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Iran Hasn't attacked anyone in 200 years

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and then

Will you please quit using me not loving your god as an excuse to justify wickedness committed by christian groups, they are christian's (they have declared it) and they are wicked. They are groups who kill the jews in the name of god (and the preservation of the white race), who were inspired by verses in the O.T. and N.T.

They are wicked, and they are haters.

I.M.O., they do a better job at following verses in the bible than 99% of christian church goers.

Again it is you doing the characterizing MC. We simply disagree on who is a Christian. Christ was very clear that not all who claimed his name were truly his followers. If one does not love their neighbor and follow the other commandments of Christ then they are as "Christian" as "Muslims" who love to eat pork or Buddhists who love to kill. Calling oneself something does not make it so. Your hatred of God is sad but immaterial to me otherwise. The fact that you spew that hate regularly is annoying but if it comforts you in some way then go for it. As for your examples - I agree that they are haters and are NOT of God at all.

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GoldenWolf

Again it is you doing the characterizing MC. We simply disagree on who is a Christian. Christ was very clear that not all who claimed his name were truly his followers. If one does not love their neighbor and follow the other commandments of Christ then they are as "Christian" as "Muslims" who love to eat pork or Buddhists who love to kill. Calling oneself something does not make it so. Your hatred of God is sad but immaterial to me otherwise. The fact that you spew that hate regularly is annoying but if it comforts you in some way then go for it. As for your examples - I agree that they are haters and are NOT of God at all.

You absolutely can't believe that there are bad christians out there? You have let your own pride overrule all reason and sense. Nobody can have a logical debate with you, nobody.

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RoofGardener

MC, you didn't read And-Then's post. He responded to your question about 'bad christians', but you ignored it and then attacked him. Bad on you !

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and then

MC, you didn't read And-Then's post. He responded to your question about 'bad christians', but you ignored it and then attacked him. Bad on you !

I have tried similarly to explain the point and he does not seem capable of understanding that I don't support those who do evil - no matter who's name they do it in. I'm glad at least someone read it and hopefully understood the point I was trying to explain.
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Earl.Of.Trumps

Then accomplish that if you can. The whole "self fulfilling" aspect of prophecy is a delusion all it's own. Those who use it have no other answer for how such things could happen - without God, that is :) Some have gone so far as denying the date the book of Daniel because it is so accurate. No need to argue the point though.

Let me see if I read you correctly.

Do you think that the Ashkenazi Jews in the Levant are doing "God's work" ?

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Earl.Of.Trumps

That's because there were no "Palestinians" at that time, Earl.

Yikes. You should put in what this statement is in reference to. I have no idea.

But I will say, that "Palestine" is about = the Levant,and anyone who lived in it was "Palestinian",

regardless of ethnicity/religion. It is like living in America or UK, your ethnicity/religion does NOT

cancel out your being American or Brit. The name "Palestine" started around 1000 ad, and even

the Jews who lived there, like Golda Meir were Palestinian.

There WERE Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians though. The same who refuse to resettle the people who were in Palestine - that land that was initially GIVEN to the Jews by the UN. Describe it as you will but no Israeli army existed either.

Ok, they had no formal army, they had very efficient terrorist groups. Efficient enough to remove over

600,000 people in over 400 villages and towns in *MANDATED* Palestine. And if neighboring nations

did not intercede, the Jews in the "Jewish homeland" would have down in '47 what they did in'67, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

Lehi (Hebrew pronunciation: [ˈleχi]; Hebrew: לח"י – לוחמי חרות ישראל‎ Lohamei Herut Israel - Lehi, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel - Lehi"), commonly referred to in English as the Stern Gang,[9][10][11][12] was a militant Zionist group founded by Avraham ("Yair") Stern in the British Mandate of Palestine.[13][14] Its avowed aim was forcibly evicting the British authorities from Palestine, allowing unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state. It was initially called the National Military Organization in Israel,[1] upon being founded in August 1940, but was renamed Lehi one month later.

more citings of Jewish terorism in the Levant http://www.rense.com/general21/pastzionist.htm

-------------- (emphasis added)

There are more groups than Lehi, too

Just a loosely structured defense force that was motivated by horrors no one else at the time could even imagine. No need to argue this point Earl.

There is LOTS and LOTS of need to argue it. You need to have your eyes opened.

I think you are afraid to know the truths that have been hidden.

I can see you are cut from the same cloth as Yam and the little private,er, Col. We will never agree on this one so no need to be uncivil on my part. I don't agree with everything the Israeli government does but I sure as hell prefer them to the Palestinian solution to this problem. If they have their way I believe nukes will eventually bloom over the M.E. and that helps no one.

From *OUR* point of view, no. It helps us NOT.

But from radical PoV, they may think that id *they* can't have it back, Jews won't have it either.

Meaning, The Jews have a lot more to lose. The Jews, like the Pals, will no longer have the Levant,

they will have nothing.

That finally makes them equal.

Have a good one

Earl.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

If it is a war crime then the world should come and force the issue.

Exactly. That is what the Arab nations, long ago, tried *in vein* to get the UN to do. do SOMETHING.

This seems to be what will happen eventually - IMO the sooner the better. But I think the world has shown that with the exception of practiced barbarians like Putin the rest of the leaders are only gutless pretenders. Haters and cowards. I argue these points as an exercise in my view of justice NOT as a concern for Israel's future. That future is quite secure.

"and then"... personally, I would not invest in any long term Israeli War Bonds any time soon, ya know? :whistle:

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Earl.Of.Trumps

What do you know of my situation or the consequences I deal with? There are many parts of the world (Ireland among them I think) where I'd be subjected to true physical threats and abuse for my faith in this matter. And not because my ideals harm anyone - only because of the intolerance of those who support the "underdog". I have the ability to laugh and shrug off the haters because I believe what the book says about scoffers like yourself, simian. The bible even says that in the last days men will kill Jews thinking they are doing a service to God. Does that sound like any group we know of these days? If you do happen to have your eyes opened before the end just remember that all it takes is being truly repentant of thought and deed.

Interesting, this religion thing!

And I bet dollars to donuts that Jews think they did a good service to God by clearing God's land of all those TaTa people, eh?

Just guessing :blush:

Edited by Earl.Of.Trumps
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Earl.Of.Trumps

Again it is you doing the characterizing MC. We simply disagree on who is a Christian. Christ was very clear that not all who claimed his name were truly his followers. If one does not love their neighbor and follow the other commandments of Christ then they are as "Christian" as "Muslims" who love to eat pork or Buddhists who love to kill. Calling oneself something does not make it so. Your hatred of God is sad but immaterial to me otherwise. The fact that you spew that hate regularly is annoying but if it comforts you in some way then go for it. As for your examples - I agree that they are haters and are NOT of God at all.

Psssst... Word: Christ said, "ALL children are God's children". Take that to mean ALL children, not just the ones you prefer.

So, are you a Christian?

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and then

Psssst... Word: Christ said, "ALL children are God's children". Take that to mean ALL children, not just the ones you prefer.

So, are you a Christian?

Absolutely. I believe completely that Jesus Christ (the anointed one) was God in human form and came to bear the sin of mankind as a sacrifice. He was executed, buried and rose physically from death on the third day. THIS is the gospel - not the feel good - everyone's the same no matter what. We are not to hate others but neither are we to fellowship with those who choose sin even when they know the truth. And I'd like to see the chapter and number of the "verse" you quote. I don't seem to recall where it is.

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GoldenWolf

MC, you didn't read And-Then's post. He responded to your question about 'bad christians', but you ignored it and then attacked him. Bad on you !

He denied there are bad christians, he just goes to say they aren't christian at all. If he can't recognize there are bad ones out there, the only logical conclusion is that he is blind with pride. I'm an atheist and I recognize that there are bad atheists out there. He paints a picture like they are all perfectly perfect, I'm trying to assure him they aren't. It's like he is trying to pass the blame onto all non-christians.

Edited by Mystic Crusader

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and then

He denied there are bad christians, he just goes to say they aren't christian at all. If he can't recognize there are bad ones out there, the only logical conclusion is that he is blind with pride. I'm an atheist and I recognize that there are bad atheists out there. He paints a picture like they are all perfectly perfect, I'm trying to assure him they aren't. It's like he is trying to pass the blame onto all non-christians.

I guess I'm wondering why this seems so important to you MC. Yes, Christians are human, yes all humans are failed and do wrong - some more than others. Are Christians evil? I say that those human beings who do evil things KNOWINGLY and while calling themselves by Christ's name do not actually know him at all. It seems to me that your need is to somehow prove that people who call themselves Christian are just as broken as the rest of humanity. You are CORRECT, we are. The difference is that we recognize this fact and strive to change into a more Christ - like person. Some have more success than others but if we BELIEVE the gospel and ask God for forgiveness of our sin, he is faithful to forgive us. Those who deny God's existence and taunt all who speak of him do not have this promise. But they CAN have it if they repent.
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Frank Merton

There are bad Christians, bad Muslims, bad Jews, bad Communists, bad atheists, bad Hindus and even bad Buddhists.

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DeWitz

@Earl.of.Trumps: On 4/16/14 you wrote in a post, "The name Palestine started around 1,000 A.D.

In fact, Palestine, as "Palestina" (Latin) was referred to on Roman and other European maps as "Palestina" as early as 200 B.C.

It was a geographic, not ethnic, designation from those earlier times and onward (forward into history). The area, as far back as the time of Christ (probably much earlier) was a polyglot region which used to get periodically run over by a variety of militarized, expansionist nation-states (among them, in no particular order, the Hittites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, European Crusader cults/bands, Ottomans, etc. etc.). During these times there was a Jewish presence, if not hegemony, in the region (including the small kingdoms of Israel and Judah, and later, after occupation by Rome, the lands of Idumea, Judea, Samaria and Galilee, with portions of the region divided into the quasi-kingdoms of the Seleucids, successors of the Greeks but largely intermingled/intermarried with the locals).

This is not to insert myself into this debate, but only to clarify how early the term "Palestine/Palestina" was in usage in the so-called "West" (and to state that, while thus named, the preceding and succeeding periods there were rarely homogenous either ethnically or politically).

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GoldenWolf

There are bad Christians, bad Muslims, bad Jews, bad Communists, bad atheists, bad Hindus and even bad Buddhists.

Exactly my point, there is also good ones of each one.

Again it is you doing the characterizing MC. We simply disagree on who is a Christian. Christ was very clear that not all who claimed his name were truly his followers. If one does not love their neighbor and follow the other commandments of Christ then they are as "Christian" as "Muslims" who love to eat pork or Buddhists who love to kill. Calling oneself something does not make it so. Your hatred of God is sad but immaterial to me otherwise. The fact that you spew that hate regularly is annoying but if it comforts you in some way then go for it. As for your examples - I agree that they are haters and are NOT of God at all.

I guess I'm wondering why this seems so important to you MC. Yes, Christians are human, yes all humans are failed and do wrong - some more than others. Are Christians evil? I say that those human beings who do evil things KNOWINGLY and while calling themselves by Christ's name do not actually know him at all. It seems to me that your need is to somehow prove that people who call themselves Christian are just as broken as the rest of humanity. You are CORRECT, we are. The difference is that we recognize this fact and strive to change into a more Christ - like person. Some have more success than others but if we BELIEVE the gospel and ask God for forgiveness of our sin, he is faithful to forgive us. Those who deny God's existence and taunt all who speak of him do not have this promise. But they CAN have it if they repent.

If the christians who do evil in the name of god aren't christian, then what are they?

Edited by Mystic Crusader

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Br Cornelius

You cannot wash the blood out of the cloak of christian history - it stretches for 2000 years of genocide against various flavours of infidel and occasionally against out of favour flavours of christianity.

Quite frankly christ would be mightily ashamed of the abuse his name has been subjected to and it would be a good thing at this stage to drop the term "christian" as been far to badly tainted for useful application.

Br Cornelius

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and then

You cannot wash the blood out of the cloak of christian history - it stretches for 2000 years of genocide against various flavours of infidel and occasionally against out of favour flavours of christianity.

Quite frankly christ would be mightily ashamed of the abuse his name has been subjected to and it would be a good thing at this stage to drop the term "christian" as been far to badly tainted for useful application.

Br Cornelius

Yet you seem to revel in using it to condemn others. I have no need to wash away anything - your opinion of Christianity and Christians is your own and you are welcome to it.

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Br Cornelius

Yet you seem to revel in using it to condemn others. I have no need to wash away anything - your opinion of Christianity and Christians is your own and you are welcome to it.

I am just stating historical facts. I find that many christians still fit the mould. I would consider Jesus a great man if he was around today - but I doubt he would have anything to do with any of the churches which have adopted the historic Jesus as a mascot.

Br Cornelius

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and then

I am just stating historical facts. I find that many christians still fit the mould. I would consider Jesus a great man if he was around today - but I doubt he would have anything to do with any of the churches which have adopted the historic Jesus as a mascot.

Br Cornelius

And you would be correct again. If you read the first chapters of the book of Revelation you'll find that Christ himself says of the end times church (Laodicea) that they make him want to vomit. But to condemn those who do try and paint all with such condemnation while simultaneously denying the existence of the God they worship makes you...what..exactly? A hater? A malcontent, or just some sort of secular doomsayer? Believe it or not there are actually people in the world who don't think as you do - who actually have a grasp of where they fit in the grand scheme and really don't concern themselves with the opinions of a self appointed intellectual elite.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Absolutely. I believe completely that Jesus Christ (the anointed one) was God in human form and came to bear the sin of mankind as a sacrifice. He was executed, buried and rose physically from death on the third day. THIS is the gospel - not the feel good - everyone's the same no matter what.

Really!?!?!?

So that means if the Muslims steal the Levant from the Jews,

you will treat the Muslims exactly how you treat the Jews *right NOW*.

Am I reading you correctly, you good Christian, you?

We are not to hate others but neither are we to fellowship with those who choose sin even when they know the truth.

My friend, you have chosen to side with the Israelis, the people that have committed atrocities to God's innocent creations, - the Muslims.

I thought we were all EQUAL?

And I'd like to see the chapter and number of the "verse" you quote. I don't seem to recall where it is.

Fine!

"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you"

Have a good one. Tell Jesus I said "hello", and "when are you going to come down and clear up this MESS?"

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and then

Really!?!?!?

So that means if the Muslims steal the Levant from the Jews,

you will treat the Muslims exactly how you treat the Jews *right NOW*.

Am I reading you correctly, you good Christian, you?

My friend, you have chosen to side with the Israelis, the people that have committed atrocities to God's innocent creations, - the Muslims.

I thought we were all EQUAL?

Fine!

"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you"

Have a good one. Tell Jesus I said "hello", and "when are you going to come down and clear up this MESS?"

You took my quote out of context - possibly because it wasn't clear. I was stating that the secular gospel of man is that all people are the same no matter what they do, how they live or what choices they make. God states clearly that the path to him is narrow. I'm not going to waste a lot of time with you Earl over my beliefs it's pointless. I DO side with the Jews - no shame there. I also make very clear that I don't agree with much that they do in the way they treat the Muslims in their midst - but they aren't Christian are they? As for your last statement - I realize you are mocking me and it's okay because if what I believe is true then your plea is going to shortly be granted. And Earl? We have to account for every idle word.

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Yamato

I DO side with the Jews - no shame there.

No you do not side with "the Jews". You side with Zionists. I know you can't tell the two apart, so best leave it to others like me and Earl who can.

I also make very clear that I don't agree with much that they do in the way they treat the Muslims in their midst - but they aren't Christian are they?

You've never made that very clear to me before. All I do is argue about Israeli policy and usually it's with you. So you appease your preferred crimes because they aren't committed by Christians? Why does that matter?

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Br Cornelius

And you would be correct again. If you read the first chapters of the book of Revelation you'll find that Christ himself says of the end times church (Laodicea) that they make him want to vomit. But to condemn those who do try and paint all with such condemnation while simultaneously denying the existence of the God they worship makes you...what..exactly? A hater? A malcontent, or just some sort of secular doomsayer? Believe it or not there are actually people in the world who don't think as you do - who actually have a grasp of where they fit in the grand scheme and really don't concern themselves with the opinions of a self appointed intellectual elite.

I don't have to believe in God to read history. I don't have to believe in God to see your inability to apply moral principles because of your belief in God. I don't have to like a group of people who would in all likelyhood would have attempted to kill me for my lack of belief. You are only looking at this from the perspective of God exists and everything else follows from that presumption. I do not work from that presumption so have no reason to justify the atrocities of the Christians in the past or their condoning of atrocities in the present (Israel and its apatite regime).

I am a witness to the truths of history - not a witness to a fictional character called God.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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Frank Merton

To an extent people will do what they want to do and then find ways to use their religion as an excuse. One would think, though, that religions would have at least some ability to restrain some of this. As far as I can tell most religions encourages more than restrains.

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and then

To an extent people will do what they want to do and then find ways to use their religion as an excuse. One would think, though, that religions would have at least some ability to restrain some of this. As far as I can tell most religions encourages more than restrains.

The bottom line for me , Frank, is that if one person is to judge another in this life then it should be done based solely on their actions. Not on the history of others who share the same belief system or even on their words about themselves - only on their "fruits". There seems to be a growing need to state that all belief in a Creator is useless except to cause harm. When one accepts this then the alternative is that only man can make the rules. Your point is well taken - man usually makes his own rules anyway, then uses God as an excuse for his actions. But when everything is done in this way we get the world we live in today, don't we? I understand the lack of faith - I've stated it many times. That is no problem for me but the venom against those who do believe needs to be challenged imo. Not in a hateful way, rather in a measured and quiet insistance that man's way isn't all it's cracked up to be either.
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