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Still Waters

Heaven and Back?: Man dead for 45 minutes

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Mr Walker

Of course there is a Light. But dead is dead...if one remains alive, then one is not dead. If one is dead, the life does not return...ever. Dead...is...Dead. Anything else...is not.

How do you know this to be universally true; past present and future.?
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Mr Walker

http://en.m.wikipedi...ethyltryptamine

I've read a lot about the topic of NDE's over the years, and believe that DMT is responsible for the "afterlife" one may find themselves in after what is perceived to be death.

I hope this doesn't get deleted by mods, and ask that the post stays here to add to the discussion of the topic.

For those who have taken any psychedelic substance at a high dose, it is plainly obvious that there is more to consciousness than what takes place inside of the body itself. I've personally had OBE's on high psychedelic doses, and for those others who have, I'll bet thousands can vouch for the same as well. I guess my point here is that you can seemingly exist in other realms outside of your body, without any awareness of its existence at the time, whether it's from meditation, an NDE, or a psychedlic compound. There is much more to this world than we currently understand.

Also meant to add that studies have recently taken place that suggest, in theory of course, that DMT is in your bloodstream at all hours of the day. Basically suggesting that your waking reality is nothing more than a "hallucination" in itself.

You don't need any drugs to do these things It is a natural ability of the body and mind. if you are altering your mind chemically you have to be suspicious of the reality you create. There is nothing mystical about it That concept of mystical or mysticism is a feeling we also generate in ourselves that, somehow, this state is representative of a greater reality. It actually is just us opening up to a reality which exists all round us, all the time You can do this by enabling your mind to do it. Drugs alter our minds perceptions of things but do not allow access to other physical realities . Humans have evolved to interact effectively and productively with their internal and external environments Chemically messing around with that capacity can not be a productive thing to do, no matter how much fun or how interesting it is.

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Mr Walker

In one study carried out in 1985, the experiences of 16 Asian Indians had been compared with those of Americans and it had been found that the Indians had often encountered Yamraj, the Hindu king of the dead, while the Americans had not.

The largest cross-cultural study had been carried out in 1977 by Osis and Haraldsson and had focused more on deathbed visions. These are the experiences that people have before death, usually in the 24 hours prior to death, and they are different from the classic NDE phenomenon. Deathbed visions are usually reported by carers who have looked after a person during the dying process. In this study the researchers had examined the visions of approximately 440 terminally ill American and Indian patients as described to their doctors and nurses. The most common feature, which occurred in 91 per cent of cases, was seeing deceased relatives. In 140 cases there were reports of seeing religious figures, usually described as an angel or God. Where these were specifically identified, they were always described according to the person’s religious beliefs: no Hindu reported seeing Jesus, and no Christian a Hindu deity.

http://www.horizonre...e.php?cat_id=66

Well how could you encounter a deity you have never met or know anything about? And what would be the point? If god appeared as shiva or an elephant god to a Christian, they either wouldn't know what it was, or would be sacred out of their wits.
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White Crane Feather

There is more evidence that it's neurological than spiritual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jQbYrbEsVE

This isn't proof of anything, if anything it supports the spiritual interpretation of the NDE.

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Mr Walker

How do you know these are real experiences when people experience different things and different religius deities? How do you know what you feel is "god" when people in all kinds of religions feel the exact same confiction as you?

Think about it. That rather makes the philosophical/theological case for a universal god connected to humans, which is not of a specific and fixed form, but whose appearance is kind of connected to an observer effect, where the observer shapes the form of god into an understandable/familiar or comfortable entity. Other wise, how and why, would humans all be able to interact with any sort of god form at all.

And sorry to many posters, but while chemical's, natural or other wise, may play a part in some such cases, they simply do not explain many of them. We know what has independent solid reality through the constant use of reality checkers which form a part of human cognitive process, thanks to evolution. Thus we can accurately ascertain something which has an independent physical existence and something which does not. if we choose not to, then that is a failure of effort and will, not of ability (unless one is unwell.)

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joc

I drowned a few years back and had to be resuscitated. I remember the actual drowning was scary, but then my body felt warm and nice. It doesn't hurt at all. Everything around me was black except for a blond man, which is my angel.

I am so sorry sweet girl, that you had to experience that. And....at the same time...I am so glad that you did...because you know things now that you could not have possibly known before...:)

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Kazahel

Wow Mr Walker was that 8, almost 9 posts in a row. Is that a record for you? So if everyone responds to your posts and you respond back, this thread quickly becomes what I call a Mr Walker thread. I don't mean that in a harsh way or to give offence but I often do wonder where the desire to post like that comes from. I guess whatever makes you happy. :)

Anyway I feel I've discussed my views on NDE's quiet a bit lately so I was more enjoying just reading. I think they would be an interesting thing to research though and I would especially be interested to see if someone could go OBE during an NDE and read something hidden from view. In the end its an experience anyway and I don't think it really matters what people believe. As long as they don't try turn them into facts and write crappy books trying to cash in on these experiences as if they know the truth about them. That's the thing I find annoying.

Edited by Kazahel

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highdesert50

While there is research that accounts for the how, the physiological aspects, of the NDE, the more intriguing aspect is to the why of the NDE. Of the nearly infinite number of hallucinations that could potentially occur at death, why does this type of highly reflective personal experience occur with such frequency?

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Hawken

Jerry Falwell, who is an evangelical pastor has made statements that NDE is the work of the devil.

I don't know where he gets that idea. If NDE has changed peoples lives for the better then one would

think it's the work of God. Even if science is right about NDE being brainwave activity, it's still given

people a whole new perspective on life.

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White Crane Feather

While there is research that accounts for the how, the physiological aspects, of the NDE, the more intriguing aspect is to the why of the NDE. Of the nearly infinite number of hallucinations that could potentially occur at death, why does this type of highly reflective personal experience occur with such frequency?

That's just it there is not research that accounts for the how either. The best thing we have now is a new study in rats that suggests some sort of electrical surge ( In rats) after cardiac arrest, but this fits nicely with a spiritual interpretation as well. Scientists ( not pseudo skeptics ) don't have a clue why people can have a complex cognitive event at times where lak of blood pressure has shut done the parts of the brain required to have these experiences.

People are still clamoring about chemistry, when it has been shown not to be the case. I can't tell you how many times DMT pops up in this subject, when it was simply a suggestion that got blown out of proportion, and has absolutely no factual basis.

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krunk666

Wow! This story is just like mine, except the people that came to me from the light, I had never met in person. They were deceased family members before I was old enough to remember anything. They told me the same thing, "it's not your time son. You will go back..."

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krunk666

http://en.m.wikipedi...ethyltryptamine

I've read a lot about the topic of NDE's over the years, and believe that DMT is responsible for the "afterlife" one may find themselves in after what is perceived to be death.

I hope this doesn't get deleted by mods, and ask that the post stays here to add to the discussion of the topic.

For those who have taken any psychedelic substance at a high dose, it is plainly obvious that there is more to consciousness than what takes place inside of the body itself. I've personally had OBE's on high psychedelic doses, and for those others who have, I'll bet thousands can vouch for the same as well. I guess my point here is that you can seemingly exist in other realms outside of your body, without any awareness of its existence at the time, whether it's from meditation, an NDE, or a psychedlic compound. There is much more to this world than we currently understand.

Also meant to add that studies have recently taken place that suggest, in theory of course, that DMT is in your bloodstream at all hours of the day. Basically suggesting that your waking reality is nothing more than a "hallucination" in itself.

Except when your high, you're still alive and are able to remember everything. But when you die, your dead, your brain stops working, and you are not suppose to remember anything, your not suppose to be able to feel anything, or be aware of what's around you, who's talking next to you, and I can keep going...The fact of just being able to remember anything is incredible, because the brain is dead, the body is dead remember that. :alien:

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Awake2Chaos

Interesting, that's a long time to be 'down'. (For the lay folks, A-fib doesn't constitute a genuine rhythm, like the RN described in the video; it can preceed asystole, or no heart rhythm at all. And we only perform CPR on folks that have no pulse/cardiac activity.)

Usually people that are 'down' that long don't come back. He's so lucky to be alive. Just surviving a Widow Maker is a miracle in and of itself. The survival rates for that type of heart attack are pretty dismal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widow_maker

Anyway, I've never had a NDE, so I can't say what happens either way, but I definitely think people experience something.....whether it is a chemical reaction in the brain vs. a genuine spiritual experience is not for me to say.

I will say that I find it interesting that across time, culture, age, sex, religious beliefs, etc, the stories are pretty consistent.

Here's a study I tripped across on my adventures through the interwebs...

http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm

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Davros of Skaro

So I’m Schizophrenic, I see, my step daughter was Schizophrenic for many sad and traumatic years before her death I can assure through my own experience of living with ‘Layla’ that I do not suffer from this terrible illness. Also I partied through the late 60s and early 70s psychedelic days and I can tell you Amphetamines had nothing to do with my meditation experiences then or now. But then again how scientific is any research that sums up by saying ‘many believe?’ If you are going to offer up a materialistic science view point, you should at least be scientific about it. i.e.You posted “Therefore, many researchers believe that”. Only ‘many’ of them, not all of them? and “believe” and not ‘know’ how scientific is that?

Davros I am not trying to covert you, I don’t care what you believe, if you are happy with your research and some of those researchers beliefs that’s fine by me. Here is a vid and in this case the experience of another doctor, have a look.

Take care

You made it obvious that you do not understand the scientific process.Science is not seeing some Swami on a mountaintop, and saying "yes it must be true".

That video was a fail on your part, and I do not think you got the metaphor she was using for the left/right brain hemisphere's.

I am not trying to convert you, but the next generation that comes across this thread needs to be more reasoned, and logical than the past for Mankind to survive.

Take care, and enjoy your delusion which a Dopamine, or a DMT injection can simulate exactly.

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Davros of Skaro

This isn't proof of anything, if anything it supports the spiritual interpretation of the NDE.

Oh yeah?

Is that what your vision quest spirits that you talk to say?

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Davros of Skaro

What is the difference?

Why don't you consult the powers you use to win millions on the Pokie/Slot Machines for answers.

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Yamato

many religion haters say that man created religion. I believe that these experiences created the belief in the afterlife and vis a vis, religion. which can only be expected. it is the only thing that really makes sense. religion is too abstract an idea for it crop up all by itself as a means on control, there are plenty of other ways to "control"a population that is far easier.....like violence and power.

I think you're right. Atheists commonly make the exact same mistake as a religious fundamentalist only on the opposite end of the spectrum. One knows exactly what God is, the other knows exactly what God isn't.

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sutemi

You made it obvious that you do not understand the scientific process.Science is not seeing some Swami on a mountaintop, and saying "yes it must be true".

That video was a fail on your part, and I do not think you got the metaphor she was using for the left/right brain hemisphere's.

I am not trying to convert you, but the next generation that comes across this thread needs to be more reasoned, and logical than the past for Mankind to survive.

Take care, and enjoy your delusion which a Dopamine, or a DMT injection can simulate exactly.

Is that your scientific answer? Isn’t there some proper science you could post from Wikipedia? It seems there isn’t so you turn to insults instead. Swami and mountain top? Lol, you have no idea! yet like all pseudo scientists you talk about things you have no idea about, how would you know the what, where or how about what I experienced? Very scientific. About as scientific as “Therefore, many researchers believe that” I mean really is this science?

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Leonardo

That's just it there is not research that accounts for the how either. The best thing we have now is a new study in rats that suggests some sort of electrical surge ( In rats) after cardiac arrest, but this fits nicely with a spiritual interpretation as well.

It fits better to a scenario of the body having an extreme traumatic reaction - possibly in a last-ditch attempt to continue to function - with no 'spiritual' association. This also applies to what we observe happening in the brain in the close-to-death scenario.

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Davros of Skaro

Is that your scientific answer? Isn’t there some proper science you could post from Wikipedia? It seems there isn’t so you turn to insults instead. Swami and mountain top? Lol, you have no idea! yet like all pseudo scientists you talk about things you have no idea about, how would you know the what, where or how about what I experienced? Very scientific. About as scientific as “Therefore, many researchers believe that” I mean really is this science?

Science can stimulate parts of the Brain, and people will report sights, sounds, and smells that are not there.

Where's your evidence?

Wanting to believe is not evidence.

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sutemi

You made it obvious that you do not understand the scientific process.Science is not seeing some Swami on a mountaintop, and saying "yes it must be true".

That video was a fail on your part, and I do not think you got the metaphor she was using for the left/right brain hemisphere's.

I am not trying to convert you, but the next generation that comes across this thread needs to be more reasoned, and logical than the past for Mankind to survive.

Take care, and enjoy your delusion which a Dopamine, or a DMT injection can simulate exactly.

No it is you who does not understand scientific process, it requires checking ALL the evidence not just the bits you like. I love science always have and I understand her talk and her metaphors through my practice of meditation and all the science I have acquired, so seeing you are having difficulty with video presentations I have written down many of her points that you seem to have been deaf to when you watched it, the times are approximations. I have also underlined them for you. When the next generation comes across this thread they will see that you are not reasoned, do not check all the evidence and completely avoid anything that does not fit with your pre conceived concepts. And because of this it is obvious that just like many people you will not be reasoned from your theories.

4.29 ‘I am an energy being …We are energy beings’

8.10 ‘Then I looked down at my arm and realized that I can no longer define the boundaries of my body because the atoms and molecules of my arm blended with the atoms and molecules of the wall

8:33 and all I could detect was this Energy.

9.03 Then I was immediately captivated by the magnificence of the energy around me and because I could no longer define the boundaries of my body I felt enormous and expansive I felt at ONE with all the energy that was and it was beautiful there.

9.43 imagine what it would be like to disconnected from your brain chatter that connects YOU to the outside world

13.50 I felt my energy lift and my spirit surrender

1401 either the doctors rescued my body and gave me a second chance at life or perhaps this was my moment of ‘transition’

14.20 My mind was suspended between two very opposite planes of reality

14.56 Like a genie just liberated from her bottle and my spirit soared free like a great whale gliding through a sea of silent euphoria… Nirvana.. I found Nirvana and I remember thinking there was no way I could ever squeeze the enormousness of myself back into this tiny little body …..then I realised I am still alive and I have found Nirvana…… then everyone who is alive can find Nirvana

16.46 So Who are we? We are the Life force power of the Universe with manual dexterity and two cognitive minds

17.11 I am the life force power of the universe ….. at One with all that IS!

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White Crane Feather

Oh yeah?

Is that what your vision quest spirits that you talk to say?

Nope hard logic and science my friend. Since you insist on using jr. Highish logic, you should prepare yourself before you attempt to debate this with me. This might help you actually learn how to debate an issue rather than preach to me.

Maybe it will teach you to stop using useless ad hominims, straw men, and assuming the conclusion fallacies. Other wise you are just going to look like a child getting spanked :D Which I have feeling is not far from the truth.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0471799416

Edited by White Crane Feather
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White Crane Feather

It fits better to a scenario of the body having an extreme traumatic reaction - possibly in a last-ditch attempt to continue to function - with no 'spiritual' association. This also applies to what we observe happening in the brain in the close-to-death scenario.

It only fits better, when you are assuming your own conclusion.

No it dosnt. When blood pressure is basically non existent the parts of the brain required for cognitive function are shut down. Being conscious of something, recognizing speech, putting a story to some sort of stimulus are all a complicated global process of a functioning brain. It's been proven time and time again unfortunately usually putting dogs to death that the parts of the brain that perform these functions are shut down seconds after cardiac arrest. Yes you can put a dog to death while it brain is being monitored. Grewsome, I know, but they were going to be put down anyway.

This is why scientists take an interest in NDEs because, our knowledge ( which is extensive) of physiology tells us it should not be happening from a physiological perspective. Only pseudo skeptics come up with all the unsubstantiated rhetoric without looking at the facts.

When you do not assume your own conclusions then you must allow for other possibilities other than the one you hold bias for. This is how real science is conducted. if there is a non physical reality interfacing at the margins of death, there is likely to be an energy signature. It could be a smoking gun. Especially if we cannot identify the source or reason for the energy surge. But of course it's only in rats at the moment, assuming the effect can be reproduced and withstands peer review.

Edited by White Crane Feather
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White Crane Feather

Science can stimulate parts of the Brain, and people will report sights, sounds, and smells that are not there.

Where's your evidence?

Wanting to believe is not evidence.

The smell of flowers can probably be simulated in the brain as well that doesn't mean that there are no such things as flowers. Quite the opposite actually. It's pretty good evidence that flowers exist if their smell is a matter of record.

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spartan max2

Science can stimulate parts of the Brain, and people will report sights, sounds, and smells that are not there.

Where's your evidence?

Wanting to believe is not evidence.

Lol soooo?

our brain also stimulates sounds and smells when things are "there"

Edited by spartan max2
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