danielost Posted February 21, 2014 #51 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I said stop whining and do something about it, not just stop whining. For instance last during last years gun debate, the people voted with their wallets the went out and bought guns and ammo. So much so that Walmart had to restrict number of boxes of ammo you could buy at one time. A new threat from Obama against the press is he wants to put a government official in every news station office. To make sure they giving both sides a fair shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent0range Posted February 21, 2014 #52 Share Posted February 21, 2014 1 don't buy a home where you have to listen to home owner association or start a petition to change the rules. 2 an employer cannot stop you from buying a gun. He/she can keep you from having one on the job. 3 it is illegal in many places to smoke inside a building. But, the employer has to provide a safe place outside for you to smoke. 4 you must have me mixed up with someone else like ninjadud or questionmark, I have never said not to stand up for your rights. I support people standing up for their rights. But it is your right to either stand up for them or sit on your butt and whine. The choice is yours not mine and I don't want it. I have a big enough headache looking after my own rights. An employer does not have to provide a safe place for you to smoke outside. If an employer wants, they can choose to go smoke free, which includes administering a nicotine test prior to hiring, and not hiring smokers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromdor Posted February 21, 2014 #53 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The roofing contractor I had in mind when I cited that example went tobacco and cursing free. If you used tobacco products or cursed on or off the job you were terminated. As a non smoker (or a roofer for that matter) it didn't bother me, but for smokers it was a big deal. They could choose not to work for that company, true. But if the whole industry decided to become tobacco (and cursing) free what choices would they have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielost Posted February 21, 2014 #54 Share Posted February 21, 2014 So this company followed you to keep from cursing and smoking. They must huge amounts of cash on hand to hire someone just to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielost Posted February 21, 2014 #55 Share Posted February 21, 2014 An employer does not have to provide a safe place for you to smoke outside. If an employer wants, they can choose to go smoke free, which includes administering a nicotine test prior to hiring, and not hiring smokers. Maybe not in your state. But, the three states I have lived in they do. CA, UT, TX. Of course it could just be a place on the sidewalk with a sign. The nursing home where I live provides one for the patients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Amerika Posted February 21, 2014 #56 Share Posted February 21, 2014 In theory anything's possible but I think the results of what's come out in these leaked documents is the opposite. That is, if you don't report on it, it might get troops killed. Manning, for all of his gay prison sex, has a big silver lining in all of this. He cleaned up the systems. To think of the volumes of all that expensive nonsense that was uncovered. Manning didn't take an oath not to get other troops killed. That's the kind of oath that would end promotions of commanders in the military. He took an oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. But everyone's fine with what we're doing. It's just a g'damned piece of paper. You dont seem to grasp the simple concept of job description. Manning was not and is not a Journalist. He did not work for the Press. He has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the Press is Free or not. You are taking two completely different topics and trying to make them one. If a Journalist uncovers a story, they report on it. If a person entrusted with Military secrets passes them on to an outside source he is a traitor. Right or wrong, he is a traitor and violated his duty to protect those secrets. Like it or not, no one is clean in this world, but that doesnt give him the right to violate his oath. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromdor Posted February 21, 2014 #57 Share Posted February 21, 2014 So this company followed you to keep from cursing and smoking. They must huge amounts of cash on hand to hire someone just to do that. Nah I don't work for them, like I said I am neither a smoker nor a roofer. I would assume that they would just do the nicotine patch test AgentOrange mentioned or just rely on their coworkers to rat them out. I originally didn't want to argue about the examples because they would just take focus away from my main point. Let me try and change the example to something you can relate to better. If a company said you had to have an abortion after the first child. It would be okay because you could choose not to work for that company according to your logic. Now the worry that people have is that all companies would adopt that policy and then everyone would be forced to have abortions after the first child. Where is the choice in that. And also you would have successfully stripped a freedom away from Americans without using the federal government. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Amerika Posted February 21, 2014 #58 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Huh?? I didn't decide the military should be under a different set of laws, the government did and for good reasons. The troops voluntarily agree to be under the rules of the UCMJ, it is not being forced on them. As far as the rest of this rant, I have no idea what you are on about. IOf putting me in the "small-brains" category means I don't have to interact with you then by all means, put me there. You will never get through to him. One has to have the honor and pride to actually serve their nation. That is why less than 2% of all Americans have ever served. He will never understand the concept of putting your own rights on hold while you serve to protect his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromdor Posted February 21, 2014 #59 Share Posted February 21, 2014 You dont seem to grasp the simple concept of job description. Manning was not and is not a Journalist. He did not work for the Press. He has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the Press is Free or not. You are taking two completely different topics and trying to make them one. If a Journalist uncovers a story, they report on it. If a person entrusted with Military secrets passes them on to an outside source he is a traitor. Right or wrong, he is a traitor and violated his duty to protect those secrets. Like it or not, no one is clean in this world, but that doesnt give him the right to violate his oath. This was the link I was originally trying to make before getting sidetracked by Danie. When you join the military, you give up the rights for free speech. A soldier saying the same thing that a journalist says could be executed for treason. It's okay because the soldier chose to be a soldier. But will the soldier (or anyone else who doesn't have free speech) care when the journalist loses his rights to free speech? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merc14 Posted February 21, 2014 #60 Share Posted February 21, 2014 You will never get through to him. One has to have the honor and pride to actually serve their nation. That is why less than 2% of all Americans have ever served. He will never understand the concept of putting your own rights on hold while you serve to protect his. Roger that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted February 21, 2014 #61 Share Posted February 21, 2014 You dont seem to grasp the simple concept of job description. Manning was not and is not a Journalist. He did not work for the Press. He has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the Press is Free or not. You are taking two completely different topics and trying to make them one. If a Journalist uncovers a story, they report on it. If a person entrusted with Military secrets passes them on to an outside source he is a traitor. Right or wrong, he is a traitor and violated his duty to protect those secrets. Like it or not, no one is clean in this world, but that doesnt give him the right to violate his oath. Well if he's a traitor that's obviously wrong, right? He betrayed information but did he defend the greater good? The commonality here is the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I don't reserve rights for journalists only. There are no journalist-specific rights. Right or wrong, he was sworn to defend the US Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. If all you care about is secret data that proves the government a liar when released, then this might be as black and white as you're painting it up to be. But which very important secrets amounting to treason are you even talking about? What tragedy has happened in the wake of releasing the content of these secrets that's such the big deal here? The benefit is that a spotlight was shown on a big ugly pile of secrets and now we know the truth. The consequence of knowing that the government is lying to us, the consequence of knowing the truth is a more vigilant society that's going to be more critical and skeptical of the foreign policies of the federal government. Government hides from anything that would cause people to reassess their policies. Just look at 9/11. Total media blackout on what motivated the terrorists to attack us on that day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Amerika Posted February 28, 2014 #62 Share Posted February 28, 2014 All governments lie. You choose whether or not you can accept those lies and move on to protect the nation. If you cant, you don't join the military. It takes all kinds of people to do the different kinds of jobs needed. You want to expose corruption and lies? be a journalist. You want to protect your nation and its secrets? join the military. The two jobs are like oil and water. they do not mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted February 28, 2014 #63 Share Posted February 28, 2014 All governments lie. You choose whether or not you can accept those lies and move on to protect the nation. If you cant, you don't join the military. It takes all kinds of people to do the different kinds of jobs needed. You want to expose corruption and lies? be a journalist. You want to protect your nation and its secrets? join the military. The two jobs are like oil and water. they do not mix. No, no no. It's not this military vs. civilian thing. You want to expose corruption and lies? Be a Whistleblower. Let's defend these 50 states from all enemies foreign and domestic. Not those states way over there; and their political enemies, or their religious enemies; or their ethnic enemies, or based on their national control over their own resources, or any of the other crapstain reasons we have all these ridiculous secrets you're very interested in keeping for some reason. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babe Ruth Posted February 28, 2014 #64 Share Posted February 28, 2014 All governments lie. You choose whether or not you can accept those lies and move on to protect the nation. If you cant, you don't join the military. It takes all kinds of people to do the different kinds of jobs needed. You want to expose corruption and lies? be a journalist. You want to protect your nation and its secrets? join the military. The two jobs are like oil and water. they do not mix. Do you see a difference between a nation and its government? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted February 28, 2014 #65 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Do you see a difference between a nation and its government? Yeah that's a great question. It's like saying that we have to be from the government in order to protect the nation. Wow that's quite a monopoly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian-legio XIII Posted February 28, 2014 #66 Share Posted February 28, 2014 So the land of the free is now 46th, so who's #1 on this freedom scale? (I can't even wager a decent guess) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromdor Posted February 28, 2014 #67 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Finland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted February 28, 2014 #68 Share Posted February 28, 2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Rankings_and_scores_by_country Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regeneratia Posted March 1, 2014 #69 Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) https://firstlook.or...g-manipulation/ https://prod01-cdn00...ception_p11.png https://prod01-cdn02.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-uploads/2014/02/Screenshot2.png Edited March 1, 2014 by regeneratia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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