Russia plans to get a foothold in the Moon

[smokeycat]

That's external debt. That's list just shows external liabilities (money that country owes other countries). It doesn't include each countries assets (money that is owed to that country).

You need to show both to have a true picture ie Net International Investment Position:-

http://en.wikipedia....stment_position

It's a couple of years old now but the wikipedia link says:-

US NIIP is -$2,473.6 billion (-16.9% GDP)

UK NIIP is -$182 billion (-9.1% GDP)

Sorry, missed out the minus sign

[Capt Amerika]

Glad to see someone is still interested in finding a way to preserve humanity by reaching out to the stars.

Even if it is just the moon at least its a start.

America seems to have pretty much knuckled under and decided that those funds are better spent on foreign aid, welfare programs and anything that keeps the votes rolling in for the political parties.

Better to just stay on this rock and keep populating and let our species die along with it.

[DONTEATUS]

Well we shall see ITs all up to us to Grow up !

Love the Video Clip Occams Razor !

Edited April 14, 2014 by DONTEATUS

[+OverSword]

Well considering they have yet to even put a man on the moon and return him safely I think this announcement premature.

Edited April 14, 2014 by OverSword

[stevemagegod]

They also have the added bonus that their space programme is not kicked about like a football by presidents and congress every 4 or 8 years.

I remember before Bush left office that he wanted to build a Moon Base. I believe almost a month into Obama's first term in office he cancelled the friggin program. I was really disappointed as i wanted to see us (at least an attempt) put a man on the moon in my lifetime. Should be walk in the park with all of this modern technology compared to the first time.

[Grandpa Greenman]

I don't care who builds the first moon base as long as somebody builds it. It is not a race to see who gets it first, that is just politics. It is about the destiny of mankind to move out into the solar system. It is the new age of discovery.

[Whisperer]

My bet is on the Indians....

[ancient astronaut]

This will be about future Helium 3 mining:

http://www.rocketcit...on-for-helium-3

People will need Helium 3 for super efficient clean power production in the not too distant future. The Chinese have been talking about a Moon base:

http://www.universet...ission-success/

And now the Russians are interested in the same thing:

http://www.theregist...nent_moon_base/

If the West doesn't wake up soon we'll be buying all our power from you know who...

"Ownership" of the Moon will probably play out a bit like this:

[media=]

[/media]

Problem with Helium 3 is the oil companies lack of willingness to share any, and I mean any piece of the proverbial pie. They (BIG OIL) will pay to have this squashed until it serves their interest(s) not ours.

[kobolds]

Oh here we go again....another moon space race.

Not space race. It is more like bull**** race. Both US and russia, currently don't have such amount of cash to spare

[Waspie_Dwarf]

I remember before Bush left office that he wanted to build a Moon Base. I believe almost a month into Obama's first term in office he cancelled the friggin program. I was really disappointed as i wanted to see us (at least an attempt) put a man on the moon in my lifetime. Should be walk in the park with all of this modern technology compared to the first time.

The problem with that programme, Constellation, is that it was big on dreams and small on funding.

Bush cancelled the shuttle to partly fund it, but left it so that it would fall to future administrations to find the short falls. He played a very clever political game, if Constellation succeed then he would be the JFK type visionary that started it, if it failed then someone else would take the blame... and that is exactly what has happened. Unlike JFK, Bush did not get the backing of Congress and the budget to fund these ideas (nor did he really try). Obama is being blamed for the lack of US ability to get astronauts into space when it was Bush that cancelled the shuttle.

Constellation was already over budget and running late when Obama took power. Even under Bush's plan the Altair Moon lander would not have been flown until 2018 or 2019 (remember this was back in 2005) and would not have been funded until after the Orion/Ares-1 had flown.

As Bush's plan stood the US would have returned to space using the Orion capsule and the Ares-1 rocket. Then Earth orbital operations would have been handed over to private companies. Obama cancelled the Ares-1 and moved forward the plan to hand Earth orbital operations to the private sector, reversing priorities.

The Ares-V heavy lift vehicle was cancelled, although effectively resurrected as the Space Launch System (SLS) rocket currently under development.

What the US will end up with is most of what Bush wanted EXCEPT for the Moon lander.

The problem now is that, apart from a mission to an asteroid, the Orion/SLS has no clear target. There is vague mention of Mars, but that has not yet been funded. Obama seems to have no clear idea of the USA's future road in space, it certainly does not seem to be high on his "to do" list.

Given the financial limitations on NASA, I don't think that NASA is going to end up too far short of where it would have been under the Bush plan.

With the tools for deep space exploration in place or under construction it will be for future administrations to decide whether to return to the Moon or press on to Mars.

I will stress at this point that I am viewing these things as an outsider. I am trying to look at it purely from my interest in space exploration and not from an overtly political stand point. I am neither Democrat nor Republican, these are not my political parties, not my presidents and not my problem. I do realise that American politics is very tribal but it would be nice if we could leave the Dem v Rep mud slinging out of this thread and focus on the spaceflight aspect.

[Waspie_Dwarf]

My bet is on the Indians....

Because their manned space programme is doing so well and their advanced rockets are so reliable?

Except they don't yet have a manned space programme and their most advanced rocket, the GSLV, has only succeed 3 times in 8 launches.

[Waspie_Dwarf]

Russia might have funds but they lack manpower ( young people )... simple but important point.

If they lack the manpower how is it that 2 manned vehicles and 2 cargo vehicles currently docked to the ISS are all Russian. That the best rocket engine in use on American launchers, the RD-180, used on the Atlas-V, is made in Russia.

You speak as if the Russian have no space programme, nothing could be further from the truth. They already have the facilities and the man power, it is just a matter of whether the government fund it or not.

[Waspie_Dwarf]

Well considering they have yet to even put a man on the moon and return him safely I think this announcement premature.

Neither had the USA when Kennedy commuted them to a Noon landing. In fact at the time the USA had not put a man in orbit and had only 15 minutes experience of manned spaceflight.

If you are going to make an announcement that you are going to do something it kind of goes with the territory that you make it before you've done it.

[Waspie_Dwarf]

This will be about future Helium 3 mining:

No, it really won't be.

³He gets mentioned in every single thread about lunar exploration, but it is a massive red herring. At the moment it has limited commercial uses. Certain types of fusion reactors could use ³He, but as commercial fusion reactors are at least 50 years away, and it may not even be the type that use ³He that are successful, then it really would be premature to start spending billions on mining it on the Moon. Comemercial ventures tend to like to know that they have a good chance of a profit... lunar ³He does not offer that chance and won't do for decades, if ever.

[Occams Razor]

Problem with Helium 3 is the oil companies lack of willingness to share any, and I mean any piece of the proverbial pie. They (BIG OIL) will pay to have this squashed until it serves their interest(s) not ours.

It's a popular theory among conspiracy theorists... however, the development of electric cars is proceeding, you can buy all-electric and hybrid cars today, they haven't been suppressed. They are talking about making something between a super-capacitor and battery out of graphene for powering an electric car. This could apparently be fully charged in less time it takes than to fill a car with petrol.

Development of fusion power is likely to take 30-40 years... we will be coming to the end of our oil supply by then anyway, so the time-frame for requiring helium 3 is probably spot on.

[Occams Razor]

No, it really won't be.

I think you're wrong... a lunar base will be extremely expensive to construct and maintain on a permanent basis, there will have to be a significant commercial pay-off for doing it. So, what's on the moon that's extremely rare, extremely valuable, light enough to transport back to earth, and may be required to power the planet 30-40 years from now?

Hello... anyone home?

[skookum]

If they lack the manpower how is it that 2 manned vehicles and 2 cargo vehicles currently docked to the ISS are all Russian. That the best rocket engine in use on American launchers, the RD-180, used on the Atlas-V, is made in Russia.

You speak as if the Russian have no space programme, nothing could be further from the truth. They already have the facilities and the man power, it is just a matter of whether the government fund it or not.

The only thing is, as good as the Russians are and they have good rockets their manned program has never gone further than low Earth orbit. Neither have the Chinese who so many are convinced will be on the moon in a few short years.

Russia have not had great success with unmanned Moon missions so far, and the much hyped Chinese moon rover broke down shortly after reaching the surface.

The US in terms of achievement are still miles ahead, Even if they are bit stagnant at the moment.

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

I think you're wrong... a lunar base will be extremely expensive to construct and maintain on a permanent basis, there will have to be a significant commercial pay-off for doing it. So, what's on the moon that's extremely rare, extremely valuable, light enough to transport back to earth, and may be required to power the planet 30-40 years from now?

Hello... anyone home?

Lecturing Waspie_Dwarf about spaceflight - Really ?

You need to process 150.000.000 tons of lunar regolith to get one ton of ³He.

In addition you need several ton per week to power a large fraction of the Worlds energy needs, so very quickly you are going to need to process several billion tons of regolith a year.

We can't even do deuterium/tritium fusion comercially yet and deuterium/²He is much more challenging.

It has been said that ³He fusion is aneutronic (not radioactive) as its major selling point, but there is bound to be a lot of deuterium/deuterium fusion reactions taking place, and that does produce radioactivity. (neutron radiation)

³He is a big red herring like Waspie_Dwarf said earlier, as no country is going to Invest billions of $ into mining something that might be useful in 50 years time.

If you wan't aneutronic fusion you have to go to boron-11/proton or lithium-6/proton, but these are orders of magnitude harder than the tritium/deuterium reaction we developing now.

So please check your facts before trying to lecture people on a subject, especially someone like Waspie_Dwarf.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[Waspie_Dwarf]

So please check your facts before trying to lecture people on a subject, especially someone like Waspie_Dwarf.

That's very kind of you, but I not really an expert and certainly not infallible.

Whilst I stand by what I said it is entirely possible that, one day in the future, ³He will be mined on the Moon. However it is not the reason the Russians will set up a Moon base in the near future.

[Waspie_Dwarf]

The only thing is, as good as the Russians are and they have good rockets their manned program has never gone further than low Earth orbit.

Just because they haven't don't it the past does not mean they will not do it in the future. This argument is illogical.

Neither have the Chinese who so many are convinced will be on the moon in a few short years.

But not people that know what they are talking about. The Chinese are concentrating on developing space stations at the moment, they have expressed an interest in manned lunar exploration at some specified time in the future, but they are unlikely to even start developing such a capability until after 2022.

Russia have not had great success with unmanned Moon missions so far,

Absolute nonsense. The Soviet Union operated an extremely sucessful unmanned lunar programme in the '50's '60's and '70's. including being nthe first to return images of the lunar farside, being the first to place an object in lunar orbit, being the first to impact the moon, being the first to operate an unmanned lunar rover and being the first to return lunar samples with an unmanned mission.

and the much hyped Chinese moon rover broke down shortly after reaching the surface.

Yutu is still functioning past it's originally planned life time of 3 months. It suffered an anomaly after 6 weeks, so hardly "shortly after reaching the surface." The rover has been immobile since late January, but it is still in contact with Earth and most of it's instruments are still operating more than 4 months after it landed. Not bad for a first attempt.

The US in terms of achievement are still miles ahead,

Finally, something that is partly true.

Even if they are bit stagnant at the moment.

More nonsense.

Until last week, when LADEE was deliberately crashed into the lunar surface, NASA was operating three missions in lunar orbit, LADEE, LRO and the two Artemis probes. They also operated the two GRAIL satellites (Ebb and Flow) in 2011 as well as Lunar Prospector in 1998.

Compare that to Russia:- they have not operated a single lunar mission since the break up of the Soviet Union, and you would have to go back to 1976 and the Luna 24 sample return mission for the last lunar mission of the USSR. Since Luna 24, ESA, Japan, China and India have all sent missions to lunar orbit.

It is not the USA that is stagnant in lunar exploration. Russia is, however, looking towards the Moon once more.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Waspie_Dwarf
typo.

[SecretAgentMathew]

It's probably not going to happen, see my answer above.

Almost certainly not going to happen.

NASA has a budget larger than that of Russia, China and ESA combined, NASA could suffer huge budget cuts and still be the largest space agency in the world.

Besides if you are right, when the Soviet/Russian economy collapsed then the US, China and Europe should have owned space... they didn't. The Russian space programme may have gone through problems that it is only just recovering from but it more than survived.

A budget larger than all of them combined that's sending America downhill ... I can't wait for Russia to do this! I just hope the Crimean thing doesn't start Ww3

[SecretAgentMathew]

I think you're wrong... a lunar base will be extremely expensive to construct and maintain on a permanent basis, there will have to be a significant commercial pay-off for doing it. So, what's on the moon that's extremely rare, extremely valuable, light enough to transport back to earth, and may be required to power the planet 30-40 years from now?

Hello... anyone home?

Cost isn't an issue for Russia I personally think they will succeed before the US does. Good on them and the US won't because they can't agree to anything but Russians are committed people.

[Waspie_Dwarf]

A budget larger than all of them combined that's sending America downhill ...

Total nonsense, NASA accounts for about 0.5% of US federal government spending.

[SecretAgentMathew]

Total nonsense, NASA accounts for about 0.5% of US federal government spending.

NASA sux IMO Russia will get more done guaranteed.

Edited April 21, 2014 by SecretAgentMathew

[Occams Razor]

Lecturing Waspie_Dwarf about spaceflight - Really ?

Where in the quote do you see me mention spaceflight?

You need to process 150.000.000 tons of lunar regolith to get one ton of ³He.

In addition you need several ton per week to power a large fraction of the Worlds energy needs, so very quickly you are going to need to process several billion tons of regolith a year.

I haven't done the math, but NASA have... and they think it could be worth pursuing:

http://ares.jsc.nasa.gov/humanexplore/exploration/exlibrary/docs/isru/06energy.htm

So please check your facts before trying to lecture people on a subject

Perhaps you should consider taking your own advice.