Aus Der Box Skeptisch Posted February 19, 2014 #51 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) This reminds me of a joke... A man was on his roof while flood waters were raging and rising. The man kneeled on his roof praying for God to save him when a boat passed him and another man hollered "sir do you need help?" " No sir "said the man "God will save me" hearing this the man in the boat shook his head and moved on. The water was about half way up his house at this point when another boat came by and hollered at the man " sir the waters pretty dangerous would you like help?" The man on his roof yelled back with conviction " no sir God will save me" The water is now up to his roof and splashing up over his knees while he prays and prays for God to save him. This time a coast gaurd helicopter flies over this gentleman praying and calls down " this is the coast gaurd we are here to help. Wrap the rope around yourself and we will pull you to safety" the man waves them off yelling "thank you but God will save me" the coast gaurd yells back " I don't think you understand sir we have to hurry if you stay here you will die" again the man waves them off and keeps praying. The coast gaurd eventually leaves in hopes of finding more survivors and as the water rises the man drowns. Up in heaven the man stands before God and asks him "God why have you forsaken me?" God says "why would you think yourself forsaken?" The man said well I prayed and prayed for you to save me yet here I am dead!" God replies " ahh i see l but, I haven't forsaken you child you see, I did send two boats and a helicopter"..... That's the gist of the joke anyways. The Guy was offered medical help and refused sounds like God had a way to save him but the man couldn't see due to "blind" faith. Edited February 19, 2014 by Aus Der Box Skeptisch 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almagest Posted February 19, 2014 #52 Share Posted February 19, 2014 For bob marley.. His choice, his body, his life. You can give up the good he gave you because of his choices, that is your choice, your body, your life. Doesn't mean I can't say that it was a stupid choice. People are entitled to say the same thing about my choices if they wish, and I know they have and will in the future. Is that the way his children feel? Is your attitude really about them?... Or is it about you? It has to do with you lauding self-destructive behaviour. If he had been a heroin junky going on about how God would prevent him from overdosing then proceeded to do just that, would you have a nice thing to say about him? It must be since you have been gifted with the ability to tell valuable people from those without value. It was an opinion and I see no reason to preface everything I post with that fact. This isn't a guy who ran into a burning building to save a baby, or operated on a soldier with a mortar round embedded in them. What kind of a positive influence could he have? The fact that snake handling has continued and people keep dying from it suggests to me that he's continuing a destructive tradition. And he's perfectly entitled to do so, just like daredevils, but he doesn't get a drop of respect from me. Are you a fanatic? Are you privey to fundamental reality? Will you teach your children your beliefs? Do you honestly think that evolution agrees with your view? I can make an argument otherwise. No, my views change constantly. But one thing I am fairly certain on is that faith is not a virtue. Particularly when it leads people to die when they could have lived. Would you say the same thing about parents who tried to pray for their child's recovery from an illness instead of seeking medical attention? I sure hope you wouldn't. And I've made the decision not to reproduce, but it doesn't impact the way I feel about kids. It is an adults duty to safeguard children into adulthood and Pastor Coots has failed. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Crane Feather Posted February 19, 2014 #53 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Doesn't mean I can't say that it was a stupid choice. People are entitled to say the same thing about my choices if they wish, and I know they have and will in the future. It has to do with you lauding self-destructive behaviour. If he had been a heroin junky going on about how God would prevent him from overdosing then proceeded to do just that, would you have a nice thing to say about him? It was an opinion and I see no reason to preface everything I post with that fact. This isn't a guy who ran into a burning building to save a baby, or operated on a soldier with a mortar round embedded in them. What kind of a positive influence could he have? The fact that snake handling has continued and people keep dying from it suggests to me that he's continuing a destructive tradition. And he's perfectly entitled to do so, just like daredevils, but he doesn't get a drop of respect from me. No, my views change constantly. But one thing I am fairly certain on is that faith is not a virtue. Particularly when it leads people to die when they could have lived. Would you say the same thing about parents who tried to pray for their child's recovery from an illness instead of seeking medical attention? I sure hope you wouldn't. And I've made the decision not to reproduce, but it doesn't impact the way I feel about kids. It is an adults duty to safeguard children into adulthood and Pastor Coots has failed. Indeed. You are. It's just to bad you feel that way because he made about himself. People take risks all the time to get their fixes. Extreme sports, ice climbing, BASE jumping. Alex Honnold climbed half dome and el capitan with no ropes in a single day. But because a guy handles snakes to demonstrate his faith, you think he is not a valuable person? No I can't agree with parents pushing those things on children, they don't have a choice. I think I made that clear that's what I value. I am not arguing from a spiritual perspective im arguing from a libertarian one. Your attitude, my friend, is just as dangerous as the religious. Faith is like anything else it can virtuous but taken to extremes destructive. The problem here is that you are trying to impose your value system on another. Ethics are culturally relative. It then becomes up to the larger society to decide what subcultures are not permitted within the larger one. I don't know enough about coots to know if he forced his kids to handle snakes or encouraged his parishioners to do the same. Yes I think it's misguided, but as libertarian I'm dam glad to stick up for him. Im sure in his mind, if he even considered the possibility of death, he considered it in his gods hands. That's between him and his god. I respect that far more than those pretending to have faith to fleece their flock. It's an adults job to set the best example for their kids and do what they think is right. If Coots was as faithful as he appeared to be, then he was doing just this. In his mind, he was showing his loved ones the power of his savior and god. As Misguided and foolish that you or I think it is, it is irrelevant. His culture of Christianity thought it was right. Now a better argument is that it was illegal. He was putting his rules above the law of the land, which made him a criminal. As it turns out that subculture is not permitted within the greater culture. So be it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astra. Posted February 19, 2014 #54 Share Posted February 19, 2014 No sympathy for fools. I hope the snake was ok. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyDolly Posted February 19, 2014 #55 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I'm sorry he passed but still don't agree with his beliefs.The bible does mention that "They will take up serpents and they will be able to drink poison with no ill affect. " It's somewhere in the bible.HOWEVER this was not refering to the average joe in the Holyland. If it was refering to anyone it was the apostles who served Jesus . There was mentioned in the NT a story about some men trying to drive out a demon from a person. The devil told them that he knew Jesus and he knew St.Peter but he didn't know them and so he beat them. He would have better off helping the poor and elderly he would still be alive and could maybe make a difference in someone's life. Refusing to get medical care was dumb. I guess he forgot about St.Luke who wrote the Gospel of Luke.He was a greek doctor.You also have Sts.Cosmo and Damien,St.Louis Strattman ,and several saints who were doctors or nursing nuns.Jesus never said that you could not go to a doctor.Yes you can pray you don't encounter a rattlesnake in the woods which is fine,but deliberately handling them because you think you are God's anoited one is just silly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullywired Posted February 19, 2014 #56 Share Posted February 19, 2014 No sympathy for fools. I hope the snake was ok. We have a saying in England "as crazy as a coot" i think that just about sums the whole episode up fullywired 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostSouls7 Posted February 19, 2014 #57 Share Posted February 19, 2014 This is why it's dangerous to take The Bible.. or any old tales and stories of Vamypre literally ... there's also people who really bite people and drink blood... because they read the original Dracula ... same thing happens with the bible... they read something where it said snakes can;t hurt them.. then they start playing with snakes... it's sad this guy died... but it's just sad how a book full of stories... can control people's minds so much.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcion Meets E. Sibyl Posted February 19, 2014 #58 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I'm sorry he passed but still don't agree with his beliefs.The bible does mention that "They will take up serpents and they will be able to drink poison with no ill affect. " It's somewhere in the bible.HOWEVER this was not refering to the average joe in the Holyland. If it was refering to anyone it was the apostles who served Jesus . There was mentioned in the NT a story about some men trying to drive out a demon from a person. The devil told them that he knew Jesus and he knew St.Peter but he didn't know them and so he beat them. He would have better off helping the poor and elderly he would still be alive and could maybe make a difference in someone's life. Refusing to get medical care was dumb. I guess he forgot about St.Luke who wrote the Gospel of Luke.He was a greek doctor.You also have Sts.Cosmo and Damien,St.Louis Strattman ,and several saints who were doctors or nursing nuns.Jesus never said that you could not go to a doctor.Yes you can pray you don't encounter a rattlesnake in the woods which is fine,but deliberately handling them because you think you are God's anoited one is just silly. The pastor handled snakes for a long time. What did he do to lose his blessing, I wonder? It probably broke his heart when he realized that the grace left him, and perhaps (as another theory), it's the reason why he refused medical help. Losing that concrete/visual connection with God is something a person doesn't take lightly, especially a man of his stature.Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. K. Posted February 19, 2014 #59 Share Posted February 19, 2014 If he "had grace" and a "concrete/visual connection with God", he should have used it to minister to people and meet practical needs, rather than squander it on creating a spectacle which has no edificational value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcion Meets E. Sibyl Posted February 19, 2014 #60 Share Posted February 19, 2014 That was the way he saw his calling -- who are we to judge. It's interesting that we're talking about him... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevemagegod Posted February 19, 2014 #61 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I honestly thought that the Crocodile Hunter would of died from a Snake Bite or something. Not a frigging Manta Ray. In his show he was always handling some of the worlds deadliest Snakes and has even gotten bite by them to. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Crane Feather Posted February 20, 2014 #62 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I honestly thought that the Crocodile Hunter would of died from a Snake Bite or something. Not a frigging Manta Ray. In his show he was always handling some of the worlds deadliest Snakes and has even gotten bite by them to. That story is so sad. I love Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted February 21, 2014 #63 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The Bible is about believing, and offers nothing about medical science.Believers should pray when a Demon afflicts them, and not see a Doctor.Believers should let God Rature them when he sends a Hurricane instead of running for shelter.The power of belief, and prayer would make this a much better world, if all believers followed it to the letter. Acts 28:3-6 3 Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand. 4 When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to each other, “This man must be a murderer; for though he escaped from the sea, the goddess Justice has not allowed him to live.” 5 But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects. 6 The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead; but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god. Matthew 10:5-8 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. Matthew 17:14-20 14 When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15 “Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.” 17 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment. 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?” 20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiritualghosthaunting Posted February 21, 2014 #64 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’” Do you know what it means to be a Christian? Real Christians don't blindly believe. In those versesthat you gave us where was Jesus? Was He directly talking to them? The pastor who died received a gift from God. Have you watched any of his interviews? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Crane Feather Posted February 21, 2014 #65 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The Bible is about believing, and offers nothing about medical science. ........ Sigh....... Might that be because its a collection of writings from over 1000 years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted February 21, 2014 #66 Share Posted February 21, 2014 ........ Sigh....... Might that be because its a collection of writings from over 1000 years ago? Sigh....... Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendy Demon Posted February 21, 2014 #67 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The Bible is about believing, and offers nothing about medical science.Believers should pray when a Demon afflicts them, and not see a Doctor.Believers should let God Rature them when he sends a Hurricane instead of running for shelter.The power of belief, and prayer would make this a much better world, if all believers followed it to the letter. No..it wouldn't. Let me ask you this..if your child was being mauled by a vicious dog, you won't lift a finger to do anything? Just sit by helplessly while your child screams for you because you want "god" to magically save him/her? If your spouse was suffering an illness, you would really just sit by and do nothing? If your family was in danger of being crushed because a storm threatens to smash the house down, you'd force your family to just sit there while you sit helplessly and beg your deity to "save" you? Really? I have a hard time fathoming that anyone with a functioning brain would rather sit in a burning house and be burned to death instead of getting up off their duff and escaping. What, you'd make your kids and spouse sit there and burn to death along with you too? Hope not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted February 21, 2014 #68 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Real Christians don't blindly believe. HA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hideout Posted February 21, 2014 #69 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’” Do you know what it means to be a Christian? Real Christians don't blindly believe. In those versesthat you gave us where was Jesus? Was He directly talking to them? The pastor who died received a gift from God. Have you watched any of his interviews? No true scotsman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted February 21, 2014 #70 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’” Do you know what it means to be a Christian? Real Christians don't blindly believe. In those versesthat you gave us where was Jesus? Was He directly talking to them? The pastor who died received a gift from God. Have you watched any of his interviews? Do you know what is means to be a Christian? "Do not put the Lord your God to the test", means not to do something stupid and blindly trust that God will pull your bacon out of the fire. Christians are not to expect that if they go to the top of the Sears Tower and leap off, that God will provide a semi trailer full of pillows for them to land on every time. And certainly if a Christian did leap and did land on a pile of pillows, it is not Christian to test God by demanding the miricle be repeated, not just once, but every weekend. This pastor was doing the same thing. He was playing with snakes and got bit. Where does it say in the Bible that followers SHOULD handle snakes? Having the ability to defy the snake bite is one thing, but putting it to the test over and over is another. It seems to me that this pastor was "blindly believing", don't you agree? Edited February 21, 2014 by DieChecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiritualghosthaunting Posted February 21, 2014 #71 Share Posted February 21, 2014 No true scotsman Not the same. Being born from above is Christian. Do you know the Bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiritualghosthaunting Posted February 21, 2014 #72 Share Posted February 21, 2014 HA! Ha, what! It made your argument sound ignorant, but this is not the place to argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellig heilige Posted February 21, 2014 #73 Share Posted February 21, 2014 "Twisted logic" is another one my Amazon Queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiritualghosthaunting Posted February 21, 2014 #74 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Do you know what is means to be a Christian? It seems to me that this pastor was "blindly believing", don't you agree? I know for a fact I'm a "Christian". You wouldn't have asked that question if had watched the pastor's interviews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambelamba Posted February 21, 2014 #75 Share Posted February 21, 2014 "Twisted logic" is another one my Amazon Queen. Possibly from Compton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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