Sir Smoke aLot Posted August 22, 2014 #51 Share Posted August 22, 2014 So you are saying we shouldn't discuss these ideas because they are religion. (see quote at the bottom \/). I wish the people who believe this nonsense would just sit back and let Allah, Jehovah or whatever you call him throw rocks and let the rocks fall as the may, but they are doing it for for him and using it as an excuse to try to make everyone believe their nonsense, whatever it is. There are plenty of rocks up there in space and sooner or later our luck is going to run out, because people would rather spend the worlds resources on nonsense than saving 4 billion mutant tailless monkeys from themselves. Maybe it is for the best, the Earth will go on long after we are gone and I am sure we are not going to be missed by the beings who share this world. Send me some of what you're smoking, I could use some oblivion to what is going on in the world. No i am saying that we should not dismiss those ideas because they are religion, my English is not great but i can't understand how did you made such conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted August 22, 2014 Author #52 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I agree completely. I find almost everything that is 'pushed' repulsive. Be it coming from 'Muslims', 'Zionists', 'Christians', 'Scientoligists', 'Jehova's Witnesses', 'Atheists', 'Socialists', or 'the mainstream media'. You must realize, 90% of the Muslim population couldnt give a rats *rse what you or anyone else does or does not believe. Only difference is, its 'hot' (read: 'a trend') to demonize Islam these days. Putting the (extreme) margin in the spotlight. Muslim = enemy / Islam = terror. Thats the picture they are feeding us. The true source of the War on Terror however, is not Islamic. I can see how the Native Americans would see the Mountains and Valleys as a giant Turtles back.Even Earth tremors can be associated with the Turtle moving. Maybe if you happen to perform Street Dahwah?Maybe you will be asked by a nonbeliever one day about the Lamps hung in the lower Heavens for beauty and protection? Quran 2:159 Sahih International: Indeed, those who conceal what We sent down of clear proofs and guidance after We made it clear for the people in the Scripture - those are cursed by Allah and cursed by those who curse, Pickthall: Lo! Those who hide the proofs and the guidance which We revealed, after We had made it clear to mankind in the Scripture: such are accursed of Allah and accursed of those who have the power to curse. Yusuf Ali: Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be Allah's curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,- Shakir: Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too). Muhammad Sarwar: Those who hide the authoritative proofs and the guidance that We have revealed, after it has been made clear for the People of the Book, will be condemned by God and those who have the right to condemn. Mohsin Khan: Verily, those who conceal the clear proofs, evidences and the guidance, which We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, they are the ones cursed by Allah and cursed by the cursers. Arberry: Those who conceal the clear signs and the guidance that We have sent down, after We have shown them clearly in the Book -- they shall be cursed by God and the cursers, http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=159 Quran 3:104 Sahih International: And let there be [arising] from you a nation inviting to [all that is] good, enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong, and those will be the successful. Pickthall: And there may spring from you a nation who invite to goodness, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency. Such are they who are successful. Yusuf Ali: Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity. Shakir: And from among you there should be a party who invite to good and enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong, and these it is that shall be successful. Muhammad Sarwar: Let there be a group among you who will invite others to do good deeds, command them to obey the Law, and prohibit them from committing sins. These people will have eternal happiness. Mohsin Khan: Let there arise out of you a group of people inviting to all that is good (Islam), enjoining Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do) and forbidding Al-Munkar (polytheism and disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden). And it is they who are the successful. Arberry: Let there be one nation of you, calling to good, and bidding to honour, and forbidding dishonour; those are the prosperers. http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=104 Quran 16:125 Sahih International: Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided. Pickthall: Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way. Lo! thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright. Yusuf Ali: Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. Shakir: Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in the best manner; surely your Lord best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best those who follow the right way. Muhammad Sarwar: Call (the pagans) to the path of your Lord through wisdom and good advice and argue with them in the best manner. God knows well about those who stray from His path and those who seek guidance. Mohsin Khan: Invite (mankind, O Muhammad SAW) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Inspiration and the Quran) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided. Arberry: Call thou to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and good admonition, and dispute with them in the better way. Surely thy Lord knows very well those who have gone astray from His way, and He knows very well those who are guided. http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=16&verse=125 Quran 41:33 Sahih International: And who is better in speech than one who invites to Allah and does righteousness and says, "Indeed, I am of the Muslims." Pickthall: And who is better in speech than him who prayeth unto his Lord and doeth right, and saith: Lo! I am of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him). Yusuf Ali: Who is better in speech than one who calls (men) to Allah, works righteousness, and says, "I am of those who bow in Islam"? Shakir: And who speaks better than he who calls to Allah while he himself does good, and says: I am surely of those who submit? Muhammad Sarwar: Who speaks better than one who invites human beings to God, acts righteously and says, "I am a Muslim". Mohsin Khan: And who is better in speech than he who [says: "My Lord is Allah (believes in His Oneness)," and then stands straight (acts upon His Order), and] invites (men) to Allah's (Islamic Monotheism), and does righteous deeds, and says: "I am one of the Muslims." Arberry: And who speaks fairer than he who calls unto God and does righteousness and says, 'Surely I am of them that surrender'? http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=41&verse=33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted August 22, 2014 #53 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I know what Pantheists believe. Kinda like Christians who dont see God as independent of Yeshua, that Yeshua is G*d.. Look, the point was even Einstein had 'a religion', even mr. science himself posed the one could not exist without the other, and not lose a certain balance. Nope that is not even close to what most Pantheists believe. If your not going to bother look at the sites I posted why bother to answer back. It is easy to put words in a dead man's mouth, he can't argue back. Have some respect for the man. No i am saying that we should not dismiss those ideas because they are religion, my English is not great but i can't understand how did you made such conclusion. What I am saying is there is nothing wrong with pointing out religious baloney, either. I am used to Abrahamic religious people attacking my religion, telling me I am going to hell. Hell would beat going to heaven with with them that is for sure. You want to believe Allah is sending rocks to punish the evil folks then fine, sorry about your luck. Looks like his aim is kind of bad, I am still here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted August 22, 2014 #54 Share Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) Nope that is not even close to what most Pantheists believe. If your not going to bother look at the sites I posted why bother to answer back. It is easy to put words in a dead man's mouth, he can't argue back. Have some respect for the man. You misunderstand my point. Pantheists believe nature / universe (ie. creation) - for all intents and purposes - equals G*d, correct? Thus, in my eyes, both Pantheism as well as Christianity see a creation as G*d, as divine, instead of a distinct and seperate creator - existing outside the creation (the universe). Again; the links you provided contain information concerning the negative point of view Einstein had in regards to the concept of a personal god, not the concept of G*d. If you have a point to make, stop referring to some random links and verbalise it yourself. Edited August 22, 2014 by Phaeton80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted August 22, 2014 Author #55 Share Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) Any lurkers out there that like this thread? Be sure to pass it on. Quran 40:69 Sahih International: Do you not consider those who dispute concerning the signs of Allah - how are they averted? Pickthall: Hast thou not seen those who wrangle concerning the revelations of Allah, how they are turned away? - Yusuf Ali: Seest thou not those that dispute concerning the Signs of Allah? How are they turned away (from Reality)?- Shakir: Have you not seen those who dispute with respect to the communications of Allah: how are they turned away? Muhammad Sarwar: Have you not seen how those who dispute the revelations of God, turn away from Truth to falsehood? Mohsin Khan: See you not those who dispute about the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah? How are they turning away (from the truth, i.e. Islamic Monotheism to the falsehood of polytheism)? Arberry: Hast thou not regarded those who dispute concerning the signs of God, how they are turned about? http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=40&verse=69 40:70 Sahih International: In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful. Pickthall: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. Yusuf Ali: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Shakir: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. Muhammad Sarwar: In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful Mohsin Khan: In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. Arberry: In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate 40:71 Sahih International: When the shackles are around their necks and the chains; they will be dragged Pickthall: When carcans are about their necks and chains. They are dragged Yusuf Ali: When the yokes (shall be) round their necks, and the chains; they shall be dragged along- Shakir: When the fetters and the chains shall be on their necks; they shall be dragged Muhammad Sarwar: when fetters will be placed around their necks and chains will drag them Mohsin Khan: When iron collars will be rounded over their necks, and the chains, they shall be dragged along. Arberry: When the fetters and chains are on their necks, and they dragged 40:72 Sahih International: In boiling water; then in the Fire they will be filled [with flame]. Pickthall: Through boiling waters; then they are thrust into the Fire. Yusuf Ali: In the boiling fetid fluid: then in the Fire shall they be burned; Shakir: Into boiling water, then in the fire shall they be burned; Muhammad Sarwar: into boiling water and then they will be burned in the fire. Mohsin Khan: In the boiling water, then they will be burned in the Fire. Arberry: into the boiling water, then into the Fire they are poured; 40:73 Sahih International: Then it will be said to them, "Where is that which you used to associate [with Him in worship] Pickthall: Then it is said unto them: Where are (all) that ye used to make partners (in the Sovereignty) Yusuf Ali: Then shall it be said to them: "Where are the (deities) to which ye gave part-worship- Shakir: Then shall it be said to them: Where is that which you used to set up Muhammad Sarwar: Then they will be asked, "Where are the idols which you worshipped besides God?" Mohsin Khan: Then it will be said to them: "Where are (all) those whom you used to join in worship as partners Arberry: then it is said to them, 'Where are those you associated, apart from God?' 40:74 Sahih International: Other than Allah ?" They will say, "They have departed from us; rather, we did not used to invoke previously anything." Thus does Allah put astray the disbelievers. Pickthall: Beside Allah? They say: They have failed us; but we used not to pray to anything before. Thus doth Allah send astray the disbelievers (in His guidance). Yusuf Ali: "In derogation of Allah?" They will reply: "They have left us in the lurch: Nay, we invoked not, of old, anything (that had real existence)." Thus does Allah leave the Unbelievers to stray. Shakir: Besides Allah? They shall say: They are gone away from us, nay, we used not to call upon anything before. Thus does Allah confound the unbelievers. Muhammad Sarwar: They will reply, "They have abandoned us. In fact, we had worshipped nothing" Thus does God cause the disbelievers to go astray. Mohsin Khan: "Besides Allah" They will say: "They have vanished from us: Nay, we did not invoke (worship) anything before." Thus Allah leads astray the disbelievers. Arberry: They shall say, 'They have gone astray from us; nay, but it was nothing at all that we called upon aforetime.' Even so God leads astray the unbelievers. 40:75 Sahih International: [The angels will say], "That was because you used to exult upon the earth without right and you used to behave insolently. Pickthall: (And it is said unto them): This is because ye exulted in the earth without right, and because ye were petulant. Yusuf Ali: "That was because ye were wont to rejoice on the earth in things other than the Truth, and that ye were wont to be insolent. Shakir: That is because you exulted in the land unjustly and because you behaved insolently. Muhammad Sarwar: They will be told, "This (torment) is the result of your unreasonable happiness on the earth and of your propagation of falsehood. Mohsin Khan: That was because you had been exulting in the earth without any right (by worshipping others instead of Allah and by committing crimes), and that you used to rejoice extremely (in your error). Arberry: 'That is because you rejoiced in the earth without right, and were exultant. 40:76 Sahih International: Enter the gates of Hell to abide eternally therein, and wretched is the residence of the arrogant." Pickthall: Enter ye the gates of hell, to dwell therein. Evil is the habitation of the scornful. Yusuf Ali: "Enter ye the gates of Hell, to dwell therein: and evil is (this) abode of the arrogant!" Shakir: Enter the gates of hell to abide therein, evil then is the abode of the proud. Muhammad Sarwar: Enter the gates of hell to live therein forever. How terrible is the dwelling of the arrogant ones. Mohsin Khan: Enter the gates of Hell to abide therein, and (indeed) what an evil abode of the arrogant! Arberry: Enter the gates of Gehenna, to dwell therein forever.' How evil is the lodging of those that are proud! Edited August 22, 2014 by davros of skaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted August 22, 2014 #56 Share Posted August 22, 2014 You misunderstand my point. Pantheists believe nature / universe (ie. creation) - for all intents and purposes - equals G*d, correct? Thus, in my eyes, both Pantheism as well as Christianity see a creation as G*d, as divine, instead of a distinct and seperate creator - existing outside the creation (the universe). Again; the links you provided contain information concerning the negative point of view Einstein had in regards to the concept of a personal god, not the concept of G*d. If you have a point to make, stop referring to some random links and verbalise it yourself. The Christians you know must be very different from the ones I know. They are the ones who keep telling me I worship the creation and not God. In Christian thought God is separate from the creation. He is the creator, not the creation. I was in my youth a Christian and got that concept run down my throat enough to know. It is some of why I am not a Christian. It makes no sense to me. In my case, as a Pantheistic Druid, there is no creator, creation is really birth. The Universe wasn't created it was born, just as you are born. As far as explaining what the websites explain at length, I am not going do your homework. If you don't wish to learn and you would rather wallow in your ignorance, then so be it. I know a waste of time when I see it. Just keep using your logical fallacy if you like, it shows you for who you are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted August 22, 2014 #57 Share Posted August 22, 2014 As far as explaining what the websites explain at length, I am not going do your homework. If you don't wish to learn and you would rather wallow in your ignorance, then so be it. I know a waste of time when I see it. Just keep using your logical fallacy if you like, it shows you for who you are. Thats nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLionsHunter Posted August 22, 2014 #58 Share Posted August 22, 2014 * snip - No imagination necessary Yes the seven different translations for each verse renders your question mute. Do you believe that the Stars in the sky are Lamps hung there for beauty and defense against Jinn? Do you avoid shows on science as not to put doubt in your faith? You did ignore my questions, and you gave question to be answered. that is so rude and inapropriate . I gave you questions to know your aim of discussin this subject and your knowledge of Quran translation but as it seems you are only cpying and posting an old subject. Anyway to let your mind rest in peace : In fact, even scientists believe that Stars are like lamps in the universe, as they are a light source for illiminating the planets. This is a metaphorical example for rounded meanings, and really they are so beautiful that even in poetry we make that kind of statement. I believe in science as much as there are so evidence in explaining the phenomenon naturaly or physicaly and my faith do not crossover with science at all. science is something that change through time and the evolution of thinking is always dynamic and my faith does not work that way. So I should not make both in the same pocket. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted August 23, 2014 #59 Share Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) All God's, angels, and demons exist within your mind, and are as real as you want them to be. If there is a God, how many will have to answer it with blood soaked hands and carrying the chains of pain that they gave others? If you want peace, become peaceful. If you want honesty, be honest. If you desire love, become loving. Indeed become the change you desire in the world. Edited August 23, 2014 by XenoFish 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted August 23, 2014 Author #60 Share Posted August 23, 2014 You did ignore my questions, and you gave question to be answered. that is so rude and inapropriate . I gave you questions to know your aim of discussin this subject and your knowledge of Quran translation but as it seems you are only cpying and posting an old subject. Anyway to let your mind rest in peace : In fact, even scientists believe that Stars are like lamps in the universe, as they are a light source for illiminating the planets. This is a metaphorical example for rounded meanings, and really they are so beautiful that even in poetry we make that kind of statement. I believe in science as much as there are so evidence in explaining the phenomenon naturaly or physicaly and my faith do not crossover with science at all. science is something that change through time and the evolution of thinking is always dynamic and my faith does not work that way. So I should not make both in the same pocket. Quran 88:17 Then do they not look at the camels - how they are created? 88:18 And at the sky - how it is raised? 88:19 And at the mountains - how they are erected? 88:20 And at the earth - how it is spread out? 88:21 So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder. 88:22 You are not over them a controller. 88:23 However, he who turns away and disbelieves - 88:24 Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment. http://quran.com/88/17-24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eight bits Posted August 23, 2014 #61 Share Posted August 23, 2014 For some reason, Einstein gets drawn into these things. It is the fate of the dead to be drafted into the quarrels of the living. First, the alleged quote about Bible stories being "childish" was fabricated (possibly in ignorance, rather than malice, by an employee of an auction house that handled the letter some time ago; as is typical of the Internet, the truth will probably never catch up with the bullshine). What of the quote is accurate is misleadingly presented. The noun phrase "The word God" in context refers only to Eric Gutkind's highly personalized use of the word in the book Einstein comments on. Einstein had no problem with the word God, which he imagined to refer to something separate from Nature (and so not what the word "pantheist" means; however, Einstein was an admirer of Baruch Spinoiza for many issues that some people consider "religious," also Jesus - Einstein had a thing for Jewish mavericks). As to the Bible, Einstein inscribed a Christian Bible as follows: This book is an inexhaustible source of wisdom and comfort. Read in it often and gifts for you, http://uncertaintist.wordpress.com/2013/06/29/auction-of-a-bible-from-the-einsteins/ Nevertheless, it will not do to say simply Einstein's issue is with the concept of a personal god, not the concept of a transcendental G*d. Einstein had more problems with the concept of "G*d" than just its imagined-personhood. In the context of the thread, it is not just that G*d is depicted as a person, but that G*d intervenes in temporal affairs and "reveals" itself, expecting worship from people and attempting to influence their behavior. Einstein was especially sceptical of a reward-and-punishment dispensing G*d. Ironically, in light of the phrase "transcendental G*d," if there was a nub of the matter, for Einstein it might be that YHWH, Three-in-One and Allah don't transcend petty involvement in people's squabbles. Nor would Einstein's God have any interest in people falling to their knees, much less groveling in the dirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted August 23, 2014 Author #62 Share Posted August 23, 2014 If even if I was a God, I would be interested in the the same things as a mortel. No worship needed and discouraged.I just want to be invited to the party to hear the cute, interesting, and silly things that is the treasure of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted August 23, 2014 #63 Share Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) For those of you too lazy for doing any kind of research, here you go. Sorry, Saru. Make up your own mind. The nature of Spirituality is not about being a slave to thoughts of others, but an exploration of learning, reason, experience and finding your own wisdom. Spinoza and Einstein For more on Einstein and Spinoza see this page. Einstein's Poem About Spinoza From Jammer, p. 43; the complete poem is available in German in the Appendix of the book. How much do I love that noble man More than I could tell with words I fear though he'll remain alone With a holy halo of his own. Why Einstein Admires Spinoza From a letter to Dr. Dagobert Runes, Sept. 8, 1932, Einstein Archive, reel 33-286, quoted in Jammer, pp. 44 - 45 When asked to write short essay on "the ethical significance of Spinoza's philosophy," Einstein replied: I do not have the professional knowledge to write a scholarly article about Spinoza. But what I think about this man I can express in a few words. Spinoza was the first to apply with strict consistency the idea of an all-pervasive determinism to human thought, feeling, and action. In my opinion, his point of view has not gained general acceptance by all those striving for clarity and logical rigor only because it requires not only consistency of thought, but also unusual integrity, magnamity, and — modesty. The God of Einstein and Spinoza From a letter to Eduard Büsching, Oct. 25, 1929, Einstein Archive, reel 33-275, quoted in Jammer, p. 51: When its author sent a book There Is No God to Einstein, Einstein replied that the book did not deal with the notion of God, but only with that of a personal God. He suggested that the book should be titled There Is No Personal God. He added further: We followers of Spinoza see out God in the wonderful order and lawfulness of all that exists and in its soul as it reveals itself in man and animal.It is a different question whether belief in a personal God should be contested. Freud endorsed this view in his latest publication. I myself would never engage in such a task. For such a belief seems to me to the lack of any transcendental outlook of life, and I wonder whether on can ever successfully render to the majority of mankind a more sublime means in order to satisfy its metaphysical needs. Einstein's View of God — and Spinoza's From a letter to Murray W. Gross, Apr. 26, 1947, Einstein Archive, reel 33-324, Jammer, p. 138 - 139: When question about God and religion on behalf of an aged Talmudic scholar, Einstein replied: It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropomorphic concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near to those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem — the most important of all human problems. On Loving Your Enemies From a letter to Michele Besso, Jan. 6, 1948. Albert Einstein—Michele Besso, Correspondance 1903-1955 (Hermann, Paris, 1972) , p. 392. Einstein Archive, reel 7-382, quoted in Jammer, p.87. Jammer gives the quotation in its original German along with an English translation. I have taken the liberty of cleaning up the English, mainly by replacing "cogitative" with "cognitive" as the translation of "gedanklich." Upon a friend commending the Christian maxim "Love they enemy" Einstein replied: I agree with your remark about loving your enemy as far as actions are concerned. But for me the cognitive basis is the trust in an unrestricted causality. 'I cannot hate him, because he must do what he does.' That means for me more Spinoza than the prophets. Einstein's Religious Feeling My feeling is religious insofar as I am imbued with tile consciousness of the insufficiency of the human mind to understand more deeply the harmony of the Universe which we try to formulate as "laws of nature." — Letter to Beatrice Frohlich, December 17, 1952; Einstein Archive 59-797 Agnosticism My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment. — Letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215 A Religious Nonbeliever I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.... This is a somewhat new kind of religion. — Letter to Hans Muehsam March 30, 1954; Einstein Archive 38-434 Einstein's Religion My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive With our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible Universe, forms my idea of God. — Quoted in the New York Times obituary April 19, 1955 Einstein's Last Thoughts The following is taken from Clark, p. 622 Just as he dotted the i's and crossed the t's of his scientific beliefs during the last year or so of his life, so did he recapitulate his religious convictions. To Dr. Douglas he stated: “If I were not a Jew I would be a Quaker.” And in an interview with Professor William Hermanns, he said: “I cannot accept any concept of God based on the fear of life or the fear of death or blind faith. I cannot prove to you that there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him I would be a liar.”As to what one could believe in, the answer was simple enough. “I believe in the brotherhood of man and the uniqueness of the individual. But if you ask me to prove what I believe, I can't. You know them to be true but you could spend a whole lifetime without being able to prove them. The mind can proceed only so far upon what it knows and can prove. There comes a point where the mind takes a higher plane of knowledge, but can never prove how it got there. All great discoveries have involved such a leap.” edit Forgot the link to this website, http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/worldsee.html Edited August 23, 2014 by GreenmansGod 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLionsHunter Posted August 23, 2014 #64 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Quran 88:17 Then do they not look at the camels - how they are created? 88:18 And at the sky - how it is raised? 88:19 And at the mountains - how they are erected? 88:20 And at the earth - how it is spread out? 88:21 So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder. 88:22 You are not over them a controller. 88:23 However, he who turns away and disbelieves - 88:24 Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment. http://quran.com/88/17-24 why you post these verses ? I really find you very insecure. because instead of writing an adequate statements and replies, you throw verses for some unknown reason. Hope the admin lock this thread because there is no discussion and have nothing to do with skepticism and spirituality. Racist thread that attacks a group of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted August 23, 2014 Author #65 Share Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) why you post these verses ? I really find you very insecure. because instead of writing an adequate statements and replies, you throw verses for some unknown reason. Hope the admin lock this thread because there is no discussion and have nothing to do with skepticism and spirituality. Racist thread that attacks a group of people. Is it not good enough for you that my skin will confess my sins to the creator and I will then cry to Paradise from the pain of eternal flames? BTW...Islam is not a race. Edited August 23, 2014 by davros of skaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted August 23, 2014 #66 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Yeah.. Racism doesnt need to involve a race. Look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLionsHunter Posted August 23, 2014 #67 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Is it not good enough for you that my skin will confess my sins to the creator and I will then cry to Paradise from the pain of eternal flames? Where are you going with this question, what is your point, give us a clear idea about what is your position in this . BTW...Islam is not a race. Islam is religion, thus attacking some group based in their religion is racist. racism came in different way but it is always against people . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted August 24, 2014 #68 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Actually it would be religious bias not racism. Perhaps it would touch on racism if a single culture adhered to that particular religion. But that is purely subjective. In this world I no longer believe that sanity actually exist, we're all mad here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted August 24, 2014 Author #69 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Where are you going with this question, what is your point, give us a clear idea about what is your position in this . Islam is religion, thus attacking some group based in their religion is racist. racism came in different way but it is always against people . Quran 16:79 Sahih International: Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up except Allah. Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe. Pickthall: Have they not seen the birds obedient in mid-air? None holdeth them save Allah. Lo! herein, verily, are portents for a people who believe. Yusuf Ali: Do they not look at the birds, held poised in the midst of (the air and) the sky? Nothing holds them up but (the power of) Allah. Verily in this are signs for those who believe. Shakir: Do they not see the birds, constrained in the middle of the sky? None withholds them but Allah; most surely there are signs in this for a people who believe. Muhammad Sarwar: Have you not considered the free movements of the birds high in the sky above? What keeps them aloft except God? In this there is evidence (of the truth) for the believing people. Mohsin Khan: Do they not see the birds held (flying) in the midst of the sky? None holds them but Allah [none gave them the ability to fly but Allah]. Verily, in this are clear proofs and signs for people who believe (in the Oneness of Allah). Arberry: Have they not regarded the birds, that are subjected in the air of heaven? Naught holds them but God; surely in that are signs for' a people who believe. http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=16&verse=79 Quran 67:19 Sahih International: Do they not see the birds above them with wings outspread and [sometimes] folded in? None holds them [aloft] except the Most Merciful. Indeed He is, of all things, Seeing. Pickthall: Have they not seen the birds above them spreading out their wings and closing them? Naught upholdeth them save the Beneficent. Lo! He is Seer of all things. Yusuf Ali: Do they not observe the birds above them, spreading their wings and folding them in? None can uphold them except (Allah) Most Gracious: Truly (Allah) Most Gracious: Truly it is He that watches over all things. Shakir: Have they not seen the birds above them expanding (their wings) and contracting (them)? What is it that withholds them save the Beneficent Allah? Surely He sees everything. Muhammad Sarwar: Did they not see the birds above them, stretching out, and flapping their wings. No one keeps them up in the sky except the Beneficent God. He certainly watches over all things. Mohsin Khan: Do they not see the birds above them, spreading out their wings and folding them in? None upholds them except the Most Beneficent (Allah). Verily, He is the All-Seer of everything. Arberry: Have they not regarded the birds above them spreading their wings, and closing them? Naught holds them but the All-merciful. Surely He sees everything. http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=67&verse=19 67:20 Sahih International: Or who is it that could be an army for you to aid you other than the Most Merciful? The disbelievers are not but in delusion. Pickthall: Or who is he that will be an army unto you to help you instead of the Beneficent? The disbelievers are in naught but illusion. Yusuf Ali: Nay, who is there that can help you, (even as) an army, besides (Allah) Most Merciful? In nothing but delusion are the Unbelievers. Shakir: Or who is it that will be a host for you to assist you besides the Beneficent Allah? The unbelievers are only in deception. Muhammad Sarwar: Do you have any armies who will help you against the Beneficent God? The disbelievers are certainly deceived (by satan). Mohsin Khan: Who is he besides the Most Beneficent that can be an army to you to help you? The disbelievers are in nothing but delusion. Arberry: Or who is this that shall be a host for you to help you, apart from the All-merciful? The unbelievers are only in delusion. http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=67&verse=20 Miracles of Islam! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IA4oemvdxZ4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eight bits Posted August 24, 2014 #70 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Phaeton and LionsHunter Yeah.. Racism doesnt need to involve a race. It does, however, need to involve a group of human beings. Allah is not a human being, the Jinn against whom he is supposedly defending himself and his angels are not human beings, and verses from a book are not human beings. Racism is usually based on race, duh, and even when it is extended to other human groupings, what is objectionable is to misjudge a person's character based upon a circumsatnce of birth. A person has no control over those circumstances, and so they are irrelevant to personal character. What you believe about what you read in a book is not a circumstance of birth. Although there is no racism involved, your right to hold your opinion about what you read is protected, an integral part of what is meant in modern times by "civilized conduct.". However, I search in vain for the OP saying anything against any human being in connection with the verses he posts for disucssion. Contrary to another claim, he does disucss things with other posters. So. the statement Islam is religion, thus attacking some group based in their religion is racist. is an abuse of the language. The OP has attacked no person at all, much less attacked anybody based on a circumstance of birth. Islam is indeed a religion, and so it is a thing, not a person. Exhibiting truthfully what a religion teaches cannot be construed as an attack. Just as you are entitled to believe it, other posters are entitled to form and express their opinions about it, too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted August 24, 2014 #71 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Phaeton and LionsHunter It does, however, need to involve a group of human beings. Allah is not a human being, the Jinn against whom he is supposedly defending himself and his angels are not human beings, and verses from a book are not human beings. Racism is usually based on race, duh, and even when it is extended to other human groupings, what is objectionable is to misjudge a person's character based upon a circumsatnce of birth. A person has no control over those circumstances, and so they are irrelevant to personal character. What you believe about what you read in a book is not a circumstance of birth. Although there is no racism involved, your right to hold your opinion about what you read is protected, an integral part of what is meant in modern times by "civilized conduct.". However, I search in vain for the OP saying anything against any human being in connection with the verses he posts for disucssion. Contrary to another claim, he does disucss things with other posters. Informing and entertaining as your reaction is; nothing you have stated here goes against anything I have stated. You are also correct no one on this thread has been employing racism for all Im coincerned. Eventhough your own claims regarding Muslims 'groveling the ground' when praying, ofcourse, might very well be interpreted as constituting exactly that, racism. Funny that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted August 24, 2014 Author #72 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Informing and entertaining as your reaction is; nothing you have stated here goes against anything I have stated. You are also correct no one on this thread has been employing racism for all Im coincerned. Eventhough your own claims regarding Muslims 'groveling the ground' when praying, ofcourse, might very well be interpreted as constituting exactly that, racism. Funny that. The first hater was Iblis/Shaytan/Satan. Quran 7:11 Sahih International: And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], and given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated. Pickthall: And We created you, then fashioned you, then told the angels: Fall ye prostrate before Adam! And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who make prostration. Yusuf Ali: It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate. Shakir: And certainly We created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Prostrate to Adam. So they did prostrate except Iblis; he was not of those who prostrated. Muhammad Sarwar: We created and shaped you, then told the angels to prostrate themselves before Adam. All the angels obeyed except Satan who did not. Mohsin Khan: And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate. Arberry: We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the angels: 'Bow yourselves to Adam'; so they bowed themselves, save Iblis -- he was not of those that bowed themselves. 7:12 Sahih International: [Allah] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [satan] said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay." Pickthall: He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud. Yusuf Ali: (Allah) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay." Shakir: He said: What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you? He said: I am better than he: Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust. Muhammad Sarwar: God asked, "What made you disobey Me?" Satan replied, "I am better than Adam, for You have created me out of fire and Adam out of clay." Mohsin Khan: (Allah) said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." Arberry: Said He, 'What prevented thee to bow thyself, when I commanded thee?' Said he, 'I am better than he; Thou createdst me of fire, and him Thou createdst of clay.' 7:13 Sahih International: [Allah] said, "Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased. Pickthall: He said: Then go down hence! It is not for thee to show pride here, so go forth! Lo! thou art of those degraded. Yusuf Ali: (Allah) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)." Shakir: He said: Then get forth from this (state), for it does not befit you to behave proudly therein. Go forth, therefore, surely you are of the abject ones. Muhammad Sarwar: The Lord ordered Satan to get out (of Paradise) saying, "This is no place for you to be proud. Get out of this place, for you are worthless". Mohsin Khan: (Allah) said: "(O Iblis) get down from this (Paradise), it is not for you to be arrogant here. Get out, for you are of those humiliated and disgraced." Arberry: Said He, 'Get thee down out of it; it is not for thee to wax proud here, so go thou forth; surely thou art among the humbled.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eight bits Posted August 24, 2014 #73 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Phaeton Informing and entertaining as your reaction is; nothing you have stated here goes against anything I have stated. Then we appear to be in agreement. Glad to hear it. Eventhough your own claims regarding Muslims 'groveling the ground' when praying, I seem to recall you posting, about a common English word, Look it up. Of course, dictionaries are only descriptive, not prescriptive, and certainly not legislative, nevertheless, we can look up how people have used the verb to grovel. Moreover, I can point to which of those uses I had in mind. These are what I had in mind (note that I use American English; other dialects may have different shadings): Lie or move abjectly on the ground with one’s face downward:; Act in an obsequious manner in order to obtain someone’s forgiveness or favor:, ... http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/grovel The first clause is an objective description of a typical, normative and characteristic Islamic bodily posture during prayer, and the second is a reasoanble descitpion of the ostensible purpose of people in doing that. My "claims," then, are easily proved. I won't patronize you by pointing to documentary evidence on point, but if put to proof, you know damned well that I can deliver. ...ofcourse, might very well be interpreted as constituting exactly that, racism. I have no control over how other people interpret objectively accurate descriptions of anything, It is simply a fact, however, that adults choosing to engage in this behavior is a lifestyle choice, and cannot be explained by any circumstance of birth. Presumably, then, in light of our lack of mutual contradiction so far, you and I could agree that whoever did interpret my observation as "racist," errs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted August 24, 2014 #74 Share Posted August 24, 2014 To state Muslims 'grovel in the dirt' while referring to their prostration habits in prayer, is an extremely derogatory, disrespectful remark aimed at a whole religious congregation. So however fervently you've been trying to establish no racism has been used on this thread, it seems to me you have 'soiled' your own position quite effectively by using those terms. Which, ofcourse, is wondrously ironic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted August 24, 2014 #75 Share Posted August 24, 2014 I honestly could care less what they do with their faith, so long as they all leave everyone alone. Islam is westboro on a larger scale. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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