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Measles Outbreak, over 200 confirmed cases


Thanato

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I'm only seeing a lot of fringe sites claiming it was peer reviewed study, but not actually seeing the study showing this.

What I did find was suggestions that the thiomerosal studies showed that children who got vaccines ended up doing better overall then those who didn't. This is probably an indication of a more loving, and resource using parent, IMHO. And has nothing to do with the actual thiomerosal.

If that is untrue, please post a link that points directly at what you are saying.

Plus like others have said, this preservative has stopped being used in shots for kids years and years ago.

There was also another study that they could be talking about, but it was about methyl mercury and pregnancy in a coastal indigenous people. It didn't say that mercury was good for the brain, but there was no statistically significant difference in neurological outcomes for children born to mothers who had high mercury levels if the mercury came from a high fish diet alone. I think the conclusion was it is possible that a diet rich in fish is so good for brain development that it can overcome the effects of mercury from the mother's system or protect it somehow, I am not sure. Now, they did not find this effect with mercury levels in the children themselves. I am not sure if this is what they were talking about or if my description is exactly right, but even still that article never said mercury was good for the brain and I want to say it was more about nutrition than molecular biology.

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One thing noone ever seems to understand is that the mutations of diseases into super strains occur (well more quickly and frequently) because of vaccinations. It's evolution sped up. Regular strains can't reproduce and spread through into a vaccinated host but when a mutation occurs and does defeat the vaccine it takes hold and spreads like wildfire because we are not prepared for it. If we didn't have a vaccinated public chances are we'd mostly be dealing with the same strains over and over. Not saying mutations aren't likely to happen here as well but it would lower the chances of it being such that we cant deal with it. We should learn better ways to cure and cope with diseases better and save vaccinations as our "ace in the hole" for when serious problems do occur or else we risk facing serious problems later.

No, measles has a very slow rate of mutagenesis. All the strains that we find in the wild now were classified in the 1950s they have changed very little. Since vaccines work in the exact same way as a pathogen our own immune system would actually be creating these superbugs and if that is the case what do you suggest? I think you are thinking of antibiotics.

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Wow, I litteraly cant find the studies main stream claimed happened. So they either lied about it out right. Or they are making sure the studies were scrubbed off the internet. Either way it brings me little comfort.

There is a free online course you can take on corsera that can help teach you good basic scientific research skills.

Edited by FurthurBB
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I said:

What's so horrible about measles? How about that it killed about 130,000 people around the world in 2010. How about that it killed about 630,000 people around the world in 1990? (source http://www.thelancet...1728-0/fulltext)

Are you seriously going to say that more than 130,000 people died in 2010 from vaccinations?

Stellar said:

Odd question, but I'm curious: do you get your flu shot yearly?

I said:

Yes. Do you mind me asking why you asked?

Stellar said:

Because you brought up the annual deaths caused by measles, but the flu is responsible for similar amounts of deaths

Sorry, Stellar, I don't mean to be obtuse, but I don't understand the point you're making.

I was challenging Preacherman76's claim that more people die from the vaccine than from the disease: I wanted to see if he was willing to claim that more than 130,000 people die annually from vaccines, given that's the number of people who are believed to have died from measles around the world in 2010.

As for flu shots, yes I get them every year. I've mentioned on another thread that I have Crohn's Disease, and the treatment for the disease suppresses my immune system. For that reason my doctors recommend I get the flu shot each year.

You say that flu is responsible for a similar number of deaths to measles - it seems it's actually responsible for 3-4 times as many deaths. The difference between measles and flu, though, is that the measles vaccine is more effective than the flu vaccines.

More generally, all my children are fully immunised. None have any problems people claim to associate with vaccines like autism. Instead they are a pretty normal bunch of exasperating young kids (read some of my 3YOS stories in the Jokes section of UM).

My wife discussed getting the Gardasil vaccine with her doctor, and they concluded it was of little benefit to her.

So we're not blind vaccinators. We discuss individual vaccines with our doctors and make decisions based on the evidence.

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No, measles has a very slow rate of mutagenesis.

I was just reading your posts and was going to make this very same comment. :tsu:

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Though I also wouldn't eat liquid chlorine but will eat salt.

Let's see.... Sodium Chloride... Sodium explodes in water, and Chlorine will eat holes into you. According to the vaccine haters' logic, table salt should be one of the most dangerous substances on the face of the Earth.

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My point is simply to bring things into perspective. The anti-vaxer campaign works on scaremongering, but I'm finding it incredibly difficult to believe that the pro-vaxer campaign does not, having seen some of the arguments and figures thrown around.

It seems that people respond quicker and more decisively to fear these days then to logic so that is what everyone uses.

At least one side is using numbers that can be verified, while the other side is using speculation and bad science.

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I don't think even Preacherman is very convinced by his own line of argument and he has admitted as much in another thread we took part in. It can be said with great certainty that the benefits of vaccines far outweigh the tiny level of associated risk.

Br Cornelius

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Facts and figures? In the 1900's 300-500 million people died from smallpox. The last NATURAL case of smallpox occurred in 1977. That is not scaremongering. That is absolute, undeniable fact. That is also a fact that you will not see the anti-vaccine crowd dispute, mainly because they wouldn't dare even bring that up.

It indeed isn't scare mongering, but then again, that's not one of the examples that I took objection to, is it? And scaremongering has nothing to do with posting inaccurate information, so much as it has to do with the context (or lack there of) of the information presented.

What I took objection to is the annual death toll of measles that was brought up. It is very similar to other arguments I've heard people trumpet for support of vaccinations, such as the "it could kill you!" line. What do these arguments have in common? They rely on a scary statement or scary numbers to convince people to take vaccinations, yet they both are taken out of perspective in order to do so --- and that's the scaremongering aspect of it.

Measles is responsible for 130k-650k deaths yearly (specific years were quoted, but I'm on my phone and can't see the exact post a I'm typing). Sounds like a scary fact huh? That's lots of deaths! But to put it in perspective, the flu kills 250k-500k people annually. The flu vaccine is far from being trumpeted as a "must have" vaccine, despite its similar death rate to measles. Clearly, the annual death rate of measles then isn't the whole picture, is it?

How about the "it could kill you" line? Well, I've free heard that thrown around. What else can kill you though? Everything! Essentially every disease in the world "can" kill you. Clearly, it being "able" to kill you is not the whole argument the , is it? It should be pointed out how "likely" it is to kill you, not simply that it can. That's where the scaremongering comes in to play again---to someone who doesn't know that basically every disease "can" kill, the "it can kill you" argument sounds quite scary... Scary enough to convince them to get a vaccine.

Now, I'm not against vaccinations, I am quite for vaccinations (for the more dangerous diseases), what I am against is people making uninformed choices.

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I said:

Stellar said:

I said:

Stellar said:

Sorry, Stellar, I don't mean to be obtuse, but I don't understand the point you're making.

I was challenging Preacherman76's claim that more people die from the vaccine than from the disease: I wanted to see if he was willing to claim that more than 130,000 people die annually from vaccines, given that's the number of people who are believed to have died from measles around the world in 2010.

As for flu shots, yes I get them every year. I've mentioned on another thread that I have Crohn's Disease, and the treatment for the disease suppresses my immune system. For that reason my doctors recommend I get the flu shot each year.

You say that flu is responsible for a similar number of deaths to measles - it seems it's actually responsible for 3-4 times as many deaths. The difference between measles and flu, though, is that the measles vaccine is more effective than the flu vaccines.

More generally, all my children are fully immunised. None have any problems people claim to associate with vaccines like autism. Instead they are a pretty normal bunch of exasperating young kids (read some of my 3YOS stories in the Jokes section of UM).

My wife discussed getting the Gardasil vaccine with her doctor, and they concluded it was of little benefit to her.

So we're not blind vaccinators. We discuss individual vaccines with our doctors and make decisions based on the evidence.

My apologies if I misunderstood your post. I thought you were argument for the measles vaccine because of all the people who died from it in those years

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The only line of argument which is particularly useful when considering the risks is, what is your personal chance of dying from measles compared to your personal chance of dying from the vaccine. Its about a 1000 times greater chance from the disease.

When we consider the other possible side effects, we still come out with measles been 100 of times more likely to cause adverse outcomes over the vaccine.

I think on a risk analysis basis those facts speak for themselves. Those who choose not to take the small risk from the vaccine because their children are unlikely to encounter measles are both deluded and selfish because it increases everyones risk of having adverse reactions from the disease.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Guest
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It is my understanding that the kids who got the disease had indeed been vaccinated against it, an impression that came from a professional medical site. So....

Edited by regeneratia
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The dynamics of vaccination programs requires almost universal takeup for them to prevent outbreaks.

No vaccine offers total proof against contracting the disease, so it is essential to eliminate it totally from a population to offer that population protection. Such programs have successfully eliminated smallpox and virtually eliminated polio. Measles was on the way out in all areas with universal vaccination programs - but the anti-vax campaigners have undermined the progress towards a measles free world.

Br Cornelius

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It is my understanding that the kids who got the disease had indeed been vaccinated against it, an impression that came from a professional medical site. So....

The outbreak originated in a faith based school, with very very low vaccination rates.

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The outbreak originated in a faith based school, with very very low vaccination rates.

Maybe I was thinking of another recent measles outbreak.

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My apologies if I misunderstood your post. I thought you were argument for the measles vaccine because of all the people who died from it in those years

No worries.

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