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granpa

the myth of Atlantis in context

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The Puzzler

Troy was a legend always believed to have existed in Western Turkey and usually associated with either Ilion or Wilusa. Which can't be said for any claims for Atlantis as a place since no such extant claim pre-dates Plato. Also as opposed to the nice story of Schliemann having had the Iliad in one hand and a spade in the other Schliemann didn't actually discover Troy, Frank Calvert did. What Schliemann is responsible for is acquiring the equipment used in his "excavations" and ripping into the hill of Hisarlik indiscriminately. Often finding objects and making pronouncements as to whom they belonged in an effort to support his claim that he'd found objects from the time of the Trojan War and contemporary persons thereof. All the while effectively robbing Calvert of any recognition for his discovery or his efforts in excavating Hisarlik prior to Schliemann's takeover. Schliemann is not a man to be admired here. He was merely an opportunist with an agenda, namely fame and riches.

cormac

Who mentioned Troy before Homer?

Schliemann listened to his father read him The Iliad as a young boy, dreaming then of finding the place his father read to him about. He only became rich so he could follow his childhood dream. Whatever you want to say about him, you can hardly say his intention was superficial.

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Harambasha

Many Greeks must have visited Egypt, as would Romans.

Perhaps Egyptian priest came to Greece.

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Atlantisresearch

Critias claimed that he had Solon's manuscript?

Harte

Critias 113b. Basics again... Have you ever read Plato?

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Atlantisresearch

Troy was a legend always believed to have existed in Western Turkey and usually associated with either Ilion or Wilusa. Which can't be said for any claims for Atlantis as a place since no such extant claim pre-dates Plato. Also as opposed to the nice story of Schliemann having had the Iliad in one hand and a spade in the other Schliemann didn't actually discover Troy, Frank Calvert did. What Schliemann is responsible for is acquiring the equipment used in his "excavations" and ripping into the hill of Hisarlik indiscriminately. Often finding objects and making pronouncements as to whom they belonged in an effort to support his claim that he'd found objects from the time of the Trojan War and contemporary persons thereof. All the while effectively robbing Calvert of any recognition for his discovery or his efforts in excavating Hisarlik prior to Schliemann's takeover. Schliemann is not a man to be admired here. He was merely an opportunist with an agenda, namely fame and riches.

cormac

Atlantis appears in literature before Plato. Secondly Troy as a mythological place has been confirmed to have been real, so why couldn't Atlantis? Once again the skeptics are only cherry picking.

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Frank Merton

Atlantis appears in literature before Plato. Secondly Troy as a mythological place has been confirmed to have been real, so why couldn't Atlantis? Once again the skeptics are only cherry picking.

I don't know that Troy has been confirmed. A lot of settlements existed at various times in the general area Homer identified, and Schliemann excavated (more like dug at) one of them and claimed Troy, but he had no proof.

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cormac mac airt

Atlantis appears in literature before Plato. Secondly Troy as a mythological place has been confirmed to have been real, so why couldn't Atlantis? Once again the skeptics are only cherry picking.

Except as the name for the Atlantic Ocean in the form of "Atlantis Sea" (Herodotus) your evidence of Atlantis pre-existing Plato is what exactly? As to Troy it was never a myth, but a legend whose exact location had been lost but the area for same, Northwest Turkey, was known. This can't be claimed for Atlantis which was never mentioned as existing, let alone being located in the western Mediterranean prior to what Plato wrote.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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Leonardo

That both Neith and Athena were goddesses of war was a connection attempted by the Greeks...

...and Puzzler. :whistle:

You bought to light a good point.

If Plato disliked liars so much...

Not liars, Puzz, poets.

In this context, however, Plato was lumping poets in with the "Sophists" - who were the real objects of his scorn.

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Atlantisresearch

Except as the name for the Atlantic Ocean in the form of "Atlantis Sea" (Herodotus) your evidence of Atlantis pre-existing Plato is what exactly? As to Troy it was never a myth, but a legend whose exact location had been lost but the area for same, Northwest Turkey, was known. This can't be claimed for Atlantis which was never mentioned as existing, let alone being located in the western Mediterranean prior to what Plato wrote.

cormac

Atlantis first appears in a fragment by Hellanicus. To quote Castledon (1998):

"Plato's detractors have accused him of inventing the Atlantis myth in its entirety, but a book called Atlantis was written a century before".

And yes it is the same Atlantis, Hellanicus describes an island where Poseidon mates with Kelaino, while Critias describes Poseidon mating with Kleito on the island of Atlantis. Kleito and Kelaino have translation variants (Klito, Kelano etc) and closely match each other.

Edited by OliverDSmith

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Leonardo

Atlantis first appears in a fragment by Hellanicus. To quote Castledon (1998):

"Plato's detractors have accused him of inventing the Atlantis myth in its entirety, but a book called Atlantis was written a century before".

And yes it is the same Atlantis, Hellanicus describes an island where Poseidon mates with Kelaino, while Critias describes Poseidon mating with Kleito on the island of Atlantis. Kleito and Kelaino have translation variants (Klito, Kelano etc) and closely match each other.

Source please.

Castleden's quote does not at all suggest it is the "same Atlantis" and, in fact, the title is even disputed.

That there existed an "Isle of the Blessed" in Greek mythology, and that such a place was used by many authors in various works, is uncontroversial and does not at all support all (or any) those authors explicitly referring to, or drawing from, one another in any of their writings.

Suggesting this was the case with Plato, that he referred to Hellanicus' earlier work, or that part of Critias is derived from Hellanicus, is speculation of the highest order.

Edited to add:

This part of your post...

...Hellanicus describes an island where Poseidon mates with Kelaino...

...is inaccurate. This site relates what the surviving fragment says, which is...

"Poseidon mated with Celaeno, and their son Lycus was settled by his father in the Isles of the Blest and made immortal."

...and does not support your statement that Celaeno lived on the island, or that Poseidon mated with her there. Additionally, while Hellanicus states the son of this union was Lycus, Plato relates the first-born of Poseidon's union with Cleito was Atlas - and he was one of twins. There is very little actual similarity between the tales except for Poseidon, an island, and a woman he mates with whose name begins with the Greek "K" (or "C").

Edited by Leonardo
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cormac mac airt

Atlantis first appears in a fragment by Hellanicus. To quote Castledon (1998):

"Plato's detractors have accused him of inventing the Atlantis myth in its entirety, but a book called Atlantis was written a century before".

And yes it is the same Atlantis, Hellanicus describes an island where Poseidon mates with Kelaino, while Critias describes Poseidon mating with Kleito on the island of Atlantis. Kleito and Kelaino have translation variants (Klito, Kelano etc) and closely match each other.

And you can tell that Hellanicus' mention of Atlantis is exactly the same Atlantis that Plato writes about how exactly, since there are only fragmentary remains of Hellanicus' works? Herodotus placed his Atlanteans in northwest Africa, Plato placed his Atlantis just outside the Straits of Gibraltar so can you, with any specificity, claim to know where Hellanicus placed his Atlantis and that it's one and the same as Plato's and not that Plato reworked the idea for his own purposes?

cormac

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H. Drake

Atlantis appears in literature before Plato. Secondly Troy as a mythological place has been confirmed to have been real, so why couldn't Atlantis? Once again the skeptics are only cherry picking.

Because the site at Hissarlik actually has some archaeological significance? Even if it isn't Troy itself, it might have been an inspiration for the Iliad. Atlantis, on the other hand, has no archaeological evidence whatsoever to support its existence. It begins and ends with Plato's dialogues. Which is why most of the believers have placed it all over the globe in a desperate effort to keep the myth alive, despite Plato being quite specific about its location.

Edited by H. Drake

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nico_k

My position is that Atlantis was a real place while denying anything spectacular about the island. Robert Scranton (whose theory is closest to mine) argued that Atlantis was a Neolithic drainage cove, my identification is with Sesklo. This is why our theories have academic credibility, but don't sell well. The only theories or books on Atlantis that make ££££ are the sensational or crazy ideas.

hi oliver

so which ones were made by atlanteans? these

voloss.jpg

or this type?

sesklo.jpg

cheers

nic

ps have you seen this?

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2013SolED...5.1511D

Edited by nico_k

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Van Gorp

Some nice fact to know about Atlantis:

It's assumed to be an island and a former land.

That's why it is called Atlantis.

At-Land-Is (the Old land which formed an island)

PS: Is-land we all know in English. But do the English speaking friends know "Is" acually means is-land?

PS2: So in fact an Island is an Is-land. So forget Iceland as the land of Ice, because then we should call call Greenland Iceland.

Ok, back to topic :-)

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RedSquirrel

I thought "Atlantis" meant "Island of Atlas" in Greek... though I have been wrong many a times.

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questionmark

I thought "Atlantis" meant "Island of Atlas" in Greek... though I have been wrong many a times.

correct, the ancient Greeks did not write in a language created 2000 years in the future.

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Van Gorp

correct, the ancient Greeks did not write in a language created 2000 years in the future.

Who is talking about a language created 2000 years after ancient Greeks?

Wrong.

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RedSquirrel

Some nice fact to know about Atlantis:

It's assumed to be an island and a former land.

That's why it is called Atlantis.

At-Land-Is (the Old land which formed an island)

PS: Is-land we all know in English. But do the English speaking friends know "Is" acually means is-land?

PS2: So in fact an Island is an Is-land. So forget Iceland as the land of Ice, because then we should call call Greenland Iceland.

Ok, back to topic :-)

Who is talking about a language created 2000 years after ancient Greeks?

Wrong.

I believe the problem is the language you used to dissect meaning out of Atlantis. Can you back up the "At-land-is" using Greek language, non-modern?

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Harte

Critias 113b. Basics again... Have you ever read Plato?

Of course. Have you?

(113a)

But before I begin my account, there is still a small point which I ought to explain, lest you should be surprised at frequently hearing Greek names given to barbarians. The reason of this you shall now learn. Since Solon was planning to make use of the story for his own poetry, he had found, on investigating the meaning of the names, that those Egyptians who had first written them down had translated them into their own tongue. So he himself in turn recovered the original sense of each name and, rendering it into our tongue,

(113b)

wrote it down so. And these very writings were in the possession of my grandfather and are actually now in mine, and when I was a child I learnt them all by heart. Therefore if the names you hear are just like our local names, do not be at all astonished; for now you know the reason for them. The story then told was a long one, and it began something like this.

Source: Perseus.

The above clearly states that Solon had written down his Hellenized versions of the names of people and places, and states exactly nothing at all about any manuscript regarding Solon's planned poem about Atlantis, which, IIRC (do I need to look this up for you?) no party in either dialogue claims Solon actually wrote.

IOW, even if every word in the two dialogues were true, there would still be no "manuscript" written by Solon for anyone to possess.

Harte

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Atlantisresearch

Castleden's quote does not at all suggest it is the "same Atlantis" and, in fact, the title is even disputed.

A sentence after Castledon writes: "This bears similarities with Plato's account, where Poseidon mates with Cleito".

While Hellanicus' work is translated either as Atlantis or Atlantias, these are very similar (only +- the a).

Suggesting this was the case with Plato, that he referred to Hellanicus' earlier work, or that part of Critias is derived from Hellanicus, is speculation of the highest order.

Critias 109e references "hazy reports" about the Greeks forgotten history, including Atlantis. So according to Critias the story of Atlantis can be found cryptically in sources that pre-date Plato. Hellanicus is a possible example, Pindar is another.

...is inaccurate. This site relates what the surviving fragment says, which is...

"Poseidon mated with Celaeno, and their son Lycus was settled by his father in the Isles of the Blest and made immortal."

...and does not support your statement that Celaeno lived on the island, or that Poseidon mated with her there.

Actually that is an inaccurate translation. There is no ",". So if you read it correctly Poseidon is described as having mated with Kelaeno on the island(s) where Lycus was settled. This is how Luce (1978) also read it.

Additionally, while Hellanicus states the son of this union was Lycus, Plato relates the first-born of Poseidon's union with Cleito was Atlas - and he was one of twins. There is very little actual similarity between the tales except for Poseidon, an island, and a woman he mates with whose name begins with the Greek "K" (or "C").

They are described as having mated on an island, secondly their names appear similar: Kleito and Kelaino (obviously more than just beginning with a "K" ending also in o). Trying to downplay these similarities is not objective.

Edited by OliverDSmith

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Van Gorp

I believe the problem is the language you used to dissect meaning out of Atlantis. Can you back up the "At-land-is" using Greek language, non-modern?

For me, I don't see any problem.

Why should it be backed using a Greek language could be my question.

At-Land-Is could be very well stemming from a more ancient language than the Greek rascale.

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RedSquirrel

For me, I don't see any problem.

Why should it be backed using a Greek language could be my question.

At-Land-Is could be very well stemming from a more ancient language than the Greek rascale.

Alright, what language? I think the issue here is we have the ability to dissect the Greek languages, we have the meanings presented. Is there any chance you would be willing to educate me in how you reached that revelation?

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Van Gorp

Alright, what language? I think the issue here is we have the ability to dissect the Greek languages, we have the meanings presented. Is there any chance you would be willing to educate me in how you reached that revelation?

Well, off course.

My idea is that Greek isn't the oldest language, not so strange i think.

I think not much before the Greek and Roman language took control of history, there was a PIE in action -> meaning a root language composed of simple words, only pronounced differently from location to location. No rocket science, no thousand years plan, the prebabylon language was real and not that old.

Is, is the root alos for Is-olated.

Land is obvious, and it is not because not used as such in Greek language but used in Germanic languages that this part can't be older than Greek.

At is Old. Still in many Germanic dialects.

Bottom line is: keep talking your local dialect, forget the meaningless Greek Fables :-)

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RedSquirrel

So english is the language most likely to have a root in the word 'Atlantis' according to you? Proto-english?

I don't want to jump to conclusions about what you mean, I'd like it in your own words.

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cormac mac airt

From the "Fragmenta Historicorum Graecorum", page 165 of the PDF:

Cum duabus vero concubuit Neptunus,

quarum altera, Celaeno, Lycum peperit, quem Neptunus in

Fortunatorum insulas habitatum misit; ex altera, Alcyone,

filiam procreavit Aethusam formosissimam, Eleutheris ex

Apolline matrem , filios vero Hyrieum et Hyperenorem.

Which means OliverDSmith is equating the Fortunate Isles/Isles of the Blessed, reserved for the honored dead, with Atlantis. I guess the peoples of Athens must have been fighting ghosts then.

cormac

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questionmark

From the "Fragmenta Historicorum Graecorum", page 165 of the PDF:

Which means OliverDSmith is equating the Fortunate Isles/Isles of the Blessed, reserved for the honored dead, with Atlantis. I guess the peoples of Athens must have been fighting ghosts then.

cormac

Then Atlantis was on the Canary Islands, as Fortunate Isles was their Roman name.

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