country has gone before the international geological community and said they have found atlantis. where do we go now?

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

Then please enlighten us with your superior intellect !

[Leonardo]

its just a pot.

Then what was your intention in posting the picture?

And asking if I could identify it?

Are you trolling?

what can i say in support of atlantis that we could discuss? i can say that the national geological institute of a european union country has gone before the international geological community and said they have found atlantis. where do we go now?

We wait for either confirmation, which I would consider extremely unlikely, or the inevitable, embarrassed silence.

[nico_k]

Then what was your intention in posting the picture?

And asking if I could identify it?

Are you trolling?

We wait for either confirmation, which I would consider extremely unlikely, or the inevitable, embarrassed silence.

and you wonder why it degrades right?

Then please enlighten us with your superior intellect !

you mean me and my pot?

[Leonardo]

and you wonder why it degrades right?

you mean me and my pot?

Thank you for the confirmation of your appearance here as a troll.

I now know not to bother responding to any more of your posts.

[nico_k]

Thank you for the confirmation of your appearance here as a troll.

I now know not to bother responding to any more of your posts.

thank you. that is very nice of you.

[Harte]

So, how is the word Atlantis proven Greek word when they don't even know the true etymology of the word Atlas. Since he's also a Titan god his name is more than likely pre- Greek.

Herodotus uses the same word for the sea Atlantis. If sea was already in the word (sea of atlas) why does Herodotus use the word sea/thalassa next to Atlantis...? Is he calling it the sea of atlas sea?

Why does an island name contain the word sea if it equates to sea of atlas?

It doesn't. The word "Atlantis" translates as the "of Atlas" part, whereas the word "thalassa" is one of the Ancient Greek words for "sea" after the ancient Greek primordial sea goddess.

Variations of the word "Atlantis" abound in Greek literature, as the phrase "of Atlas" is used many times over.

From the Oddysey:

'Tis a wooded isle, and therein dwells a goddess, daughter of Atlas of baneful mind, who knows the depths of every sea, and himself holds the tall pillars which keep earth and heaven apart.

The Greek:

νῆσος δενδρήεσσα, θεὰ δ᾽ ἐν δώματα ναίει,

Ἄτλαντος θυγάτηρ ὀλοόφρονος, ὅς τε θαλάσσης

πάσης βένθεα οἶδεν, ἔχει δέ τε κίονας αὐτὸς

μακράς, αἳ γαῖάν τε καὶ οὐρανὸν ἀμφὶς ἔχουσιν.

Source: Odyssey, Book 1 50-54

Harte

Edit: Much easier to read the above Greek if you click on "quote" as if to respond to my post. H.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Harte

[Harte]

"Anyway, suspect all you want. I'm a high school math teacher, not a Masonic NWO disinfo agent, regardless of what Freight Thompson says!

Harte"

i did not know heavy hitters in this field were math teachers. to me the heavy hitters would be government geologists, archaeologists and the odd credentialed historian. i know that quite a few of them are spending government money as if the big circular structure and enclosure they have found are real. maybe you can stop the madness?

I'm more of an expert on non-critical thinking (as a byproduct of my knowledge and application of critical thinking) than history itself.

Any knowledge I have and relate here is due to my own investigations into the possibility of the existence of Atlantis, which, at one point decades ago, I thought might have some historical validity.

I learned long ago that my considerations of historical Atlantis were simply incorrect.

Harte