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Iran Hasn't attacked anyone in 200 years

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Br Cornelius

In a Fascist state there would be no "creationist lobby." Either the state would impose creationism or it would ban it. The idea of lobbys trying to influence things is alien to the concept.

I don't think you understand fascism at all. certainly fascism in its current form is not as overt as it once was though.

However let me just direct you to look at the fascistic nature of the revolutionaries in the Ukraine - and then see who paid for their rise to power. you guessed it America.

Lobbyists are the very core of how a fascist state works since they are the conduit between business interests and government interests. Lobbyists are the go betweens who take the the needs of business and formulate legislation to make those interests be favoured. Just look at the revolving door between the FDA and the agribusiness and pharmaceuticals industries. Look at the fracking legislation enacted in the USA - drafted by a representative of Halliberton the very company who developed the technology. Look at the cosy relationship between Monsanto and the USG, with direct evidence of the USG threatening to use economic warfare against France for refusing to allow Monsanto products into their country.

If creationism is not promoted by the Government, its only because to do so would be counter productive to the interests of the state. Fascists tend to be rather practical when it comes to selecting their causes.

Br Cornelius

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jeem

Show me the mass graves, the ovens, and the bodies like cordwood floating down the Jordan. No? I wouldn't talk about logic if I were you.

Well as I have said before it's a slow motion genocide so people like you barely notice it.

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RavenHawk

I have to disagree RavenHawk. Marxism is a very distinct philosophy within the panoply of communism. Describing a Marxist as a communist is a reasonable (though slightly inaccurate) statement. Describing a communist as a Marxist, however, is to ascribe specific beliefs to them that they may NOT hold. To use a trivial example: All members of the American Republican Party are Americans. However, not all Americans are members of the Republican Party. So it would be wrong to label all Americans as Republicans, just as it would be wrong to describe all Communists as Marxists.

That’s fine but let me point out that you didn’t understand what I said. You say you disagree and then go into a conclusion that isn’t anywhere close to what I stated. I’m not making a distinction between Republicans and Americans. In this case, I’m saying that ultimately all Republicans, Democrats, and Independents are Americans. What if I used Nazi, or Fascist, or even Democracy, instead of Marxist? It wouldn’t have changed anything I said. The academic definitions of these forms of government don’t change what I’m talking about. Some here are so entrenched in their ivory towers and their pat definitions that they can’t think outside of the box and when someone comes along that does, it destroys their world order. It makes them very uneasy. That’s actually good.

Many ascribe to the political spectrum as Marxist, Communists, etc. being on the Left and Fascism, Nazism, etc. being on the Right. This just creates too much confusion because it is based on the academic definition of these forms of government and not what is really important, which is the amount of control the government has over the individual. The spectrum that I follow is that you have 0% control at one end and 100% at the other. Anarchy would go from 0 to 10, a Constitutional Republic would be 10 to 30, and all others are 30 to 100. Granted we could argue the numbers but they are unimportant for this discussion. All governments in time drift to the 100% end of the spectrum. A Democracy probably moves faster to the 100% end than any other because of the simple proposition that a person is smart, but people are dumb and Democracy is mob rule and people don’t always do what is in their own best interests (a person will but not people). Short term gratification is not wise. Only a government with set boundaries (anchor points) does not move and benefits the people (not the ruling elite). There is really only one like that in the world today but those boundaries are under siege by the current leadership.

My world view is based on this simple concept and it makes understanding the function of government less confusing. But those that disagree want to keep the level of confusion so that tyranny continues to have a foothold in the Human Condition. But on the other hand, without them, then light and freedom would only be meaningless words. Does this help? You’ve noticed that those that can’t think outside of the box can only attack me but they can never attack my beliefs. When asked specific questions, they dodge the answer.

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DeWitz

If we can't even agree, within the confines of vernacular English, on the definitions of very large movements in historical-political economies, how do we expect to reach any common ground?

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RavenHawk

Well as I have said before it's a slow motion genocide so people like you barely notice it.

Coughcoughbull$hitcough There is no such thing as slow motion genocide. Genocide has to work quickly like the Jews in Nazi Germany, Tutsi in Rwanda, or Muslims in Bosnia. You also need mass graves and ovens, etc. Where are they? I haven’t heard of a Soylent Green factory in operation.

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and then

Coughcoughbull$hitcough There is no such thing as slow motion genocide. Genocide has to work quickly like the Jews in Nazi Germany, Tutsi in Rwanda, or Muslims in Bosnia. You also need mass graves and ovens, etc. Where are they? I haven't heard of a Soylent Green factory in operation.

Now that the last batch of murderers terrorists freedom fighters are NOT going to be released by Israel, the next Intifada may be about to begin and Iran will no doubt be instrumental in helping others to do the attacking.

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Frank Merton

The word "Fascist" should be used carefully and anyone who uses it to describe the general Ukrainian mass is just passing on Russian disinformation and loses my respect.

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Yamato

Coughcoughbull$hitcough There is no such thing as slow motion genocide. Genocide has to work quickly like the Jews in Nazi Germany, Tutsi in Rwanda, or Muslims in Bosnia. You also need mass graves and ovens, etc. Where are they? I haven't heard of a Soylent Green factory in operation.

Get a dictionary and look up the word Genocide. Get a map and look at the Palestinian territories.

Israeli officials just said that even the 1967 borders are indefensible. So what the **** does that leave now? A bunch of broken pieces of land cut off by Israel-only roads and economic warfare? That's probably the worst example of tyranny on the planet. This is genocide by definition. You Zionists can't even use the words Palestine or Palestinian without putting them in quotes.

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Br Cornelius

The word "Fascist" should be used carefully and anyone who uses it to describe the general Ukrainian mass is just passing on Russian disinformation and loses my respect.

Frank - a significant part of the more organized and well financed (from the US) elements of the Ukrainian uprising are Fascists. Its that simple, and most of them have found seats at the top table with the backing of the US and EU. The leaders were in negotiations with the USG state department for well over a year. There is a report made by the BBC which was never aired - but which interviewed the Fascists on the street.

These were the people who projected the protest into a takeover and its not difficult to verify their existence and roll. It is you who have been victim of the wests propaganda efforts to portray the revolutionaries as benign ordinary people.

Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

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jeem

Coughcoughbull$hitcough There is no such thing as slow motion genocide. Genocide has to work quickly like the Jews in Nazi Germany, Tutsi in Rwanda, or Muslims in Bosnia. You also need mass graves and ovens, etc. Where are they? I haven't heard of a Soylent Green factory in operation.

Well Yam has done my job but lets add a little more

Ilan Pappe an Israeli historian said that-

"A genocide is taking place in Gaza....An average of eight Palestinians die daily in the Israeli attacks on the Strip. Most of them are children. Hundreds are maimed, wounded and paralyzed. (It's become) a daily business, now reported (only) in the internal pages of the local press, quite often in microscopic fonts. The chief culprits are the Israeli pilots who have a field day,"

Israel has ethnically cleansed 750,000 Palestinians off their homeland in 1947. And ethnically cleansed another 300,000 Palestinians off their homelands in 1967

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Space Commander Travis

Frank - a significant part of the more organized and well financed (from the US) elements of the Ukrainian uprising are Fascists. Its that simple, and most of them have found seats at the top table with the backing of the US and EU. The leaders were in negotiations with the USG state department for well over a year. There is a report made by the BBC which was never aired - but which interviewed the Fascists on the street.

These were the people who projected the protest into a takeover and its not difficult to verify their existence and roll. It is you who have been victim of the wests propaganda efforts to portray the revolutionaries as benign ordinary people.

Br Cornelius

I think some people just don't want to know. I'm still waiting for an explanation of why overthrowing an elected leader is being cheered by countries that insist it's their job to promote "Democracy" all around the world. It seems like the "Democracy" they mean is mob rule rather than bothering about all that tedious process of elections and things. Which may also be why they dismiss the vote in Crimea with an airy wave of their hand.

--> This story just yesterday,in fact ..

Ukraine’s Inconvenient Neo-Nazis

Edited by Colonel Rhubarb

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RavenHawk

Well Yam has done my job but lets add a little more

You set low standards don’t you. All Yam has done is show how much a moron he is. If you hadn’t notice, his last tirade is disjointed and nonsensical rambling.

Ilan Pappe an Israeli historian said that-

Taking advice from Pappe on Israeli politics and history is like taking advice from Noam Chomsky on American politics and history. It has such a leftist spin on it that if you believe it then I’ve got some real good bottom land to sell you and maybe a bridge or two.

"A genocide is taking place in Gaza....An average of eight Palestinians die daily in the Israeli attacks on the Strip. Most of them are children. Hundreds are maimed, wounded and paralyzed. (It's become) a daily business, now reported (only) in the internal pages of the local press, quite often in microscopic fonts. The chief culprits are the Israeli pilots who have a field day,"

If you pick a fight, you shouldn’t hide behind your children. This is still not genocide. Where are the mass graves indicative of genocide? This is the third time I’ve asked the question and will probably be the third time you are unwilling to answer. The plight of the so called culture “““““Palestinian””””” is not Israel’s fault.

Israel has ethnically cleansed 750,000 Palestinians off their homeland in 1947. And ethnically cleansed another 300,000 Palestinians off their homelands in 1967

Well, which is it? There’s a big difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide. Genocide is the extreme form of ethnic cleansing. EC in general, is merely the moving of an unwanted population. That has occurred throughout history all the time. Rome did it to the Jew (Diaspora), Russia did it to the Jew in Ukraine, Jordan did it to the Palestinian in 1970. America did it to the Native American. And probably the best example is la Reconquista.

If you want to talk about it as genocide then let’s talk about the genocide on the Jews at the hands of the Palestinian prior to 1947. The Palestinian had a chance to become a state and they refused. Their Mufti told them to run away and abandon their lands. For sure, those that didn’t own the land left and that was probably the majority of the 750,000. In 67, they became a real enemy of Israel. With conquered land, Israel had every right to move the population. That’s EC and not genocide, BTW.

Where were their Muslim brothers to support statehood? Where are their Muslim brothers to build hospitals and schools in Gaza and WB? Where are their Muslim brothers to take in the Palestinian? Those that went to Lebanon have not received Lebanese citizenship even after 60 years. Why not? Those that went to Jordan suffered Black September. Why? The fact is is that even in the Arab world, the Palestinian is unwanted. Lebanon and Jordan are practicing their own versions of EC. The Arab world sees the Palestinian as only cannon fodder. The Palestinian were never really a culture as they were a conglomeration of separate semi nomadic tribes squatting on land that they didn’t own in the first place.

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Br Cornelius

I am usually a firm supporter of what the EU has achieved and what its long term aims are. i generally think it has been a force for good. However this little documentary on how many of the architects of Nazi Fascism went on to play major roles in the foundation of the European Union;

[media=]

[/media]

However I believe that it is a to simplistic notion to say that the EU is Fascist in nature since I think what was and is really happening is that these institutions (Nazi Germany and the EU) were convenient vehicles for a much more covert bunch of people who go by the name synarchy.

https://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles/synarchy-the-hidden-hand-behind-the-european-union

Synarchists will use any political or institutional vehicle to achieve their ultimate objective and it is not uncommon for them to be embedded on both sides of a political divide.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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RavenHawk

I think some people just don't want to know. I'm still waiting for an explanation of why overthrowing an elected leader is being cheered by countries that insist it's their job to promote "Democracy" all around the world. It seems like the "Democracy" they mean is mob rule rather than bothering about all that tedious process of elections and things. Which may also be why they dismiss the vote in Crimea with an airy wave of their hand.

Necessity makes for strange bedfellows. The enemy of my enemy is my friend type thing. We don’t hear much of Putin’s attempt on Yushchenko’s life do we? Putin has been trying to destabilize the Ukrainian economy ever since. Between that and the sense of euphoria over the Olympics, Putin has become a leader of vision. Who wouldn’t want to join Russia now? Putin is symbolic of the type of leader we need and don’t have. I don’t think Putin is following down the Communist path but he is still a dictator. Obama is being upstaged so look out.

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Br Cornelius

[media=]

[/media]

There was a problem with my previous post where this video wouldn't embed, so here it is.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Yamato

So it's not ironic then that it's the German taxpayers who are disproportionately propping up the centralized insolvent mess. Turkey and Ukraine want their bailouts too, come on Europe, get with it!

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jeem

You set low standards don't you. All Yam has done is show how much a moron he is. If you hadn't notice, his last tirade is disjointed and nonsensical rambling.

Because you don't agree with him it becomes low standard .

Taking advice from Pappe on Israeli politics and history is like taking advice from Noam Chomsky on American politics and history. It has such a leftist spin on it that if you believe it then I've got some real good bottom land to sell you and maybe a bridge or two.

Is that only you who said that or other people does that too?

If you pick a fight, you shouldn't hide behind your children.

Actually they(Palestinian) did not pick up a fight.The fight was forced upon them when they were playing with their children.

This is still not genocide. Where are the mass graves indicative of genocide? This is the third time I've asked the question and will probably be the third time you are unwilling to answer. The plight of the so called culture """""Palestinian""""" is not Israel's fault.

Well, which is it? There's a big difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide. Genocide is the extreme form of ethnic cleansing. EC in general, is merely the moving of an unwanted population. That has occurred throughout history all the time. Rome did it to the Jew (Diaspora), Russia did it to the Jew in Ukraine, Jordan did it to the Palestinian in 1970. America did it to the Native American. And probably the best example is la Reconquista.

In the article 2 of UN genocide convention they said

“Intent to destroy in whole or in part" - sustained (and frequently asserted) intent over about 150 years of the Zionist colonial project; 0.75 million Palestinian refugees in 1948; currently 7 million Palestinian refugees, and 4.2 million Palestinian refugees registered with the UN in the Middle East; over 40 years of illegal Israeli Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza; 0.1 million 1948-2011 violent Palestinian deaths, post-1967 excess deaths 0.3 million; post-1967 under-5 infant deaths 0.2 million; 3,600 under-5 year old Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) infants die avoidably EACH YEAR in the OPT "Prison" due to Apartheid Israeli war crimes

a) Killing - about 5100,000 Palestinians killed since 1948; post-1967 excess deaths 0.3 million; post-1967 under-5 infant deaths 0.2 million; 3,600 under-5 year old Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) infants die avoidably EACH YEAR in the OPT "Prison" due to Israeli ignoring of the Geneva Convention; 254 OPT Palestinians killed by the Israeli military in the LAST 2 MONTHS OF 2008 ALONE, 301 killed thus last year (latest UNRWA data; see above).

B) Causing serious bodily or mental harm - see (a) and the shocking UNICEF reports of the appalling conditions psychologically scarring OPT children: http://www.unicef.or...ountry/oPt.html .

© Conditions to cause destruction in whole or in part - see (a) and ( B); Professor Noam Chomsky describes the OPT as a highly abusive "Prison"; others use the valid term "Concentration Camp" and make parallels with the Warsaw Ghetto; one has to turn to US-guarded Vietnamese hamlets and the Nazi era atrocities to see routine, horrendously violent and deadly military policing of civilian concentration camps.

(d) Measures intended to prevent births - see (a), ( and © above; dozens of pregnant women dying at road blocks; other killing of pregnant Palestinian women; huge infant mortality in the OPT with the Occupier in gross violation of the Geneva Convention.

(e) Forcible transferring of children – irreversible transferring by killing of children - 0.2 million post-invasion infant deaths; 27 OPT children violently killed in the LAST WEEK ALONE; mass imprisonment of 2 million OPT children; hundreds of Palestinian children in abusive Israeli high-security prisons in Israel; forcible separation of families by racist Israeli Apartheid Laws, marriage laws and immigration laws

source:https://sites.google.com/site/palestiniangenocide/

Where were their Muslim brothers to support statehood? Where are their Muslim brothers to build hospitals and schools in Gaza and WB? Where are their Muslim brothers to take in the Palestinian? Those that went to Lebanon have not received Lebanese citizenship even after 60 years. Why not? Those that went to Jordan suffered Black September. Why? The fact is is that even in the Arab world, the Palestinian is unwanted. Lebanon and Jordan are practicing their own versions of EC. The Arab world sees the Palestinian as only cannon fodder.

So you go to build hospital in Gaza and those IDF shoots you just like the turkey ship.IDF will say they were terrorist

Edited by jeem
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RavenHawk

Because you don't agree with him it becomes low standard .

That’s not it. It’s more like he doesn’t agree with me and instead of only acknowledging that fact, he has to attack those that he doesn’t agree with and he becomes an irritant only worthy of ridicule. He doesn’t know how to accept others that have different points of view. It does charge the atmosphere on this forum negatively.

Is that only you who said that or other people does that too?

If I understand the question, it is perhaps both. Chomsky is completely unreliable and that is what has been established. It seems that to me, Pappe is cut from the same fabric as Chomsky.

Actually they(Palestinian) did not pick up a fight.The fight was forced upon them when they were playing with their children.

Really? History would disagree. The Palestinian (Actually they probably weren’t Palestinians then) forced the fight, Israel has been responding only in kind. Yes, there has been tit-for-tat between Muslim and Jew but life as a Dhimmi in Islamic controlled lands is a target as pogroms that occurred between the 16th and 19th Centuries.

In the article 2 of UN genocide convention they said <rest snipped for brevity>

Israel has never expressed the intent to destroy in whole or in part of the “so called” Palestinian culture, but it has reacted punitively to the Palestinian intent to destroy Israel in whole. At one time the Hamas and Hezbollah constitutions contained the desire to destroy Israel. For Hezbollah, it had been their only reason to exist. If you want more intent then look to Jordan and Lebanon. I don’t know if it is so much anymore but Black September was an act of genocide on the Palestinian. And the treatment that Lebanon currently shows the Palestinian is destroying them in part. Why don’t you show distain toward Jordan and Lebanon as well? I’ll tell you why, they aren’t Israel and for no other reason.

What do you think will happen when Palestinian elders sends pregnant women into no-man’s land? If you put your hand in the face of a hungry lion and he bites it off, do you blame the lion? If you jump off a cliff and smash yourself on the rocks, do you blame the rocks for your death? The Palestinian is a master at staging “atrocities”. As long as they have human fodder to throw at Israel, any effort to destroy Israel is worth the loss of life.

So you go to build hospital in Gaza and those IDF shoots you just like the turkey ship.IDF will say they were terrorist

That is very possible. A hospital naturally draws terrorists to use as a base. So if it gets destroyed, it’s because it is not being used as what it was intended to be used as. Whose fault it that? The “turkey ship” is the MV Mavi Marmara and it was a direct violation of Israeli sovereignty. That was its intention. The other 5 ships participated in passive resistance and no one got killed. The flotilla failed when activists on the Mavi attacked Israeli commandos and they were forced to defend themselves. This was another feeble attempt to stage an “atrocity” using unsuspecting people, non-Palestinian in this case.

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DeWitz

@RavenHawk--- I am unaware where or how Noam Chomsky has been widely discredited (above: "unreliable. . what has been established.") Perhaps I've not been paying recent attention to him, but his assessment of the post 9/11 American (USA) reality has been largely accurate.

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RavenHawk

@RavenHawk--- I am unaware where or how Noam Chomsky has been widely discredited (above: "unreliable. . what has been established.") Perhaps I've not been paying recent attention to him, but his assessment of the post 9/11 American (USA) reality has been largely accurate.

I’ve always have seen where he has been discredited. For example, in his assessment of 9/11 he believes that the act was a crime. It was in fact an act of war. He simply does not understand the Islamic mindset. Western and Islamic sensibilities are totally different. But this sounds like the subject of a new thread if you want to take the time to start it.

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DeWitz

I've always have seen where he has been discredited. For example, in his assessment of 9/11 he believes that the act was a crime. It was in fact an act of war. He simply does not understand the Islamic mindset. Western and Islamic sensibilities are totally different. But this sounds like the subject of a new thread if you want to take the time to start it.

Thanks for the reply.

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Space Commander Travis

@RavenHawk--- I am unaware where or how Noam Chomsky has been widely discredited.

He's a Leftie.

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Space Commander Travis

I've always have seen where he has been discredited. For example, in his assessment of 9/11 he believes that the act was a crime. It was in fact an act of war. He simply does not understand the Islamic mindset. Western and Islamic sensibilities are totally different. But this sounds like the subject of a new thread if you want to take the time to start it.

So "being discredited" means "he has a different opinion to me, therefore he's obviously wrong", then?

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SolarPlexus
Chomsky is completely unreliable

xD

YOU are unreliable ! !

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jeem

That's not it. It's more like he doesn't agree with me and instead of only acknowledging that fact, he has to attack those that he doesn't agree with and he becomes an irritant only worthy of ridicule. He doesn't know how to accept others that have different points of view. It does charge the atmosphere on this forum negatively.

OK I got the point you doesn't agree with him so his comments are low standard.

If I understand the question, it is perhaps both. Chomsky is completely unreliable and that is what has been established. It seems that to me, Pappe is cut from the same fabric as Chomsky.

Don't care about Chomsky but Pappe. Does other people consider him unreliable?

Really? History would disagree. The Palestinian (Actually they probably weren't Palestinians then) forced the fight, Israel has been responding only in kind.

I guess it's the Zionist version of history.

Israel has never expressed the intent to destroy in whole or in part of the "so called" Palestinian culture, but it has reacted punitively to the Palestinian intent to destroy Israel in whole.

Agree with you they never expressed anything they just do whatever they want since there is no one stopping them .

At one time the Hamas and Hezbollah constitutions contained the desire to destroy Israel. For Hezbollah, it had been their only reason to exist.

Israel also contained the desire to destroy Hamas and Hezbollah.

If you want more intent then look to Jordan and Lebanon. I don't know if it is so much anymore but Black September was an act of genocide on the Palestinian. And the treatment that Lebanon currently shows the Palestinian is destroying them in part.

You never mention the catalyst behind black September and it is genocide according to the definition of genocide written in Zionist dictionary.

Why don't you show distain toward Jordan and Lebanon as well? I'll tell you why, they aren't Israel and for no other reason.

Well they are not oppressing innocent people.

What do you think will happen when Palestinian elders sends pregnant women into no-man's land? If you put your hand in the face of a hungry lion and he bites it off, do you blame the lion? If you jump off a cliff and smash yourself on the rocks, do you blame the rocks for your death? The Palestinian is a master at staging "atrocities". As long as they have human fodder to throw at Israel, any effort to destroy Israel is worth the loss of life.

Since IDF destroys hopitals and facility is very poor for Israeli sanction they do not have much choice.More like someone make you put your hand inside of a hungry lion

That is very possible. A hospital naturally draws terrorists to use as a base. So if it gets destroyed, it's because it is not being used as what it was intended to be used as. Whose fault it that? The "turkey ship" is the MV Mavi Marmara and it was a direct violation of Israeli sovereignty. That was its intention. The other 5 ships participated in passive resistance and no one got killed. The flotilla failed when activists on the Mavi attacked Israeli commandos and they were forced to defend themselves. This was another feeble attempt to stage an "atrocity" using unsuspecting people, non-Palestinian in this case.

Actually what happened the IDF want the Palestinian to suffer so they did not let reliefs to enter Gaza

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