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Still Waters

Heaven and Back?: Man dead for 45 minutes

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Mr Walker

And instantly the Ministry song Psalm 69 gets stuck in my head. So I put that on and kinda tuned out to the rest of ya post. Sorry. It's all good though.

Hmm interesting. It sounds like you lost lucidity with the gunslinger though because you were worried about ammo and the gun in general.

I remembered an experience with falling asleep during a dream.

http://www.unexplain...4

It's the last one on the page. There's more detail of course in the link but below is the gist of it. I went 'out of body' using my dream body. I remembered it because I linked David Bowies Hours cd with it, well I'm pretty sure that was the dream I linked with that cd anyway.

Yea I responded emotionally at first to your post because I get that sort of criticism regularly. My bad.

I didn't lose lucidity. Rather in my dreams I often ensure contextual reality. Sure I could have had a gun with endless bullets but that would have spoiled the story line. The challenge was to shoot 6 cans then 6 coins out of the sky and yet have a bullet left from the original 6 each time in case I needed to shoot my opponent. The solution was to throw up 2 together and hit them both with one bullet, which I did (naturally because I controlled the dream) This wasn't cheating because it was technically possible if a person was a good enough shot, but just having endless bullets would have been cheating.

In early childhood I would fly on a flying carpet. After learning to do Immelman rolls, (from reading biggles books) I would fall out of the carpet as it looped the loop. I could fly by myself but it annoyed me that I would fall out.My first solution was to attach a seat belt . My later one, as an older kid, was to equip the carpet with a force field that held me on it. Finally, I designed it with an inertia less drive so that I and the carpet acted as one entity not two.

In my dreams I learned to walk through solid things but I used contextual reality to do so. I consciously blended m y molecules (By setting them at the same vibrational frequency as the rock etc) with those of the wall or rock, so I could pass through them. (This left me blind while doing so of course.) Only decades later did I read about how quantum mechanics says this is actually a physical possibility.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Bogeyman

I've always been of the opinion that "if something seems too good to be true well then it's not true". Granted that there are thousands of documented accounts of NDE's with striking similarities but i find that expecting a crossover with all my loved one's there to greet me is probably too good to be true. That doesn't seem to be the way Life works in my experience........so Death probably doesn't work that way either.

I will grant though that are some cases that just make you ask WTF is this about.

Take for instance this case here

http://www.nderf.org...m's_nde.htm

The thing about this one is that she has a team of doctors willing to endorse everything she says.

On the other side i know a guy who was legally dead for 15 min's......and he is adamant that there's nothing waiting for us. He remembers being in the Ambulance and blacking out....next ,waking up an hour later in hospital. In that hour the doctors told him he was dead for 15 minutes. He says there was nothing. to quote him "i was here, i was gone,i was here again, there was nothing in between". All the research seems to concentrate on the 10% of people that die and return recounting an NDE experience....what about the 90% who don't ?

Still on the fence with this one

Edited by Bogeyman
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AlienDan

Not all religions but many. And you do not need ANY religion to be in contact with god. It is innately a personal, one on one, relationship .

You distinguish a god delusion exactly the same way as you determine any reality from any delusion;by using evidences logic evolved mental reality checkers, etc. A real god is as real as a real dog and evinces the same evidences of its existence. God brings amny physical miracles into my life, from saving my life on many occasions to ensuring a car park is there when I need it. What good is a god who can't or won't do such things for a person? Believe me (or not) if you are in a real physical relationship with a god you will know it, just as you now you are in a real relationship with another person.

I cant answer your last question except like this. God works through me because I consent to him doing so . I recognise his presence, listen to his advice and I act on it . in return for living in this way ,he blesses me with riches and abundance which i can then give to people who badly need it. But if I did not live in accord with god I would not have those riches and abundance. I would be spending it on material and temporary things I do not really need. All it requires is for a person to open their heart and mind to god. They do not actually have to encounter him in the flesh .

Then every person will act in accord with god's wishes and WE human beings will end poverty, disease war, famine, etc. It is not hard really. If every western person gave less than 5% of their income, then poverty and famine would be ended, and so would most third world diseases. God will help and support us, but it is our job and our responsibility to solve and end the social ills we cause . Not gods.

I don't need god's command to kill evil people if I get the chance It is a part of my civic duty. :innocent: I mean its ridiculous to imagine god saying, "go forth and kill evil people" How do I even identify those who are evil. God tells me I am not capable of judging the hearts and minds of others because i cant get into them. He tells me to love myself and thus to love every other human being on the planet exactly as I love my self because all of us are connected via god. We are all a part of him and he lives within every one of us. not one of us is a lost, isolated, or lonely soul except by choice. We are all one and connected, both to each other, and to god. So we are never alone, never friendless, and never need to be lonely or afraid.

Ok so it's good you base your reasoning on evidence, but I'm looking for real scientificic testable evidence, not things open to personal biased interpretation like the examples you give. How do you know "miracles" are because of god? And not just a rare chance, or something else? How do you know your life was saved by god, or you got a parking spot because of god?

The way I would know if I was in a relationship with another person is that I could taste, touch, see, smell, and feel them. So can everyone else. Not only that, but we can scientifically test that there is another person through many different means. None of this can be done on god, so it's not really the same thing.

How do you know you're recognising his presense, and not just imagining it? How do you know it is god blessing you with things? What about people who don't believe in god, or people who are almost evidl, yet are extremely rich, happy, and have a great life? What about people who are deeply religius or living according to what they think gods wants, yet they are poor and miserable?

If every western person gave 5% of their income, that is a result of them giving their income, not god changing anything. How do you know god will help and support us? Look at at islamic countries, with how strong they are in their religius beliefs, yet are poor and underdeveloped.

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Mr Walker

Ok so it's good you base your reasoning on evidence, but I'm looking for real scientificic testable evidence, not things open to personal biased interpretation like the examples you give. How do you know "miracles" are because of god? And not just a rare chance, or something else? How do you know your life was saved by god, or you got a parking spot because of god?

The way I would know if I was in a relationship with another person is that I could taste, touch, see, smell, and feel them. So can everyone else. Not only that, but we can scientifically test that there is another person through many different means. None of this can be done on god, so it's not really the same thing.

How do you know you're recognising his presense, and not just imagining it? How do you know it is god blessing you with things? What about people who don't believe in god, or people who are almost evidl, yet are extremely rich, happy, and have a great life? What about people who are deeply religius or living according to what they think gods wants, yet they are poor and miserable?

If every western person gave 5% of their income, that is a result of them giving their income, not god changing anything. How do you know god will help and support us? Look at at islamic countries, with how strong they are in their religius beliefs, yet are poor and underdeveloped.

Only real hard testable evidence counts in my opinion. That is how I know god is real. I know god saved my life because of the contextual connections. How do I know a man saved my life if he pulled me from a strong surf or from a burning vehicle/ Well god saves my life in similar ways.He is there in physical form such as an angel or via energy form. He speaks with me giving advice and help and instruction but also provides physical protection. He gives me specific fore knowledge of events which will threaten my life allowing me wit his guidance to 'step around them" and alter the outcome form death to life. He acts like a gps navigation device in a car, giving directions in navigating life. In the same way he tells me where to find a parking spot. Eg turn left turn right and you will find one next to a blue van.

yes I can see, touch, taste, smell, feel and hear god, but more so others around me can also and he leaves physical traces of his passing. I don't need to scientifically test ( ie bring in scientists etc) the presence of my wife in bed to know she is there. Why should I need to scientifically test god's presence apart form using scientific methods myself to do so. I can speak for other peo but a person with go din their life will not be sad or miserable it is impossible I have lost everything I owned and never been happier because god directly saved my life and tha tof my wife All we have is a gift from god but how we feel about it is up to us. I could be a happy and free man in a prison cell because all I need is within me, and god gives me access to everything outside the cell via my mind.

iI pointed out only that god changed me, and via me saved the lives of hundreds of others and improved the quality of life of many more.

I then went on to say that if every westerner donated a small percentage of their income, disease and poverty would end. One doesn't need god to do this, but I don't see many people doing so.

We need a strong motivator to make even a small sacrifice and god can provide that motivation.

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JJ50

The man wasn't dead, no one who is truly dead comes back to life again, imo.

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AlienDan

Only real hard testable evidence counts in my opinion. That is how I know god is real. I know god saved my life because of the contextual connections. How do I know a man saved my life if he pulled me from a strong surf or from a burning vehicle/ Well god saves my life in similar ways.He is there in physical form such as an angel or via energy form. He speaks with me giving advice and help and instruction but also provides physical protection. He gives me specific fore knowledge of events which will threaten my life allowing me wit his guidance to 'step around them" and alter the outcome form death to life. He acts like a gps navigation device in a car, giving directions in navigating life. In the same way he tells me where to find a parking spot. Eg turn left turn right and you will find one next to a blue van.

yes I can see, touch, taste, smell, feel and hear god, but more so others around me can also and he leaves physical traces of his passing. I don't need to scientifically test ( ie bring in scientists etc) the presence of my wife in bed to know she is there. Why should I need to scientifically test god's presence apart form using scientific methods myself to do so. I can speak for other peo but a person with go din their life will not be sad or miserable it is impossible I have lost everything I owned and never been happier because god directly saved my life and tha tof my wife All we have is a gift from god but how we feel about it is up to us. I could be a happy and free man in a prison cell because all I need is within me, and god gives me access to everything outside the cell via my mind.

iI pointed out only that god changed me, and via me saved the lives of hundreds of others and improved the quality of life of many more.

I then went on to say that if every westerner donated a small percentage of their income, disease and poverty would end. One doesn't need god to do this, but I don't see many people doing so.

We need a strong motivator to make even a small sacrifice and god can provide that motivation.

That's great. So waht is this hard testable evidence? The way to know if a man saved our life from a burning vehicle is, we would have seen, heard, smel, touched, and tasted him for starters. Then we would also have DNA evidence on the vehicle or on our clothing, there would be footprints, other people would have seen them, the news station would be able to talk to him and everyone else would be able see it. The experiences with the man would be consistant and predictions could be made and fullfilled. That's hard testable evidence, right? What kind of evidence is there like this for god?

Are you saying angels and "energy" physically manifests to you? How so? How do you know they're real?

I still don't know how god speaks to you and protects you? How do you know what you're hearing or thinking isnt just your own mind or unconcious brain? If protection is being saved from a burning vehicle, how do you know it was god, and not just extreme luck or even something we don't understand in the physical laws of nature? How do you know this life saving knowledge is not just your own intuition, or something like a collective conciousness or sixth sense or something we dont understand? Why does it have to be god? How would we know for sure?

If we can experience god with all our senses, what's an example of this? What are these physical traces?

And how do you know your wife is there and how is it comparable to knowing if god is there? EVEN IF we experince something with all our senses, does that make it certainly real? A person can hallucinate something with all their senses, but it doesnt make it real.

Right, we dont need god to do that, so then why should be believe it anyway? Why can't empathy or the realization that helping eachother out makes a better world for everyone be a motivator? There are many non religius charities and people who don't believe in god who do good things anyways, for example billgates (atheist) has donated billions to charity, it's clear we don't need god as the motirvator to do good.

Edited by AlienDan

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Mr Walker

That's great. So waht is this hard testable evidence? The way to know if a man saved our life from a burning vehicle is, we would have seen, heard, smel, touched, and tasted him for starters. Then we would also have DNA evidence on the vehicle or on our clothing, there would be footprints, other people would have seen them, the news station would be able to talk to him and everyone else would be able see it. The experiences with the man would be consistant and predictions could be made and fullfilled. That's hard testable evidence, right? What kind of evidence is there like this for god?

Are you saying angels and "energy" physically manifests to you? How so? How do you know they're real?

I still don't know how god speaks to you and protects you? How do you know what you're hearing or thinking isnt just your own mind or unconcious brain? If protection is being saved from a burning vehicle, how do you know it was god, and not just extreme luck or even something we don't understand in the physical laws of nature? How do you know this life saving knowledge is not just your own intuition, or something like a collective conciousness or sixth sense or something we dont understand? Why does it have to be god? How would we know for sure?

If we can experience god with all our senses, what's an example of this? What are these physical traces?

And how do you know your wife is there and how is it comparable to knowing if god is there? EVEN IF we experince something with all our senses, does that make it certainly real? A person can hallucinate something with all their senses, but it doesnt make it real.

Right, we dont need god to do that, so then why should be believe it anyway? Why can't empathy or the realization that helping eachother out makes a better world for everyone be a motivator? There are many non religius charities and people who don't believe in god who do good things anyways, for example billgates (atheist) has donated billions to charity, it's clear we don't need god as the motirvator to do good.

Yup you would have and people did except this was in a hospital. He was so well dressed and so good looking that all the nurses wanted to know who he was. Only trouble was that he dematerialised or "beamed up" off an isolated fifth floor balcony after dropping me off a bible .

Gods predictions can be tested and validated by their precision and accuracy For example,e when he says " Don't drive to school down your usual street or you will be hit by a red truck speeding through the red lights." y ou can know this is correct if you observe this happen (from the sideline because you didn't take your usual route). yes "angels" and matter energy physically manifest and alter form They leave behind testable evidences of their presence. They are seen by others so they are not a creation of my mind. Do you really think I would be so persistent and adamant about this if I was speaking of things within my mind? Objective knowledge requires objective testing and validation .

It is god only in that it fulfils all the taxonomic parameters by which human s define god. "god' is really only a label like cat or dog.

So now you think maybe my wife isn't real.lol Very Descartian. My point was that BOTH my wife and god have to prove their objective existence to me in the same manner. All the points you raise are how we work this out.

Plus I KNOW from medical testing that both my organic brain and my mental health are in perfect shape. I do not hallucinate and the only time I have ever seen things which wee not there was under the influence of strong pain killers it was very obvious that these were hallucinations using basic reality checkers. Hallucinations and delusions really only are effective/convincing, where your mind is also affected and fails to be able to operate to see through them. You know there are comparatively few atheist or secular humanist charities because those philosophies do not provide belief driven motivation for WHy we should sacrifice our own lifestyle to help someone on the other side of the world. An atheist and especially a secular humanist can have other belief- driven values like environmentalism or animal welfare bu tt hese are not an integral part of either..

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ambelamba

He is really 41? I am nearing 40 and I look nowhere near old like him!

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joc

His heart never really stopped beating...oxygen was never really deprived from his brain...certainly not for forty five minutes. So, he wasn't dead after all. Nurses and doctors and their high technology gadgets are really not any better at discerning life from death than the days of the alchemist. But because the story said so...we should believe it...right? Just like the story says Lazerus was dead for 4 days...huh, uh...very passed out, that's all...close perhaps, but no cigar.

But the guy says he saw his mother in law...so...we should believe that life continues without the body...why then do we even have a body if it isn't necessary? The fact is that...it is necessary and that life only exists within the confines of the body (being defined as also the blood). Voodoo is any belief that involves fear. It's all voodoo.

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coolguy

How about the people that have a NDE and go to hell and come back that's freaky .

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