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Republicans block 'Paycheck Fairness Act'

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acidhead

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Br Cornelius

http://m.townhall.co...24357/page/full

Statistical Frauds

Apr. 15, 2014

The "war on women" political slogan is in fact a war against common sense.

It is a statistical fraud when Barack Obama and other politicians say that women earn only 77 percent of what men earn -- and that this is because of discrimination.

It would certainly be discrimination if women were doing the same work as men, for the same number of hours, with the same amount of training and experience, as well as other things being the same. But study after study, over the past several decades, has shown repeatedly that those things are not the same.

Continued...

All of the factors are accounted for in the formulation of the statistic, it is after comparing like for like that the residual disparity is revealed. This simple fact has been addressed already in this thread, so maybe you should read it first before commenting.

Br Cornelius

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Beany

http://m.townhall.co...24357/page/full

Statistical Frauds

Apr. 15, 2014

The "war on women" political slogan is in fact a war against common sense.

It is a statistical fraud when Barack Obama and other politicians say that women earn only 77 percent of what men earn -- and that this is because of discrimination.

It would certainly be discrimination if women were doing the same work as men, for the same number of hours, with the same amount of training and experience, as well as other things being the same. But study after study, over the past several decades, has shown repeatedly that those things are not the same.

Continued...

I was part of a team that did a comparable worth study for the county I live in, and what we found was that women do not always get paid for doing the same work: the same 40 hours a week, meeting the same job qualifications & work experience, the same physical qualifications, having equal skill levels. Sometimes they do, sure, but often that was not the case. There are a couple of studies, one done for Washington state, another done for the city of San Jose, the Hay study, that had the same results. As I said earlier, when I was a case worker for cash, foodstamp, and MediCal programs, I was paid less than the janitor who had less seniority. The qualifications for my job were much greater than that of a janitorial position, required education greater, responsibilities greater, as I was responsible for paying out thousands of dollars in benefits. And there was the safety factor: we had panic buttons installed in the interviewing rooms in case an applicant became physical violent, and had to take personal defense classes. So are these two job equal? No, mine had more responsibility, required more skills, but all of the case workers were paid less than the janitor.

For a year I donated my time to work on this project, studied the issues, interviewed people, reviewed job descriptions, identified bench mark positions. I'd love to see a study that reached a different conclusion, look at the numbers, the methodology, etc., if anyone can produce one.

Had to edit this to add that when I went to close the window to that article, there was a pop-up ad that said Uncle Sam wanted me to fight the war against amnesty for illegal immigrants, which tells me something about the bias of that article, author, and the web site/organization that hosted it.

Edited by Beany

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F3SS

So are these two job equal? No, mine had more responsibility, required more skills, but all of the case workers were paid less than the janitor.

So all the case workers... Not just you. Were all the case workers women? If not, what did the male case workers make? Not saying your job was cake but you're not using a job for job comparison. You're comparing two different job positions. Seems two different positions and two different wages. Janitors are often paid surprisingly better than expected. Their jobs can be dirty, demeaning and hazardous to their health and many times are the all around skilled handy man maintenance guy.

Food for thought: Could you do everything the janitor might do? If not, how can you say your job required more skill? It's not so cut and dry. You both have different skill sets for different wages. You say your job required more education. Academic education is often overrated . Perhaps the janitor would call you under skilled and under educated if you attempted his job.

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Beany

All of the factors are accounted for in the formulation of the statistic, it is after comparing like for like that the residual disparity is revealed. This simple fact has been addressed already in this thread, so maybe you should read it first before commenting.

Br Cornelius

Didn't see any statistics, didn't see any references to the studies referred to in the article, didn't see any evidence to back up the claims. There does exist a methodology of determining the value of a job, but I didn't see any reference to it here. Women don't do the same jobs as men, that doesn't mean that the value of their work is any less, or that, in fact, the standard should be men's work. That's the whole point of gender bias, women are paid less because they are not performing the same work as men. Their jobs may require more experience, education and training, their contributions could have the same worth and value as that of men, but because they are working in female-dominated jobs, they are paid less.

You can compare relevant characteristics, because when a comparable worth study is done, all of the relevant statistics, job descriptions, etc. for an entire city, county, or state employees are looked at. And of course careful judgment is applied, who would want to spend a year or two doing a study but so sloppily that the results are in question? And one would never compare, say, attorneys in the private sector with attorney working for government agencies; what would be reviewed is whether male & female attorneys working for the same agency have equitable pay. The claim about pay differences shrinking when multiple factors are looked at? Any evidence for that presented? Nope. This is another one of those supposed serious journalism pieces that present no evidence, no statistics, no studies, not even any quotes from the reports referred to, who wrote the reports, how old the reports are. Bah, humbug.

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Beany

So all the case workers... Not just you. Were all the case workers women? If not, what did the male case workers make? Not saying your job was cake but you're not using a job for job comparison. You're comparing two different job positions. Seems two different positions and two different wages. Janitors are often paid surprisingly better than expected. Their jobs can be dirty, demeaning and hazardous to their health and many times are the all around skilled handy man maintenance guy.

Food for thought: Could you do everything the janitor might do? If not, how can you say your job required more skill? It's not so cut and dry. You both have different skill sets for different wages. You say your job required more education. Academic education is often overrated . Perhaps the janitor would call you under skilled and under educated if you attempted his job.

OK, here we go again. Before analyzing any jobs, we spent about 3 months reviewing a long list of job descriptions and assigned a point value to each requirement, i.e. physical demands, education, required experience, skills, work schedule, job hazards, etc. Then we looked at all the benchmark positions, my job was one, the janitor position the other. We assigned points to each skill, experience, etc. for each job description. So maybe the janitor got more points because of the physical demands, but I got more points than him because of the education requirements. He got points for working with chemicals, I got points for working with potentially violent applicants. At the end of the day, my job had a higher point value, but he was paid more. Not initially, but after two years on the job the janitors were earning more money. Why? Because my job had a 1 year probationary period during which no salary raise was possible. The janitor had a six month probationary period, and got a raise when he passed probation, and then another raise after being employed a year. A year after that, he gets another raise, and continues to get raises until he's at the top of his pay scale. I, on the other hand, got a raise after passing the one year probation and moved from being a case worker I to a case worker II. However, the janitor's pay goes up every year because he's promoted from a Janitor I to a Janitor II, to a Janitor III, to a Janitor IV, to Janitor V...But the case worker position didn't even have anything beyond a Case Worker III, and to get that position one had to pass a written test & have an oral interview.

So here's what it looked like: 80% of the janitors were in Janitor VI positions, while 90% of case workers were at Case Worker II positions. The janitors weren't required to test to move up, and their job range was much broader than mine. That's the gender bias working. There was no reason for the janitor position to have a better career path than case worker, nor any reason why the janitors were paid more, but that was the case. My job required a working knowledge of country, state & federal regulations, I was responsible for distributing millions of dollars annually to applicants, required to make child abuse & family needs assessments, perform complicated calculations to determine correct benefit amounts, keep accurate and evidentiary case records, conduct extensive interviews, insure some 25 pages of detailed applications were completed correctly, etc., needed two years of college level education. Are you seriously saying that my job duties were of lesser value than a janitor, who needed no experience, nor even a high school education, because he pushed around a floor polisher?

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F3SS

Are you seriously saying that my job duties were of lesser value than a janitor, who needed no experience, nor even a high school education, because he pushed around a floor polisher?

Then why didn't you take up a janitors position then? Let me guess, they couldn't pay you enough to do what they do. Ask yourself that question next time someone vomits in your office or defacates on the walls of the bathroom. Seriously, how much money would you want to clean that up by hand? Those things do happen when you work in a public arena. Furnace just kicked and it's 12 degrees out today. The janitor is starting to sound a bit valuable now.

A written test and oral interview? Oh no! Are you saying a case worker can never earn more than the janitor? Also, what was the top pay scale for the janitor and how long would it take to achieve?

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Beany

Then why didn't you take up a janitors position then? Let me guess, they couldn't pay you enough to do what they do. Ask yourself that question next time someone vomits in your office or defacates on the walls of the bathroom. Seriously, how much money would you want to clean that up by hand? Those things do happen when you work in a public arena. Furnace just kicked and it's 12 degrees out today. The janitor is starting to sound a bit valuable now.

A written test and oral interview? Oh no! Are you saying a case worker can never earn more than the janitor? Also, what was the top pay scale for the janitor and how long would it take to achieve?

Didn't know a janitor made more until we did the study. And as a mom I pretty did all of the nasty clean up without any pay, as well as emergency triage. I said nothing that would indicate that I was a snob about someone being a janitor, did I? You implied that, not me. It would take a janitor 6 years to reach the top step of Janitor VI, and once there would go through 5 or 6 step increases within Janitor VI position; no more than 80% of the case workers ever go beyond Case Worker II, and there were no Case Worker IV, V, or VI positions, so once you're at the top of the step increase ladder, that's it. I don't think anyone participating in the study expected to see this kind of bias, and it appeared throughout the county system. Greenskeepers I through VII, automatically promoted annually, Weights & Measures Inspectors I through VIII, promoted annually, etc. with the overwhelming majority at the top position, with no requirement to pass a test or take an oral interview. Of course, if the janitor's position is so important, perhaps they SHOULD be required to test to make sure they know the proper use of chemicals, hazmat and contamination procedures, proper operation of expensive equipment and OSHA regulations.

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F3SS

Didn't know a janitor made more until we did the study. And as a mom I pretty did all of the nasty clean up without any pay, as well as emergency triage. I said nothing that would indicate that I was a snob about someone being a janitor, did I?

Of course, if the janitor's position is so important, perhaps they SHOULD be required to test to make sure they know the proper use of chemicals, hazmat and contamination procedures, proper operation of expensive equipment and OSHA regulations.

Can't say I didn't perceive it that way a little at least.

Again though, you are demeaning the value of custodial work. My first job was bagging groceries in the mid 90's and I had to take a test and watch videos about hazardous chemicals and OSHA regulations. It seems you are referring to a government job in which the janitor worked in the same facility for the government. I have a hard time believing the janitor wasn't required to at least watch training videos on these matters. If not, you're not painting a bright picture of government competency, in training or payroll. That said, I'm sure your job wasn't easy.

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aztek

wow, sorry but if you are ****hurt over janitors pay, there has to be something wrong you doing in your life, and republicans or equality act have nothing to do with it

do you know how much rodeo riders get??? you would not believe how little, and ther job is as dangerous as it gets, just Google their regular injuries, worst than boxing football hockey combined. yet you wont see them complain that a female case worker gets paid more, oh because they are man, they can't. they have no right, right????

oh, btw, do you know how much crime scene clean up crew gets??? i wont tell you, but some jobs that require master degree do not pay as much.

Edited by aztek
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Gummug

Lilly Ledbetter. First bill that Obama signed. Wiki link, here.

Well, it was supported by the ACLU, so it had to be bad. Seriously though, it looks like there was some valid criticism against it:

"While the law sought to address the rights of women in the workplace, the law was later criticised as being "[nothing] more than a trial-lawyer payout,[22] as the legislation was thought to provide greater assist to trial lawyers collecting their fees than promote equal pay in the workplace.[23]

The law has been compared to Wisconsin's Equal Pay Enforcement Act which was repealed by Governor Scott Walker.[24] The Wisconsin law was criticised for making sex discrimination lawsuits financially attractive to female employees.[25]["

(quote from the link)

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aztek

actually i just noticed up on top of the page.

Do not post material, links, articles or views designed to promote an agenda in favour or against any party, group or individual.

this thread sure looks like it fits this description perfectly.

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Br Cornelius

So acting to promote equality is acting for a group. Interesting logic.

Br Cornelius

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aztek

this thread is not much about equality, but "how those man dare make more than females" absolutely ignoring reality, and already existing legestlation.

so yea it seems to me that this is more anti male thread than anything else

Edited by aztek
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Br Cornelius

this thread is not much about equality, but "how those man dare make more than females" absolutely ignoring reality, and already existing legestlation.

so yea it seems to me that this is more anti male thread than anything else

That sheds an interesting light on you rather than anything else.

Br Cornelius

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aztek

lmao, do not get blinded by it, btw ever heard "do not attack the poster attack the post"?? seem to be kind of a rule here.

Edited by aztek

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Br Cornelius

There is consistent evidence that there is a residual pay difference when exactly like for like jobs are compared. This has been studied to death and it always comes to the same conclusion. Again I could produce such evidence if I thought you were interested in reading evidence.

Br Cornelius

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aztek

There is consistent evidence that there is a residual pay difference when exactly like for like jobs are compared. This has been studied to death and it always comes to the same conclusion. Again I could produce such evidence if I thought you were interested in reading evidence.

Br Cornelius

if that was true it would be illegal would it not? evidence are not one sided stories, please provide actual evidence like payroll table that shows females get less pay for the same job. again evidence, not hersay

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Br Cornelius

if that was true it would be illegal would it not? evidence are not one sided stories, please provide actual evidence like payroll table that shows females get less pay for the same job. again evidence, not hersay

Beany has actually taken part in just such research and she has supplied the conclusions here in this thread.

Br Cornelius

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aztek

but i still did not see evidence, no payroll table. that the research was based upon, have you??? was it posted and i missed it? or it was not posted?

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Br Cornelius

here i'm looking at McDonald pay roll table, i see no difference of pay between males and females, pay rates are equal,

http://www.glassdoor...laries-E432.htm

The particular doesn't prove the general.

Br Cornelius

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aztek

1 so far i'm the only one that presented a payroll table

2 The particular doesn't prove the general works in both cases , not just to your advantage, right?

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Br Cornelius

1 so far i'm the only one that presented a payroll table

2 The particular doesn't prove the general works in both cases , not just to your advantage, right?

that is why you study multiple payroles.

http://www.gao.gov/a.../280/279567.pdf

A study by the American Association of University Women (AAUW), published in April of this year, indicates that wage inequities start early and worsen over time. "One year out of college, women working full time earn only 80% as much as their male colleagues earn," wrote the report's authors, Judy Goldberg Dey and Catherine Hill. "Ten years after graduation, women fall farther behind, earning only 69 percent as much as men earn."

In reaching its conclusions, the AAUW analyzed data from longitudinal studies conducted by the U.S. Department of Education. Researchers controlled for a variety of factors—such as occupation, college major, work hours, and the like—that might affect earnings. Still, females earned less. Said the AAUW, "Ten years after graduation, the portion of the gender pay gap that remains unexplained increases from 5% [a year after graduation] to 12%."

http://www.amanet.org/training/articles/Bridging-the-Gender-Pay-Gap.aspx

You are always going to lose every argument if you haven't got the evidence to support your own personal beliefs.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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aztek

lmao, have you read the study??? your evidence do not support your belief either, the study di not really determined much, read up.

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