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Regi

Unsolved Triple Murder, North Carolina, 1972

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micahc
6 minutes ago, Vincennes said:

I did go back and find the photo.  There is room on the table, right beside the purse.  So to me the separation is odd, although you right it could be the purse was on the chair and she, herself, got something out of it but ,in view of the murder, I tend to look more toward another reason.  And I'm putting this toward your theory.  Someone she knew from the garage but was immediately uncomfortable and didn't know why they were there.  No time to hide it but she just put it out of sight.  That's exactly what I would do.  

she must not have known their names, since she did say their names on the phone call. So it could be people who claimed to be so an so's friend, spouse or something. just enough to get them to let them in.  

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micahc
2 minutes ago, Vincennes said:

YES !  That's what I meant exactly.  

The only thing is I think the son-in-law fits a profile that would think the silver plate was valuable PLUS she might have thought, "Oh here he is again and he probably wants to borrow money and here I am carrying cash" and also ditch it because he was there.  

yeah but remember my new theory is, the son in law is innocent and the call happened just like he said it did.  but your thought is also valid for the son in law did it theory.  didn't the photo show the bag unzipped?  I will have to go look.

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Vincennes
1 minute ago, micahc said:

she must not have known their names, since she did say their names on the phone call. So it could be people who claimed to be so an so's friend, spouse or something. just enough to get them to let them in.  

Or if she only knew one of their names (apply your theory) from the garage and the other two were "friends" what might strike her was that they then became not one person she knew but THREE Black men.  

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Vincennes
1 minute ago, micahc said:

yeah but remember my new theory is, the son in law is innocent and the call happened just like he said it did.  but your thought is also valid for the son in law did it theory.  didn't the photo show the bag unzipped?  I will have to go look.

I couldn't see it that well in the photo I found.

 

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micahc
Just now, Vincennes said:

Or if she only knew one of their names (apply your theory) from the garage and the other two were "friends" what might strike her was that they then became not one person she knew but THREE Black men.  

I went back and looked and the photo is unclear as to whether you can see the cash. The caption on the website I viewed it refers to it as an envelop full of money on the chair.  So its not a bank bag?  I always thought it was.

https://ididitforjodie.com/2013/12/29/overlapping-murders-presidential-edition-travels-with-cecil/

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Vincennes
2 minutes ago, micahc said:

yeah but remember my new theory is, the son in law is innocent and the call happened just like he said it did.  but your thought is also valid for the son in law did it theory.  didn't the photo show the bag unzipped?  I will have to go look.

I just have trouble putting aside the son in law ..   BUT that doesn't mean I'm not drawn to your theory.

 

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micahc
Posted (edited)

look at the bottom where the kitchen floor begins. whats the thing on the floor. It looks like a tv remote or a cell phone, but of course its not a cell phone. cant remember when we got tv clickers.  what do you think that is?

 

another thought, Bryce or the son could have been the one that let them in and Virginia was never told who they said they were.  

Edited by micahc

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Vincennes
5 minutes ago, micahc said:

I went back and looked and the photo is unclear as to whether you can see the cash. The caption on the website I viewed it refers to it as an envelop full of money on the chair.  So its not a bank bag?  I always thought it was.

https://ididitforjodie.com/2013/12/29/overlapping-murders-presidential-edition-travels-with-cecil/

It looks like a bag to me not an envelope.  You are right though, the purse is definitely open, I didn't notice that.  Then I will change where I would lay my purse.  There was food on that table, I would never lay my purse on a table with food on it, I would put it on the chair.  So that means she wasn't hiding the bank bag, she was getting something out of her purse and brought it up from the chair.  Was there a plate of food for her ?  Because I'm eating, I go in and get my purse from the chair to get something, put it on the table but I'd close it normally, especially that type of purse.  If you don't it would be in danger of falling off the table and spilling.  

 

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micahc
1 minute ago, Vincennes said:

It looks like a bag to me not an envelope.  You are right though, the purse is definitely open, I didn't notice that.  Then I will change where I would lay my purse.  There was food on that table, I would never lay my purse on a table with food on it, I would put it on the chair.  So that means she wasn't hiding the bank bag, she was getting something out of her purse and brought it up from the chair.  Was there a plate of food for her ?  Because I'm eating, I go in and get my purse from the chair to get something, put it on the table but I'd close it normally, especially that type of purse.  If you don't it would be in danger of falling off the table and spilling.  

 

I just see the plate on the coffee table. I am thinking its bobby's.  they didn't get home til 9 pm, so I am thinking the plate was bobby's late snack.  Mothers always fix a plate for their children even at college age.  

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Vincennes

 

But tell me why those people all lined up in the bathtub.  Were they killed one by one while the others stood there ?  Doesn't make sense.  I'd wouldn't line up and wait unless I was totally over powered and I'd choose a bullet rather than letting them put me in a tub.  

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micahc
Just now, Vincennes said:

 

But tell me why those people all lined up in the bathtub.  Were they killed one by one while the others stood there ?  Doesn't make sense.  I'd wouldn't line up and wait unless I was totally over powered and I'd choose a bullet rather than letting them put me in a tub.  

I think it could either be torture to find something, and it was to ensure death once they got what they wanted or gave up. I think one of them was pure evil, but it could also be they could be identified if the Durhams lived. I think they had a gun for control, but the killers did not want to make the noise of shooting unless they had to.  Wasn't Virginia already dead when she was lined up?  I think the other two died of drowning, but she died of strangulation. I am doing that from memory.  

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Vincennes
2 minutes ago, micahc said:

I think it could either be torture to find something, and it was to ensure death once they got what they wanted or gave up. I think one of them was pure evil, but it could also be they could be identified if the Durhams lived. I think they had a gun for control, but the killers did not want to make the noise of shooting unless they had to.  Wasn't Virginia already dead when she was lined up?  I think the other two died of drowning, but she died of strangulation. I am doing that from memory.  

Part of what I have forgotten but yes, I think you're right.  Wonder why strangulation for Virginia.  The young one didn't have a gun ?  Or again, like you said, were they trying not to make noise.  Noise level seems unlikely to me though because that house didn't have any close neighbors, as I remember.  So why strangle ?

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Vincennes
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, micahc said:

I think it could either be torture to find something, and it was to ensure death once they got what they wanted or gave up. I think one of them was pure evil, but it could also be they could be identified if the Durhams lived. I think they had a gun for control, but the killers did not want to make the noise of shooting unless they had to.  Wasn't Virginia already dead when she was lined up?  I think the other two died of drowning, but she died of strangulation. I am doing that from memory.  

Yes, there is an evil, madness type thing in the way they were killed. 

Eye's giving out have to call it a night  :st

Edited by Vincennes

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micahc
4 minutes ago, Vincennes said:

Yes, there is an evil, madness type thing in the way they were killed. 

Eye's giving out have to call it a night  :st

good night. sleep well. 

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Vincennes
On 10/6/2015 at 10:38 AM, Vincennes said:

I think you really have some excellent points in this post . Please know I'm not dismissing the rest of them by my snip. Your point regarding the guy who discovered the jeep picking up his kid at 11:00 pm from a school event is EXACTLY what I was trying to say re. the library closing early IF the storm had been the blizzard it has now become. SCHOOLS close things and/or call off events at pretty much the drop of a hat. They are managed by PUBLIC employees, teachers, etc. who get paid whether they are open or not.

I hope you're still mulling over the drug connection because I do have some thoughts on that because when I first entered this thread that was my primary thought. That's because I lived for about 10 years in a suburb in the Detroit area. I actually had the charming experience of taking my new car in for servicing only to have them tell me they had to send for a part and it took over a week to obtain that part (BS).

When I did get my car back driving home, I happened to put my hand down in the seat and pulled out a swizzle stick drink memento from a downtown Detroit hotel. That took my attention to the mileage, they seem to have forgotten to disconnect it or did so a little late in the game because my car had an extra 670 miles on it ! That's when I noticed every screw on the interior trim of the car showed that it had been tampered with, including those that would remove the door panels. There were certain flowers packed in with dirt embedded in my bumper that only grow in very upper Michigan and Canada. Oh yes, I did go to that dealer himself (a large, multi make dealership ) reported it to the dealer and I will NEVER forget that was the only time in my life I looked in the guys eyes across the desk from me and realized if I didn't shut up quickly enough this guy would just as soon call in goons in that very office to shut me up. I truly think that would have bothered him less than talking to me !

I'm only telling you this because it does relate to what I see might have been the possible drug connection. You see I found out later, the auto dealer in my case lived on one of the multiple Michigan lakes. In fact, he owned an island on one of those lakes and that's where his home was located.

Now compare that to the Durham's split level. It's certainly a nice home but it really doesn't reflect any kind of major money such as drugs bring in. It wasn't really much more than a Blue Collar worker's home. That sets my mind that it's a long shot Bryce and Virginia were into drug dealing themselves. I think you have to dismiss their own involvement before you look toward someone else. That takes me to Troy's possible involvement. Because if Troy is involved, I think he was looking for bigger money than just running $2,500.00 bags of marijuana. I think his desire might have been to TAKE OVER the dealership and thereby create a perfect distribution location for drug shipments out of Florida. Like the dealer I ran into, that would give Troy a location to accept drugs from Florida, pack them in other cars and send them off throughout the upper states. You see they love to use various other license plates that are available them multiple ways in a dealership. That's what the DEA pointed out to me with my car. Not flashy, 4-door family model and if you run the license plate comes back to people who never had even a traffic ticket on their record. Perfect to go across that Canadian border and not be stopped or really questioned.

I've done so poorly expressing myself lately, I hope I'm coming through here. It's that this wasn't over just simple drug packages here and there, it was over control of that dealership and everything it would have afforded. Now you would be talking real money.

This brings me to one other suspect and that's the "partner" with Bryce in the dealership. Who the heck was that partner ???? In all of our digging I don't think I've seen ANY mention of 1) What kind of partner was he ? or 2) MOST IMPORTANT, WHO he was !!!!!!!!

Now I find that freaking odd that there was a "partner" who is only mentioned a couple of times in the multiple articles each of us have read and each time no name is used. Could it be a partner that wanted set Bryce up, (family man type - just like my car) and then use the dealership behind his back? :w00t: ! I can you one thing for sure and certain if that partner was anything like the dealer I dealt with, you wouldn't have found his name in anything either. I also have to seriously consider the no facts reported in this as being important facts.

That's my "War and Peace" contribution for today ~~ :yes:

I went back through the thread and found this which is one of my own theories.  Could the dealership have brought in some drug types that might have comprised the three men ?

I was trying to find more original photos of the scene but didn't find many.  

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micahc
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Vincennes said:

I went back through the thread and found this which is one of my own theories.  Could the dealership have brought in some drug types that might have comprised the three men ?

I was trying to find more original photos of the scene but didn't find many.  

I have never been a fan of the drug theory, but it does appear they were looking for something. maybe one of their employees was involved in some criminal enterprise and the killers thought Bryce was in on it.

 

I got to thinking about how it unfolded. Do we know what room the phone is in? Is it the kitchen?  I just don't understand why they would take the two men to the bathroom together?  Why leave her alone, and if they are in control of everyone, why bother beating them together?  Or why not all three?  So I am wondering if she was hiding in the kitchen or another room and made a break for the phone.  I think there is a back door in the kitchen, so I wish she had gone there.  If they are trying to get information about something in the home, you would think they would get it from the Mr. and Mrs. Durham not the son.  The killers are not excluding her because she is a woman. they eventually brutally murder her and pile her on her son, and husband's body. Made me think, the just didn't know she was there until they caught her on the phone. That would make is less likely its the SNL. 

Another odd thing. The foot stool is laying on the couch. Cards have fallen off the coffee table/ottoman, while a drink is balanced precariously on the ottoman.  It appears there could have been a struggle at one point, but why wasn't the drink spilled?  One article said there was a plate of partially eaten baked chicken on the kitchen table.  Not sure it was the plate that stored the chicken in the fridge that someone took out to make a plate, perhaps the plate on the ottoman.  But why didn't that drink fall over?  Could it have been a plate made by one of the killers? Perhaps before they found Virginia, the least sophisticated killer, decided to make him a plate while the other killers are still beating the men.  Just a thought. you would think that drink would have easily spilled if it was there when the smaller foot stool was placed on the couch and ottoman. just a thought.

 

btw, I made another comment on the JB murder.

Edited by micahc

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Vincennes
1 hour ago, micahc said:

I have never been a fan of the drug theory, but it does appear they were looking for something. maybe one of their employees was involved in some criminal enterprise and the killers thought Bryce was in on it

Been thinking it over and can't quite dismiss the drug theory.  Main reason is the dealership's location, right on the north/south corridor.  I know employees at the dealership I uncovered were involved, plus that gives them a reason to think money might be in the house OR could they have wanted the dealership in someone's hands that would be involved, knew the kids were too young to run it and that and would go for sale and the rest was all a cover.  One reason the take over possibility comes to mind is that there isn't any evidence the Ds had been living high.  My dealer in Michigan (still in business by the way) lived on his own private island.  (His name was Iranian or Syrian and he hid that under an abbreviation).

I also used to live in a little town in Ohio right off the main north/south corridor and my friend in real estate had an experience with that.  She got a call from a guy wanting to look at a house which was right off one of the exits.  What he needed was a house with separate barn, house had to have a back door access to the barn.  Would she show one to him.  She did.  Young guy, no one with him.   Problem got to be, he reached in his car, pulled out a brief case and wanted to give her $150,000 in CASH right then and there, asking price, and asked her what she'd charge to handle the deal without him being involved and wanted to argue with her when she said she could not do that.  She left real estate soon after that.  LOL  

So I can't totally close that theory as being motive.  

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Vincennes
1 hour ago, micahc said:

I got to thinking about how it unfolded. Do we know what room the phone is in? Is it the kitchen?  I just don't understand why they would take the two men to the bathroom together?  Why leave her alone, and if they are in control of everyone, why bother beating them together?  Or why not all three?  So I am wondering if she was hiding in the kitchen or another room and made a break for the phone.  I think there is a back door in the kitchen, so I wish she had gone there.  If they are trying to get information about something in the home, you would think they would get it from the Mr. and Mrs. Durham not the son.  The killers are not excluding her because she is a woman. they eventually brutally murder her and pile her on her son, and husband's body. Made me think, the just didn't know she was there until they caught her on the phone. That would make is less likely its the SNL. 

Another odd thing. The foot stool is laying on the couch. Cards have fallen off the coffee table/ottoman, while a drink is balanced precariously on the ottoman.  It appears there could have been a struggle at one point, but why wasn't the drink spilled?  One article said there was a plate of partially eaten baked chicken on the kitchen table.  Not sure it was the plate that stored the chicken in the fridge that someone took out to make a plate, perhaps the plate on the ottoman.  But why didn't that drink fall over?  Could it have been a plate made by one of the killers? Perhaps before they found Virginia, the least sophisticated killer, decided to make him a plate while the other killers are still beating the men.  Just a thought. you would think that drink would have easily spilled if it was there when the smaller foot stool was placed on the couch and ottoman. just a thought.

 

btw, I made another comment on the JB murder.

I think there was a kitchen wall phone but there might have been others.  I do wish we had more and better photos.

Yes, I think the glass should have been spilled had that table been thrown with force BUT if it was just upended and placed there I think if it was wet from condensation on the bottom it might be enough to "glue" it on a little.  

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micahc
2 minutes ago, Vincennes said:

 

So I can't totally close that theory as being motive.  

I wouldn't say its on the north south corridor, certainly not then. However, I could see someone thinking the Durhams had a pile of cash somewhere. I once thought about that illegal used car scam, and wondered if Bryce ran across the proof in some old records. Perhaps he called the person he bought the dealership from and confronted him. If the previous dealer had run the odometers back on the used car inventory, then Bryce paid too much for the cars too.  Perhaps he threated to go to the DA the next week, and the killers were hired to get the paperwork, and kill Bryce.  that might explain why it happened during a storm, because it couldn't wait.  

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Vincennes
44 minutes ago, micahc said:

I wouldn't say its on the north south corridor, certainly not then. However, I could see someone thinking the Durhams had a pile of cash somewhere. I once thought about that illegal used car scam, and wondered if Bryce ran across the proof in some old records. Perhaps he called the person he bought the dealership from and confronted him. If the previous dealer had run the odometers back on the used car inventory, then Bryce paid too much for the cars too.  Perhaps he threated to go to the DA the next week, and the killers were hired to get the paperwork, and kill Bryce.  that might explain why it happened during a storm, because it couldn't wait.  

Now that's certainly a thought.  I wonder how easy it was to turn back odometers back then ?

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micahc
3 minutes ago, Vincennes said:

Now that's certainly a thought.  I wonder how easy it was to turn back odometers back then ?

that was one of the rumors at the time. it had to do with a used car scam but they never found proof.   https://www.wataugademocrat.com/

"A popular theory of the time was the Durhams had met their demise because Bryce had revealed the ringleaders of a car dealership scam in Surry County that involved rolling back the miles on vehicles before selling them to unknowing customers ."

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