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granpa

the myth of Atlantis in context

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Harte

http://religion.wiki...actoids/Critias

Athens was supposed to be Socrates' utopian Republic translated into the real world.

Yes, Granpa, it was Timaeus:

And now, Socrates, to make an end my preface, I am ready to tell you the whole tale. I will give you not only the general heads, but the particulars, as they were told to me. I will give you not only the general heads, but the particulars, as they were told to me.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians.

Timaeus 21a-27b

Harte

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The Puzzler

Notice here how Erechtheus is mentioned instead of Erichthonius, who might be a later invention.

Athenians thought of themselves as Erechtheidai, the "sons of Erechtheus".[2] In Homer's Iliad (2. 547–48) he is the son of "grain-giving Earth", reared by Athena.

In the contest for patronship of Athens between Poseidon and Athena, the salt spring on the Acropolis where Poseidon's trident struck was known as the sea of Erechtheus.

His reign was marked by the war between Athens and Eleusis, when the Eleusinians were commanded by Eumolpus, coming from Thrace.

In the following battle between the forces of Athens and Eleusis, Erechtheus won the battle and slew Eumolpus, but then himself fell, struck down by Poseidon's trident;according to fragments of Euripides' tragedy Erechtheus.Poseidon avenged his son Eumolpus' death by driving him into the earth with blows of his trident.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Erechtheus

This may indicate that a flood and earthquake hit Athens, which was very sizable and memorable (at the same time I place the people and war in context) maybe when the Athenians went down from earthquake and following flood at the same time the Atlanteans did.

Edited by The Puzzler

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granpa

don't overlook prometheus

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Atlantisresearch

Yes, Granpa, it was Timaeus:

Timaeus 21a-27b

Harte

Well this is cherry picking and you are distorting the context. Note how you missed quoting 25e. Critias is actually "amazed" to discover Solon's story of Atlantis has similarities with the ideal state (the conversation that took place a day before). They are not the same. 26d is actually contrasting the latter with Alantis by superimposing one onto the other. If Atlantis was fiction like the ideal state this wouldn't make sense.

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spacecowboy342

Well this is cherry picking and you are distorting the context. Note how you missed quoting 25e. Critias is actually "amazed" to discover Solon's story of Atlantis has similarities with the ideal state (the conversation that took place a day before). They are not the same. 26d is actually contrasting the latter with Alantis by superimposing one onto the other. If Atlantis was fiction like the ideal state this wouldn't make sense.

It might if it were being told this way for dramatic effect

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Harte

Well this is cherry picking and you are distorting the context. Note how you missed quoting 25e. Critias is actually "amazed" to discover Solon's story of Atlantis has similarities with the ideal state (the conversation that took place a day before). They are not the same. 26d is actually contrasting the latter with Alantis by superimposing one onto the other. If Atlantis was fiction like the ideal state this wouldn't make sense.

I overlooked nothing in the dozens of times I've read these (and other) Dialogues.

What you overlook here is that Critias (and the other characters) is actually Plato - in the same way that James Bond is actually Ian Fleming,

Harte

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nico_k

I'd love to get my teeth into something, but with no goal in sight to debate for, it's kinda unchallenging and depressing....

how about this:

atlantis is the kikkar of jehovah and the pen of geryon at gadiera is the enclosure [paradeisos]

governments/universities love throwing money at the idea of finding this believe me... forget atlantis, kikkar is where its at.

ps.. its nice you all have a place to hangout and be mean to each other.

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Harte

It usually doesn't come to blows, but, just in case, keep your guard up!

Harte

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nico_k

It usually doesn't come to blows, but, just in case, keep your guard up!

Harte

this forum has nothing to do with my bank account or what is happening in the world so why should i care? .

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Sir Wearer of Hats

I overlooked nothing in the dozens of times I've read these (and other) Dialogues.

What you overlook here is that Critias (and the other characters) is actually Plato - in the same way that James Bond is actually Ian Fleming,

Harte

There is some speculation that James Bond is somewhat based on someone Fleming worked with during WWII, a young member of the League of Ungentlemanly Warfare named Christopher Lee......

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jaylemurph

It might if it were being told this way for dramatic effect

You know, I cannot remember it once being pointed out here that Plato started out as a playwright. Which he did. (He later burned all his plays when he decided to become a philosopher.) So he would indeed know how to use dramatic effect.

--Jaylemurph

Edited by jaylemurph

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Harte

There is some speculation that James Bond is somewhat based on someone Fleming worked with during WWII, a young member of the League of Ungentlemanly Warfare named Christopher Lee......

It is Fleming's voice when Bond says something, however.

Harte

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kmt_sesh

Try this then, http://atlantis.haktanir.org/ch3.html.

Common sense from a random site aobout Atlantis-like stories.

"My conclusion: Since all these old civilizations mentioned Atlantis in a form or another, or the destruction of an Atlantis-like island and a big flood, it's hard to imagine that they've all been lying or re-telling a story told to them. People in those times were pretty interested in their stories and tradition was everything. I would rather guess that the story had a common root, based on evidence. The survivors of the destruction scattered and landed on the closest areas from the sunk island. Then the story of the sunk land was passed on, and became the basis of religion.

What exactly is a myth, the event itself, the location/size of the island, the tale coming from Egypt, the Atlanteans fighting Athens....

All of them you stupid, it is a crazy story! uhm, right

Not that modern, this obsession with floods seem to me. More common sense.

Plato is yet another, but more insane than others worldwide?

You can't deny the evident, how hard you try my friends :-)

Floods here, floods there, floods everywhere :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

But Plato left a crazy tale, next!

Yes, well, I had to stop reading it as soon as the article stated Mesoamerican civilizations wrote about Atlantis and even Lemuria. They certainly did not. This is not proper historical research but New Age fictional whimsy.

Equally and comically incorrect is that "all these old civilizations" mentioned Atlantis. Prior to Plato's Timaeus and Critias, there is simply no demonstrable attestation in any civilization of the Atlantis story as Plato wrote it. Yes, the word "Atlantis" is attested in a handful of Greek writings prior to Plato, but nothing in the manner as Plato describes it as an advanced island super-nation. Plato invented it.

There is no evidence that the tale came from Egypt. There is nothing in Egyptian lore that is even remotely similar to the Atlantis story.

Granpa's title for this thread mentions context. I myself always stress the context of something from ancient civilizations, because that is the only real way to understand the subject. Atlantis-believers habitually neglect the context of Plato's story. They neglect the events of Plato's time and what had become of his beloved Athens in his own time, which in the end is why he crafted his allegorical tale.

Edited by kmt_sesh
Clarification
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The Puzzler

how about this:

atlantis is the kikkar of jehovah and the pen of geryon at gadiera is the enclosure [paradeisos]

governments/universities love throwing money at the idea of finding this believe me... forget atlantis, kikkar is where its at.

ps.. its nice you all have a place to hangout and be mean to each other.

:w00t: Welcome!

the garden of eden? Yes, I recall I went there a few years back...

Edited by The Puzzler

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kmt_sesh

:w00t: Welcome!

the garden of eden? Yes, I recall I went there a few years back...

Did you get the T-shirt?

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The Puzzler

Did you get the T-shirt?

Yes, it says "I ate the apple".

Then I ran out of there, really fast.

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The Puzzler

The name of Mt Atlas in Berber is Douros, enduring - the name of a river in Portugal is Douro, very old, very large, enduring I can imagine - then you have the Dorians, a tough, enduring type of people imo. The Rabelo styled boats (of the Douro River) remind me of the ones in the Akrotiri pictures.

Rabelo_Douro_en%E2%80%93Porto.jpg

The earliest known people on Sicily are the Sicambi, who are reputed to have come from Iberia. I see a whole influx of these Iberians into the Med. in so many ways but so hard to prove.

Edited by The Puzzler

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kmt_sesh

Yes, it says "I ate the apple".

Then I ran out of there, really fast.

:lol:

Bravo!

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nico_k

Yes, it says "I ate the apple".

Then I ran out of there, really fast.

i don't think there where tshirts

1014307_10151691383085406_15987224_n.jpg

but so many people attended that i wish i had the tshirt concession.

re: context... when you own the kikkar you call it atlantis. when you own the enclosure you call it eden.

ps.. in response to your first response

kikkar

It is so used seven times in Genesis xiii, 10, 11, 12; xix, 17, 8, 29; also in 2 Sam. xviii, 23; 1 Kings vii, 46; ron.iv,17 and suggests that the name may have been derived from the windings of the river. Though uniformly rendered plain in the A.V, and perichoros in the Sept., it appears to have all the detiniteness of a proper name. It must be confessed that il is not easy to trace any connection between a "circular form" and the nature or aspect of the Jordan valley, and it is difficult not to suspect that kikkar is an archaic term which existed before the advent of the Hebrews, and was afterwards adopted into their language.

Edited by nico_k

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The Puzzler

I can see it etymologically would connect to circle. I also think Gadir, gate and garden have the same etymological root, gates, Gods, gardens, always through a gate to Gods garden, even Heaven has St Peters gate.

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nico_k

I can see it etymologically would connect to circle. I also think Gadir, gate and garden have the same etymological root, gates, Gods, gardens, always through a gate to Gods garden, even Heaven has St Peters gate.

the circular structure on a plain with the related enclosure are found in egypt, persia, mesopotamia etc. if plato actually wrote alcibiades1 then i would question whether he didn't rip his off from the persians and didn't publish it because he could not finish it without making the ripoff too obvious.

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The Puzzler

the circular structure on a plain with the related enclosure are found in egypt, persia, mesopotamia etc. if plato actually wrote alcibiades1 then i would question whether he didn't rip his off from the persians and didn't publish it because he could not finish it without making the ripoff too obvious.

Found in Troy and also Plato's Laws, or plains with low, round hills, which the enclosure is then built. Common enough but the continued mention of them doesn't escape me.

The Persians are def. part of the bigger picture - aligning with Plato's contemporary current affairs.

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Atlantisresearch

Solon visited Egypt. This is problematic to any skeptic. Secondly, Solon himself vouched for a "true" Atlantis. Again, this is another blow for the skeptics. Solon was one of the Seven Wise Men of Greece and Plato describes him as wise and trustworthy. Yet according to the skeptics we are to believe Solon was a liar.

IMO as far as historical source criticism goes, the skeptic position is actually irrational.

Edited by OliverDSmith

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The Puzzler

Solon visited Egypt. This is problematic to any skeptic. Secondly, Solon himself vouched for a "true" Atlantis. Again, this is another blow for the skeptics. Solon was one of the Seven Wise Men of Greece and Plato describes him as wise and trustworthy. Yet according to the skeptics we are to believe Solon was a liar.

IMO as far as historical source criticism goes, the skeptic position is actually irrational.

:tu:

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The Puzzler

Plato has given us a description that has been manipulated to start with - if Plato knows the story outside of the dialogue he may know it from a similar source he uses, such as Apaturia. He would have to know the story and know it came from Solon - outside the context of the dialogues.

----------------------

110314-science-rings-1031p.grid-5x2.jpg

A computer graphic shows the concentric rings that may have existed during Atlantis' ancient heyday. Scientists have seen evidence of such submerged structures beneath the vast marshlands of southern Spain's Dona Ana Park.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42072469/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/lost-city-atlantis-believed-found-spain/#.Uu98bMLxuM8

The people of Western Europe had a thriving maritime trading community all along the seaboard and inland, the area is abundant with precious minerals, it looks like an island of great size and isn't mentioned as part of Libya and Asia combined. It's in the vicinity of where Plato has it. It's in an earthquake zone.

The people may have spanned the strait and consisted of parts of North Africa also.

Edited by The Puzzler

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