+and-then Posted February 18, 2014 #26 Share Posted February 18, 2014 How do you know? You're presuming in the favor of the regime in the new state of Iranq with no evidence. Maybe I'm putting some holes in this air bag of blind moral clarity, so yeah, if that's what "moralizing" is. Short of being on the ground there, how does anyone KNOW? Are you putting forth a theory that these people were not being trained in handling explosives for a suicide/homicide bombing? Is it really that far out of the realm of possibility that this is what they would be doing? Or is it that you believe that because there isn't enough evidence provided to convict them in a western court, they must be presumed to be innocent? Your words tend to support these men who were doing this. That tells me there are situations in which you might feel it justified for them to randomly kill bystanders as an act of "resistance". If you are then you are - that's on you. But don't expect others to jump in that line. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Cursed Posted February 18, 2014 #27 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Appears they got that suicide thing down pat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likely Guy Posted February 19, 2014 #28 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) What the hell is "innocent" people? These guys want to put that bomb on the target that gives them the best possible chance of political and legal reform in the country.... Here are a few innocent people killed by bombs over a two month period last year; 26 Aug 2013 - Woman and child in car by roadside bomb in Kana'an, east of Baquba 25 Aug 2013 - 8 year old son of policeman by bomb at home in Baquba 19 Aug 2013 - Child and civilian by roadside bomb targeting police patrol in Al-B'aj, 120 km west of Mosul 10 Aug 2013 - 8 year old child by bomb in video games shop in central Al-Madaen 10 Aug 2013 - Two, possibly children, by roadside bomb near park in Zubeidiyah, 25 km south of Baghdad 7 Aug 2013 - Young girl by roadside bomb targeting police patrol in Sumer, east Mosul 3 Aug 2013 - Man and his 11 yr old son by roadside bomb near their shop in Shuhada Street, central Tikrit 31 Jul 2013 - 14-year-old girl by roadside bomb in outdoor cafe in central Mosul 25 Jul 2013 - 2, including16-year-old boy, by roadside bomb near popular cafe in Kamaliya, east Baghdad 25 Jul 2013 - Man, his wife and their son by magnetic bomb attached to their car in central Dujail 25 Jul 2013 - Child by roadside bomb in Mosul 17 Jul 2013 - Three children by bomb while swimming in Al-Shakha river in Sweedi, Wajihiya 11 Jul 2013 - Child by bomb in tyre in the Military Quarter in Touzkhormatoo 8 Jul 2013 - 4-5 women and children by car bomb near policeman's home in Mishraq, Hamam Alel 30 Jun 2013 - 17 year old girl by roadside bomb near Dawr, north of Baghdad 27 Jun 2013 - 3 year old girl by roadside bomb targeting Sahwa member's home in central Al-Madaen Source: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/incidents/page1 Edited February 19, 2014 by Likely Guy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Lotus Posted February 19, 2014 #29 Share Posted February 19, 2014 that's tragic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud the mackem Posted February 20, 2014 #30 Share Posted February 20, 2014 So let me get this straight, 21 people without names or stories, who had irreconcilable differences with Al Qaeda, but fought against the crumbling Shiite government of Iran's new best friend in the world, Iraq, die sudden grisly deaths, and if we're not celebrating over it, our voices get culled! Which we then celebrate even further! Is this a cheer leading rehearsal or a debate forum? Because we're so sure of who the good guys are from the bad guys over there, and thus suggesting that maybe we don't was unacceptable! Really?! I don't know what/who else was "cleaned" here but I know for sure I didn't cuss, and I didn't say anything insane. I do remember that I asked questions, and referred to the Supreme Islamic Council, not to be a smartalec but because I'm trying to figure out how easy it is for you guys to pick political "sides" here when we're thousands of miles away from the souls of human beings we don't know split on a stick about. Maybe they're more opposed to Al Qaeda than we are. Maybe they're more opposed to Iran than we are. Maybe they'd be much better officials than the ones currently in office. Just trying to figure out where our values lie. Please, don't be so scared of that, that we're even compelled to silence it! Should I think that the former (or current?) members of the IRA deserve to be run over by cars, or shot through the head by the Queen's snipers, or poisoned by sexy agents down at the pub, or otherwise blown up in a tragic accident? Is it really this easy to just presume that insurgents, "militants", and rebels are evil by default? At this point the question is begged. The government of Iraq: What's so great about it? I think everyone posting here is of good character and so I'm guessing that there's a silent patriotism that's fueling the celebration and the moral clarity. But even so, the foreign militaries of the West have abandoned combat operations in Iraq long ago so who knows who's best when the regime's not worth fighting for anymore? I do know that the West's record of supporting corrupt and oppressive regimes in the Middle East is more the rule than the exception. So you'll all just have to forgive my skepticism here unfortunately. Not to risk making the understatement of the year, but I do not look at Iraq today and see the world I want my children growing up in. Describing the state of affairs in Iraq today, I think the word hellscape would be closer to the mark. Maybe the West fought so the current regime could be overthrown? Are we really satisfied with what our money has bought us over there? I expect a little more bang for the buck than that, sorry. I would hope for a few questions more than none, as well. The sad fact is that they are killing off each other instead of living peacefully,and will continue to do so,as they have been doing long before we got there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted February 20, 2014 #31 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Short of being on the ground there, how does anyone KNOW? Exactly, that's my point. We don't know, but I had no indication of that from anyone, until this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted February 20, 2014 #32 Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) Here are a few innocent people killed by bombs over a two month period last year; 26 Aug 2013 - Woman and child in car by roadside bomb in Kana'an, east of Baquba 25 Aug 2013 - 8 year old son of policeman by bomb at home in Baquba 19 Aug 2013 - Child and civilian by roadside bomb targeting police patrol in Al-B'aj, 120 km west of Mosul 10 Aug 2013 - 8 year old child by bomb in video games shop in central Al-Madaen 10 Aug 2013 - Two, possibly children, by roadside bomb near park in Zubeidiyah, 25 km south of Baghdad 7 Aug 2013 - Young girl by roadside bomb targeting police patrol in Sumer, east Mosul 3 Aug 2013 - Man and his 11 yr old son by roadside bomb near their shop in Shuhada Street, central Tikrit 31 Jul 2013 - 14-year-old girl by roadside bomb in outdoor cafe in central Mosul 25 Jul 2013 - 2, including16-year-old boy, by roadside bomb near popular cafe in Kamaliya, east Baghdad 25 Jul 2013 - Man, his wife and their son by magnetic bomb attached to their car in central Dujail 25 Jul 2013 - Child by roadside bomb in Mosul 17 Jul 2013 - Three children by bomb while swimming in Al-Shakha river in Sweedi, Wajihiya 11 Jul 2013 - Child by bomb in tyre in the Military Quarter in Touzkhormatoo 8 Jul 2013 - 4-5 women and children by car bomb near policeman's home in Mishraq, Hamam Alel 30 Jun 2013 - 17 year old girl by roadside bomb near Dawr, north of Baghdad 27 Jun 2013 - 3 year old girl by roadside bomb targeting Sahwa member's home in central Al-Madaen Source: http://www.iraqbodyc...incidents/page1 It's so bad when their bombs kill innocent children and women but not ours. We ignore that. We don't protest ourselves doing the same thing, also for reasons we know nothing about. We just presume that our politics make us the good judges of life and death. I've tried to raise the topic of killing children with our bombs before and it was met with contempt for daring to question the policy. If bombs are all bad simply because we can provide examples where they're killing innocent children, then: PAKISTAN Name | Age | Gender Noor Aziz | 8 | male Abdul Wasit | 17 | male Noor Syed | 8 | male Wajid Noor | 9 | male Syed Wali Shah | 7 | male Ayeesha | 3 | female Qari Alamzeb | 14| male Shoaib | 8 | male Hayatullah KhaMohammad | 16 | male Tariq Aziz | 16 | male Sanaullah Jan | 17 | male Maezol Khan | 8 | female Nasir Khan | male Naeem Khan | male Naeemullah | male Mohammad Tahir | 16 | male Azizul Wahab | 15 | male Fazal Wahab | 16 | male Ziauddin | 16 | male Mohammad Yunus | 16 | male Fazal Hakim | 19 | male Ilyas | 13 | male Sohail | 7 | male Asadullah | 9 | male khalilullah | 9 | male Noor Mohammad | 8 | male Khalid | 12 | male Saifullah | 9 | male Mashooq Jan | 15 | male Nawab | 17 | male Sultanat Khan | 16 | male Ziaur Rahman | 13 | male Noor Mohammad | 15 | male Mohammad Yaas Khan | 16 | male Qari Alamzeb | 14 | male Ziaur Rahman | 17 | male Abdullah | 18 | male Ikramullah Zada | 17 | male Inayatur Rehman | 16 | male Shahbuddin | 15 | male Yahya Khan | 16 |male Rahatullah |17 | male Mohammad Salim | 11 | male Shahjehan | 15 | male Gul Sher Khan | 15 | male Bakht Muneer | 14 | male Numair | 14 | male Mashooq Khan | 16 | male Ihsanullah | 16 | male Luqman | 12 | male Jannatullah | 13 | male Ismail | 12 | male Taseel Khan | 18 | male Zaheeruddin | 16 | male Qari Ishaq | 19 | male Jamshed Khan | 14 | male Alam Nabi | 11 | male Qari Abdul Karim | 19 | male Rahmatullah | 14 | male Abdus Samad | 17 | male Siraj | 16 | male Saeedullah | 17 | male Abdul Waris | 16 | male Darvesh | 13 | male Ameer Said | 15 | male Shaukat | 14 | male Inayatur Rahman | 17 | male Salman | 12 | male Fazal Wahab | 18 | male Baacha Rahman | 13 | male Wali-ur-Rahman | 17 | male Iftikhar | 17 | male Inayatullah | 15 | male Mashooq Khan | 16 | male Ihsanullah | 16 | male Luqman | 12 | male Jannatullah | 13 | male Ismail | 12 | male Abdul Waris | 16 | male Darvesh | 13 | male Ameer Said | 15 | male Shaukat | 14 | male Inayatur Rahman | 17 | male Adnan | 16 | male Najibullah | 13 | male Naeemullah | 17 | male Hizbullah | 10 | male Kitab Gul | 12 | male Wilayat Khan | 11 | male Zabihullah | 16 | male Shehzad Gul | 11 | male Shabir | 15 | male Qari Sharifullah | 17 | male Shafiullah | 16 | male Nimatullah | 14 | male Shakirullah | 16 | male Talha | 8 | male Source: http://droneswatch.o...stan-and-yemen/ That's not tragic, eh? If 21 American ground crew were blown up arming a drone that was about to murder another "suspect" and his family, then damn the Pakistani who questions the celebration over it, I guess. Edited February 20, 2014 by Yamato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted February 21, 2014 #33 Share Posted February 21, 2014 We're going to cheer for the Iran-backed forces of the Supreme Islamic Council and we're going to punish Iran at the same time? Put down the crack pipe and step away from the baby carriage. Sometimes the same assumptions that create these confused, corrupt, and counterproductive foreign policies we're going bankrupt over just so happen to come out in our rhetoric and emotions on a message board. This was one of those times. Sanction Iran but cheer the deaths of those fighting against it. If putting this kind of ignorant and ghoulish moral clarity on display was at least free, I wouldn't care. But some of us are still paying for this hypocritical nonsense, plus interest. If we can't even question what we're doing, we're going to keep on doing it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted February 21, 2014 Author #34 Share Posted February 21, 2014 [media=] [/media]If we can't even question what we're doing, we're going to keep on doing it. Take 15 minutes and think real hard about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted February 21, 2014 #35 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Take 15 minutes and think real hard about that. Okay, and why aren't the lives of Pakistani kids worth as much as Iraqi kids? Think real hard and answer me that. What is so Holier-Than-Thou about your Kill List? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted February 21, 2014 Author #36 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Okay, and why aren't the lives of Pakistani kids worth as much as Iraqi kids? Think real hard and answer me that. What is so Holier-Than-Thou about your Kill List? When did I say they aren't. And w.t.f. are you talking about a kill list? If you think I support the american war machine, you're wrong. I absolutely detest what they are doing. All I wanted for you to do was to entertain your own thoughts for a few minutes. I don't think you even took one second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likely Guy Posted February 22, 2014 #37 Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) Okay, and why aren't the lives of Pakistani kids worth as much as Iraqi kids? Think real hard and answer me that. What is so Holier-Than-Thou about your Kill List? Yamato, that was my 'kill list' because you asked, "What the hell is "innocent" people?" In Iraq, I gave you a short list of the innocent people. The topic at the time was and (unless the topic title has suddenly changed) is Iraq. Edited February 22, 2014 by Likely Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeem Posted February 28, 2014 #38 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Okay, and why aren't the lives of Pakistani kids worth as much as Iraqi kids? Think real hard and answer me that. What is so Holier-Than-Thou about your Kill List? Perhaps your answer can be this - those Pakistani kids were near Taliban and war should be win in any matter.Some will try to call it a propaganda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted February 28, 2014 #39 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Yamato, that was my 'kill list' because you asked, "What the hell is "innocent" people?" In Iraq, I gave you a short list of the innocent people. The topic at the time was and (unless the topic title has suddenly changed) is Iraq. Exactly. What the hell is so different about the topic Iraq? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted February 28, 2014 #40 Share Posted February 28, 2014 When did I say they aren't. And w.t.f. are you talking about a kill list? If you think I support the american war machine, you're wrong. I absolutely detest what they are doing. All I wanted for you to do was to entertain your own thoughts for a few minutes. I don't think you even took one second. LG provided a list of killed people; focusing on children to make some kind of point here; a kill list. If you could entertain my thoughts with me, you would differentiate that list, with my list. I've entertained my thoughts about the Middle East for a decade now. You absolutely detest what they're doing, why? Why are you so absolutely sure? Why are any of us so absolutely sure about any of this? That's my point. That's entertaining my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted February 28, 2014 #41 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Excuse me but I'm not so simple-minded and naive to actually believe that anybody who would bear arms against these abhorrent regimes of the Middle East are suddenly bad guys by default because some colleague of mine who's just as ignorant as I am says so. If it weren't for armed revolution and the terrorists like George Washington, I wouldn't even be here right now, so I should find the humility not to meddle in the internal affairs of other countries as if I know a damn thing about them. Laughing about mass death went a wee bit too far; so sorry about that if my words seemed to cut the skin a little, or whatever. The difference between me and a religious fundamentalist (or atheist for that matter) is that I know that I don't know stuff. The same dynamic is present with this issue, a lot of know nothings pretending otherwise, and that is exactly what serves our policies, and this collective delirium has been ongoing now for decades. It's been ongoing ever since oil was discovered in the Middle East. It's timeline could be drawn as Aramco to the Present. I do not get my moral code from Aramco. I think it's ghoulish and disgusting for those who do. What does it have to do with oil now Yamato? What indeed, for Chrissakes, people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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