R.I.P. Dr. Roger Leir

[scowl]

You would believe anything Mr S, Always check sources and facts before taking things in.

OMG, you really think I didn't know? I was following the debate on the sci.skeptics forum on Usenet the first week that crook Santilli started peddling his ridiculous video!

And you're one to recommend checking sources and facts?

[psyche101]

Obviously those that debunk this phenomena get the big bucks also. People will do it for money either way. Debunk or Support.

Probably some college kids are getting their tuition paid to debunk or support it. Like the saying goes, "It's all about Money."

Nail on the head mate.

That's why we have to look ourselves, and these days, I think we are up to it. We have some pretty fancy toys these days, heck, when my son turned 8 I gave him night vision goggles! We have better and more advanced equipment than the entire staff of Bluebook ever dreamed of available at the local K Mart. We have an amatuer community of millions watching the skies 24/7, we have access to resources like heavens above and telescopes are really quite reasonably priced.

What we need to do is stop fawning over old cases that confused people. If ET is visiting, each person has the capability to research that. What we do not need are the naysayers of hard work who are lazy and just expect the Government to give them what they be too lazy to seek. The Government knows nothing, NASA knows nothing and Ed Mitchell says so. That much is plainly obvious by the actions of the global governments. It is just a silly fantasy that the USA is somehow special and holds secrets that nobody else can possibly uncover. Book and conferences simply offer these people the opportunity to avoid real work and chase dreams funded by the general public.

[psyche101]

Hey P, Since you are very good on finding info, See if you can find out how much celebs like Penn & Teller and Dan Aykroyd

get paid to debunk/support this phenomena. Maybe you can find links and post them. You've said you like challenges. Go for it.

Interesting idea! I'll see what I can find, a preliminary search indicates that Penn Jillettes Net worth is 175 million, and Dan Aykroyd down at 135 million.

[psyche101]

Not theories. Real bits and pieces lifted from people's limbs.

Yes.

Alien in origin.

No.

[psyche101]

Greer has never been debunked and neither has Leir. Skepticism isn't debunking.

Yes they have, even Edgar Mitchell distanced himself from Greer and asked him to remove any material Greer had used or gather from him. Belief is not counter debate.

[Hawken]

Nail on the head mate.

That's why we have to look ourselves, and these days, I think we are up to it. We have some pretty fancy toys these days, heck, when my son turned 8 I gave him night vision goggles! We have better and more advanced equipment than the entire staff of Bluebook ever dreamed of available at the local K Mart. We have an amatuer community of millions watching the skies 24/7, we have access to resources like heavens above and telescopes are really quite reasonably priced.

What we need to do is stop fawning over old cases that confused people. If ET is visiting, each person has the capability to research that. What we do not need are the naysayers of hard work who are lazy and just expect the Government to give them what they be too lazy to seek. The Government knows nothing, NASA knows nothing and Ed Mitchell says so. That much is plainly obvious by the actions of the global governments. It is just a silly fantasy that the USA is somehow special and holds secrets that nobody else can possibly uncover. Book and conferences simply offer these people the opportunity to avoid real work and chase dreams funded by the general public.

It's obvious that people are capitalizing on the phenomena whether if they're skeptic or not. But there are people who are shaken by it and

want to live a normal life like the rest of us and they wish to remain discreet in interviews because of the repercussions it causes.

[Hawken]

Interesting idea! I'll see what I can find, a preliminary search indicates that Penn Jillettes Net worth is 175 million, and Dan Aykroyd down at 135 million.

That is a chuck of change for both. Both with different views but both walking to the bank with a big grin on their faces. hmm

[psyche101]

It's obvious that people are capitalizing on the phenomena whether if they're skeptic or not. But there are people who are shaken by it and

want to live a normal life like the rest of us and they wish to remain discreet in interviews because of the repercussions it causes.

I could see that being completely true, the ones I have seen I am 100% certain are natural phenomena, but to me that does not lessen the intrigue nor mystery.

I honestly believe that any genuine mystery which may well exist is completely destroyed by UFOlogists. They have his feverish ideal that everyone in the world is wrong and cannot see the incredible proof that they do of alien visitation. Like Thor Leader of the Earth Protectorant. They do not ask "what did it look like" they will start showing you pictures of alien spaceships they feel are visiting earth and get you to single out "what you saw".

Newspapers are the same, they need to sell headlines, and people like to read about aliens. It's a multi million dollar industry that impoverishes our culture at the same time. Whackos provide great fodder for these outlets, and then anyone who has seen something they cannot explain think "Ohh the poor person, I might have been subject to the very same!" and support the "ideal". Which is not the case. Such claims tend to be worlds apart from the genuine article. A claim stands on it's merits, and if we do get a visit from ET, I have little doubt that such a claim would be more than noticeable, and not some deep dark secret to be uncovered like UFOlogy pretends it is. And they only do so for the opportunity to shoehorn ET into any story they can to bolster numbers as another appeal to authority. UFOlogy is an embarrassing mess, I think we are lucky that people like Michio Kaku and Professor Hawking balance the field there. If not for the real people studying it, the field would be in the realm of Unicorns and Mermaids.

[Hawken]

I could see that being completely true, the ones I have seen I am 100% certain are natural phenomena, but to me that does not lessen the intrigue nor mystery.

I honestly believe that any genuine mystery which may well exist is completely destroyed by UFOlogists. They have his feverish ideal that everyone in the world is wrong and cannot see the incredible proof that they do of alien visitation. Like Thor Leader of the Earth Protectorant. They do not ask "what did it look like" they will start showing you pictures of alien spaceships they feel are visiting earth and get you to single out "what you saw".

Newspapers are the same, they need to sell headlines, and people like to read about aliens. It's a multi million dollar industry that impoverishes our culture at the same time. Whackos provide great fodder for these outlets, and then anyone who has seen something they cannot explain think "Ohh the poor person, I might have been subject to the very same!" and support the "ideal". Which is not the case. Such claims tend to be worlds apart from the genuine article. A claim stands on it's merits, and if we do get a visit from ET, I have little doubt that such a claim would be more than noticeable, and not some deep dark secret to be uncovered like UFOlogy pretends it is. And they only do so for the opportunity to shoehorn ET into any story they can to bolster numbers as another appeal to authority. UFOlogy is an embarrassing mess, I think we are lucky that people like Michio Kaku and Professor Hawking balance the field there. If not for the real people studying it, the field would be in the realm of Unicorns and Mermaids.

I don't know if this has ever been attempted by UFO investigators. But if I was one, I would interview claimed abductees that say they are abducted on a regular basis.

Anyway, without their knowledge of knowing about it, I would stakeout there homes from a fair distance and look for unusual activity. Power outages, interference of

electronics, a craft hovering over the house, figures moving about. If I didn't see any of this going on and the abductee claims abduction on a night of a stakeout,

I would be scratching my head on that.

[psyche101]

I don't know if this has ever been attempted by UFO investigators. But if I was one, I would interview claimed abductees that say they are abducted on a regular basis.

There are groups dedicated to abductees. You might enjoy this watch, it is an Aussie documentary of Mary Rodwell. Her son is a skeptic, but tags along with Mum on a countryside jaunt to speak to "abductees". I found it a very interesting watch. The son tries to understand Mum, but stands behind her no matter what. A terrific kid. She debats a prof at some point and loses badly too. It would make a good thread actually. I bet the show offers many discussion points.

Anyway, without their knowledge of knowing about it, I would stakeout there homes from a fair distance and look for unusual activity. Power outages, interference of

electronics, a craft hovering over the house, figures moving about. If I didn't see any of this going on and the abductee claims abduction on a night of a stakeout,

I would be scratching my head on that.

Many cases have been investigated, and witnesses do not seem to match up to the claims, or the witnesses have been put up to lying for nefarious purposes. Classic cases like Betty and Barney Hill offer massive discrepancies that deeply contradict a concept of interstellar advanced alien life.

Many abductees also claim a spiritual experience, which led one of the bigger names in UFOlogy (John E Mack) to completely believe abduction experiences were caused by a brain abnormality. He only gave up on his theory when he examined brains and could not find the physical specimen he sought.

Sleep paralysis and creepy uncles seem to be the very best explanation that I can see for abduction cases. The only one I have ever seen that I feel even warrants a second glance would be Pascagoula. And I have personal theories on that one too.

Edited March 18, 2014 by psyche101

[dr no]

Not theories. Real bits and pieces lifted from people's limbs.

Alien in origin.

Alien to the human body perhaps not alien to earth,no implant ever has had an extraterrestrial origin

[Hawken]

There are groups dedicated to abductees. You might enjoy this watch, it is an Aussie documentary of Mary Rodwell. Her son is a skeptic, but tags along with Mum on a countryside jaunt to speak to "abductees". I found it a very interesting watch. The son tries to understand Mum, but stands behind her no matter what. A terrific kid. She debats a prof at some point and loses badly too. It would make a good thread actually. I bet the show offers many discussion points.

Very interesting documentary P. It surprised me that the 1st guy failed the polygraph test but it was even a bigger surprise that the 2nd guy passed.

The 1st guy's story would seem more believable then the 2nd guy saying he had 2 blonds in bed with him seemly wanting to lay pipe.

The son seemed to soften his view on the phenomena a bit but still there's that hard evidence to confirm it. And I can understand that.

[psyche101]

Very interesting documentary P. It surprised me that the 1st guy failed the polygraph test but it was even a bigger surprise that the 2nd guy passed.

The 1st guy's story would seem more believable then the 2nd guy saying he had 2 blonds in bed with him seemly wanting to lay pipe.

I found it an interesting watch too, very honest I thought.

The second guy - that's the robust fellow with the dark hair? If we are speaking of the same one, that is totally him relaying a wet dream, which when you think about it, makes you throw up in your mouth a little bit. He is gross as that bloke. I'd say he has mountains of trouble getting laid, not abduction problems. I honestly thought it was brave of Mary to see him. He seems quite the classic abduction weirdo and I would not be alone with him if I was a female.

The son seemed to soften his view on the phenomena a bit but still there's that hard evidence to confirm it. And I can understand that.

I thought he was a real champion. Despite Mary's wackiness she can't be too bad a Mum or person to bring up a decent bloke like that. I do not envy him, it is a very strange situation as most of us who are put into similar circumstances via a religious upbringing or similar, do not have the amount of objectivity onside that an abstract case like this creates. His love for him Mum vs common sense. It's something I really did get out of that doco, the fact that people can be very well intentioned decent people and still follow and promote a very dubious and unsupported personal ideal through sheer ignorance laced with ego. I am sure Mary has a healthy ego, for her to even think she can debate a college professor on this subject indicates that to me strongly. We all deal with age in different ways, and whilst Mary is not exactly one foot in the grave, she is at an age where one sees things in life differently. In the old days, older people used to get God as they felt mortality tighten it's grip, these days with God being dethroned by science, people are turning to what they see a more rational answer to life, the universe, and everything. That leads to Alien life that lives on the planets we now accept to be fact.

Glad you liked it mate, I hope some others have a watch of it too, as far as UFO documentaries go, I thought this was one of the better ones. Not very flashy, no CGI, no big promises, just an honest look into a true believers life, and what that means to them.

Edited March 19, 2014 by psyche101

[Hawken]

I am sure Mary has a healthy ego, for her to even think she can debate a college professor on this subject indicates that to me strongly.

I do think the college professor could have been more professional on the debate with Mary then making jokes. But by him attacking her like that seem to

make Chris grow closer to his mum and accept her for what she is instead of tearing their relationship apart. It was a blessing in disguise.

[psyche101]

I do think the college professor could have been more professional on the debate with Mary then making jokes. But by him attacking her like that seem to make Chris grow closer to his mum and accept her for what she is instead of tearing their relationship apart. It was a blessing in disguise.

Yes, I would say you are totally correct there, it did seem to make him "feel" for his mother, however, when one takes fantasy and tries to argue it is fact, one is bound to meet a brick wall sooner or later, the real world is very unforgiving and offers little sympathy for deliberate ignorance. The skeptics here seem harsh at times, but the real world is like a thousand times worse. Peer review scrutinises every I and every T, the Flores man find is a powerful example of how critical science is of itself. In that case, proof had to jump many hurdles to be finally accepted as fact.

[wallarookiller]

RIP Dr. Leir. Hope your family is doing well.

[TrumanB]

I'm listening to his testifying in front of the Congress and he looks pretty serious to me. What do you think of him?  A fraud, a believer or a scientist who found evidence of the extraterrestrial origin?

[the13bats]

8 hours ago, TrumanB said:

I'm listening to his testifying in front of the Congress and he looks pretty serious to me. What do you think of him?  A fraud, a believer or a scientist who found evidence of the extraterrestrial origin?

I found him oddly likable, not that i agreed with his every theory,

his big thing implants, i could peck it out but here,

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4519

dont hate my source, i just happen to agree with it,

this is another case i really was hopeful but its fallen apart under actual scientific investigation,

do i believe leir was a fraud, not necessarily, if he really believed his theories he wasnt a fraud, just mistaken and wrong, i think he personally believed.

 

[stereologist]

10 hours ago, TrumanB said:

I'm listening to his testifying in front of the Congress and he looks pretty serious to me. What do you think of him?  A fraud, a believer or a scientist who found evidence of the extraterrestrial origin?

I don't believe he testify in front of congress. I am guessing you are looking at the disclosure project which faked a congressional hearing by having people talk to a group of ex-congressmen who were hired to fool people into thinking that the disclosure project was legitimate. They even rented the Press Club to pretend that the press was interested in what they were saying.

[TrumanB]

It looks that you're right:

 

[stereologist]

TrumanB, you have to be careful around Greer. He is an odd person. He runs something he calls the Disclosure Hearings, but if you go on one of his UFO hunts you have to sign a non-disclosure agreement. 

Weird right?

[TrumanB]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_M._Greer

He seems to be an interesting fella. I didn't know about that non-disclosure agreement. So, does anyone know what these hunts look like?

 

p.s. now looking at his picture...he reminds me of Bob Lazar.

Edited April 17, 2019 by TrumanB

[stereologist]

35 minutes ago, TrumanB said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_M._Greer

He seems to be an interesting fella. I didn't know about that non-disclosure agreement. So, does anyone know what these hunts look like?

 

p.s. now looking at his picture...he reminds me of Bob Lazar.

I believe he claims he can telepathically call in a UFO. So people go out there for an expensive trip to see whatever and if they see something or not it is unknown since they are not allowed to disclose.

[Minimalists]

On 3/16/2014 at 10:14 AM, Rolci said:

It's not only him that died recently. A host of UFO researchers have been (more than likely) murdered in the past few months as disclosure draws nearer. There was a show 2 weeks ago on this with Steve Bassett as guest on Coast to Coast AM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbOX5g1ieHU

11:25 - 35:18

And your basis for this ridiculous conspiracy theory?

[Minimalists]

7 minutes ago, stereologist said:

I believe he claims he can telepathically call in a UFO. So people go out there for an expensive trip to see whatever and if they see something or not it is unknown since they are not allowed to disclose.

Skinwalker ranch come to mind here Stereo?