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Republicans block 'Paycheck Fairness Act'

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Frank Merton

This is an example of making laws to correct perceived injustices, which will lead to litigation and more money for lawyers. America is killing itself in laws and lawyers and litigation.

Of course I suppose it is a natural process; something wrong happens and the politicians automatically jump to pass a law. Otherwise why are they there?

By the way, how do they propose going about proving in a court of law that the man and the woman were doing the same work with the same quality? Of course it will be decided by a jury, which means whichever side has a lawyer best accomplished at throwing sand will prevail.

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Yamato

Neither I nor my male counterpart negotiated any pay. We were simply told what the going rate for the position was.

Then you deserve to be negotiating for your pay right now, do you not? You've sold yourself to me but I can't pay you.

If the companies can't bring themselves to pay equally qualified men and women the same...you betcha I want the government to step in and do something about it!

It's not as valuable for an employer to hire an employee who's going to take months off of work perhaps multiple times before her biological clock runs out. If male employees are lower cost, employers can afford to pay them more. Young males require far less health care for instance, and we all know how expensive that is. Actuarial science must rule the day here unless we trust a gang of unelected bureaucrats to design the system for us; more system from the system.

Companies are never going to step up and do anything that might cause them to have to dip into their bonus money. Absolutely...The government should play a part so employers have to curtail their greedy practices. Instead of being able to say "hey, it may not be right. ..but it's not illegal! Heeheehee!"

Corporations are hungry for profit and governments are hungry for power and now profit too. You feed one beast to starve the other when they're both as one together. Greed isn't limited to companies. Everyone has the potential for greed. Large companies have larger potential in dollar terms, but government coddles large companies the most. Don't run to that as the steward of your best interests.

Part of what government should always be responsible that all laws are fair and upheld and as times change, by golly, us ladies are putting our 2 cents in to the mix. It's time!

You should do that yourself as you should do many other things for yourself without being coddled by government. Why did you not negotiate for your salary? If everything you say is true, why aren't you doing that?

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lisaloveslilia

Then you deserve to be negotiating for your pay right now, do you not? You've sold yourself to me but I can't pay you.

It's not as valuable for an employer to hire an employee who's going to take months off of work perhaps multiple times before her biological clock runs out. If male employees are lower cost, employers can afford to pay them more. Young males require far less health care for instance, and we all know how expensive that is. Actuarial science must rule the day here unless we trust a gang of unelected bureaucrats to design the system for us; more system from the system.

Corporations are hungry for profit and governments are hungry for power and now profit too. You feed one beast to starve the other when they're both as one together. Greed isn't limited to companies. Everyone has the potential for greed. Large companies have larger potential in dollar terms, but government coddles large companies the most. Don't run to that as the steward of your best interests.

You should do that yourself as you should do many other things for yourself without being coddled by government. Why did you not negotiate for your salary? If everything you say is true, why aren't you doing that?

1st...if I had legislation on my side...negotiating my wages might get me somewhere. As it stands right now...i could get walked out the door for even suggesting it. "At-will employment".

2nd...I am no longer able to have children so that part of the argument is moot! And offensively ridiculous. Considering the same folks in congress that want to block the fairness act, are the ones calling to end abortion and getting their panties in a bunch about birth control. That pretty much backs us ladies into a corner everywhere we turn. If employers take issue with the fact that women are the ones whho get pregnant and suck the company dry on account of it, they should stop hiring women. Period. But, they're not allowed to do that. So they reluctantly hire us but give us a lower wage and chock it up to our poor negotiation skills. Thats not legit. And greed, in any way shape or form shouldn't be shrugged off as "meh, thats just the way its alwayss been". As society changes, so should our policies. And most of society is sick of being affected by big corporations and their relentless greedy tactics that harm us regular folk.

Edited by lisaloveslilia
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Frank Merton

The ultimate end of such thinking can only be a government imposed list of jobs and how much each is to be paid, not unlike the Medicaid schedule the US now has for medical treatments.

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Yamato

1st...if I had legislation on my side...negotiating my wages might get me somewhere. As it stands right now...i could get walked out the door for even suggesting it. "At-will employment".

2nd...I am no longer able to have children so that part of the argument is moot! And offensively ridiculous. Considering the same folks in congress that want to block the fairness act, are the ones calling to end abortion and getting their panties in a bunch about birth control. That pretty much backs us ladies into a corner everywhere we turn. If employers take issue with the fact that women are the ones whho get pregnant and suck the company dry on account of it, they should stop hiring women. Period. But, they're not allowed to do that. So they reluctantly hire us but give us a lower wage and chock it up to our poor negotiation skills. Thats not legit. And greed, in any way shape or form shouldn't be shrugged off as "meh, thats just the way its alwayss been". As society changes, so should our policies. And most of society is sick of being affected by big corporations and their relentless greedy tactics that harm us regular folk.

There are at-will laws here too, but there are also laws against discrimination.

There's a very small pool of candidates willing to work the hours you do. I think you're safe to ask. Read some articles on how to ask for a raise and apply them to your boss and your situation. You can improve your relationship with your boss at the same time you ask for the raise. Multitasking. ;)

Maybe your coworker had more education, more experience, or otherwise better credentials. There are all kinds of good reasons pay differs. Bureaucrats don't have perfect knowledge. Stop trusting them.

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lisaloveslilia

Maybe your coworker had more education, more experience, or otherwise better credentials. There are all kinds of good reasons pay differs. Bureaucrats don't have perfect knowledge. Stop trusting them.

As I stated in my 1st post to this topic...I am more qualified and experienced than him in every way. As for trusting bureacrats...on this issue I don't need to trust anything but my immediate reality. And I also shouldn't have to read a bunch of articles to learn how to negotiate. C'mon now! My boss and I get along famously. Its the corporate office that decided my pay. And its the corporate guys that have the law (or lack thereof) on their side. I work for a multi-billion dollar company. So, again, its not the bureacrats feeeding me ideas...its my 15 years personal experience in this industry that I rely on when forming my opinions.

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Frank Merton

I think you have an attitude problem, and they pick up on it and would just as rather you left, so you don't get raises. Just talking into my hat here.

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Gromdor

The ultimate end of such thinking can only be a government imposed list of jobs and how much each is to be paid, not unlike the Medicaid schedule the US now has for medical treatments.

See that is the funny thing. The US already has mega-corporations with lists of jobs with a set pay range. They have human resource departments that employees deal with instead of bosses when it comes to pay. But for some reason (perhaps what Yamato listed) women are on the lower end of pay on those pay ranges. And because every job is categorized, it is fairly easy to look up what your job is online and find the average pay. So a problem does exist. To fix that some complain to their boss, some to their lawyers, and as we see some to their government representative.

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Leonardo

It's very telling that many of the male posters here are trying to suggest lisaloveslilia's issue with pay disparity is her fault - rather than the result of misogyny still being present in the workplace. And their willingness to use this argument, despite it's lack of credibility, simply reinforces the conclusion that misogyny is still the prevailing factor.

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Frank Merton

Oh and Heaven help a company payroll department that allows its managers discretion or that on average pays a little more than the average.

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Frank Merton

It's very telling that many of the male posters here are trying to suggest lisaloveslilia's issue with pay disparity is her fault - rather than the result of misogyny still being present in the workplace. And their willingness to use this argument, despite it's lack of credibility, simply reinforces the conclusion that misogyny is still the prevailing factor.

That is just not true and I think you got your head up your ass on this. Read her tone. Read between the lines. No one doubts that women on the whole are paid less for the same work. What I object to is the use of legislation to fix it.
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Leonardo

That is just not true and I think you got your head up your ass on this. Read her tone. Read between the lines. No one doubts that women on the whole are paid less for the same work. What I object to is the use of legislation to fix it.

Would that be because legislation wasn't required to give women the vote, or to prevent discrimination by skin colour, or to prevent discrimination by sexual orientation?

Would that be because all the equalities we have adopted in our societies have been done so without legislation being necessary for people to abide by?

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Frank Merton

What I didn't like is the playing of the sexist card. Because you disagree with a specific proposal designed but that probably won't help women does not make one a misogynist.

The fact is the US is becoming progressively less and less free, because of this sort of thinking. I don't know if that is good or bad; the whole world is going that way.

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Leonardo

What I didn't like is the playing of the sexist card. Because you disagree with a specific proposal designed but that probably won't help women does not make one a misogynist.

The fact is the US is becoming progressively less and less free, because of this sort of thinking. I don't know if that is good or bad; the whole world is going that way.

Is freedom then defined by people being free to discriminate against whomever they choose, in whatever manner they choose to do so?

Who is that freedom for, the one discriminating, or the one being discriminated against?

History shows us that, unless responsible people create legislation to punish discrimination, then people will continue to discriminate. That legislation does not necessarily mean an end to discrimination, but it does provide protection for the discriminated by leveeing a punishment against the discriminator.

Pay inequality is one form of discrimination.

Edited by Leonardo
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lisaloveslilia

I think you have an attitude problem, and they pick up on it and would just as rather you left, so you don't get raises. Just talking into my hat here.

Who's that with an attitude problem exactly?

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lisaloveslilia

That is just not true and I think you got your head up your ass on this. Read her tone. Read between the lines. No one doubts that women on the whole are paid less for the same work. What I object to is the use of legislation to fix it.

I'm the chick with a legitimate counter argument here! And my tone is wrong? Oh dear baby Yeshua! Ahhhhh! Sigh! And people like you n him n him are the reason I have a tone at all!

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lisaloveslilia

The fact is the US is becoming progressively less and less free, because of this sort of thinking. I don't know if that is good or bad; the whole world is going that way.

So by wanting and voicing such concerns...I am making myself and other women like me LESS FREE? Guess I should just shut up and sit down somewhere so that the American public can be MORE free?

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Render

I think you have an attitude problem, and they pick up on it and would just as rather you left, so you don't get raises. Just talking into my hat here.

Who's that with an attitude problem exactly?

haha, next he'll be telling everyone you're just suffering from "hysteria"...

c'mon Frank ..

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lisaloveslilia

Is freedom then defined by people being free to discriminate against whomever they choose, in whatever manner they choose to do so?

Who is that freedom for, the one discriminating, or the one being discriminated against?

History shows us that, unless responsible people create legislation to punish discrimination, then people will continue to discriminate. That legislation does not necessarily mean an end to discrimination, but it does provide protection for the discriminated by leveeing a punishment against the discriminator.

Pay inequality is one form of discrimination.

Thank you, sir! I couldn't have said it better myself...that's EXACTLY where its all at. Can't flat out END the discrimination but we can And SHOULD take steps...no, make that leaps and bounds...to steer clear of the discrimination. Set US up, fellas! Give us the rope! We'll either hang ourselves or come swinging down chanting "na na na booboo!" Why all the drama? why all the argument? This is 2014! Stop it already. It just never really holds up well in an argument anymore.

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aztek

well, we only hear one side of the story the loudest. but having owned buissness and having hired\fired people, i know 90% of such stories (i work harder than anyone else, but i still was fired....blah blah), do not reflect reality.

fact is , if your boss values, and you are such a good worker as you say you are, you can come in his office, and tell him, i want more money or i'll leave, if you as good as you say, he'll bump your rate. if not than tell him i'll take you to court for discrimination, since you have proof the guy that works with you is not as qualified as you, and you have seniority, you should have no problem winning case.

that is if everything is as you say it is. not just your side of the story.

you are a protected class, you want equality, you wont mind doing away with all your priveleges you get in many other aspects of life, will you???

Edited by aztek

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Beany

well, we only hear one side of the story the loudest. but having owned buissness and having hired\fired people, i know 90% of such stories (i work harder than anyone else, but i still was fired....blah blah), do not reflect reality.

fact is , if your boss values, and you are such a good worker as you say you are, you can come in his office, and tell him, i want more money or i'll leave, if you as good as you say, he'll bump your rate. if not than tell him i'll take you to court for discrimination, since you have proof the guy that works with you is not as qualified as you, and you have seniority, you should have no problem winning case.

that is if everything is as you say it is. not just your side of the story.

you are a protected class, you want equality, you wont mind doing away with all your priveleges you get in many other aspects of life, will you???

Are you suggesting that your personal experience is true of all employers? That there is no variation or differences because of the size of the business, nature of the business, history, etc.? And you're denying inequitable pay conditions exist, despite evidence to the contrary? I don't think event he Republicans are denying it exists, the issue is whether/how to address it.

We do not want to lose our jobs and sue our employers, that might seem to you to be a victory, but it would by pyric, at best. Why does the idea of paying women an equitable wage bother you so much?

Edited by Beany
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Beany

This is an example of making laws to correct perceived injustices, which will lead to litigation and more money for lawyers. America is killing itself in laws and lawyers and litigation.

Of course I suppose it is a natural process; something wrong happens and the politicians automatically jump to pass a law. Otherwise why are they there?

By the way, how do they propose going about proving in a court of law that the man and the woman were doing the same work with the same quality? Of course it will be decided by a jury, which means whichever side has a lawyer best accomplished at throwing sand will prevail.

There's a very systematic way of looking at wages within any shop, look at the Hay study for the city of San Jose. It's not just a perceived injustice, it IS an injustice.

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lisaloveslilia

wow

Edited by lisaloveslilia

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aztek

Are you suggesting that your personal experience is true of all employers? That there is no variation or differences because of the size of the business, nature of the business, history, etc.? And you're denying inequitable pay conditions exist, despite evidence to the contrary?

. Why does the idea of paying women an equitable wage bother you so much?

not all, but many , for sure. buttom line is, every employer wants to keep valuable emploees. what evidence to the contrary????? a one or few one sided stories??? i wonder what their employers might say about thoses cases. i deny it because it does not exsist. how about when men get unequal pay, why does that happen?? does every woman get paid less because they are women?? no, so may be your gender only a reason in your head, and real reason has nothing to do with it at all.

you want legestlation?? it is there, discrimination is illegal, by any factor. is that not enough?? females are included in that law.

Edited by aztek

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lisaloveslilia

And yet..he was the only one I

well, we only hear one side of the story the loudest. but having owned buissness and having hired\fired people, i know 90% of such stories (i work harder than anyone else, but i still was fired....blah blah), do not reflect reality.

fact is , if your boss values, and you are such a good worker as you say you are, you can come in his office, and tell him, i want more money or i'll leave, if you as good as you say, he'll bump your rate. if not than tell him i'll take you to court for discrimination, since you have proof the guy that works with you is not as qualified as you, and you have seniority, you should have no problem winning case.

that is if everything is as you say it is. not just your side of the story.

you are a protected class, you want equality, you wont mind doing away with all your priveleges you get in many other aspects of life, will you??

I'm a protected class? I want equality? Not just my side of the story?

I worked my knuckles to the bone! I'm not privileged or "entitled". I deserve to be here! My priveleges? Do share!

What exactly ARE my priveleges...making a dollar an hour less than the guy i'm training?

Edited by lisaloveslilia

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