Holocaust

[LucidElement]

Mengele and the Stammers bought a house set on an acreage in Caieiras in 1969, with Mengele as half owner.^[92] When Wolfgang Gerhard returned to Germany in 1971 to seek medical treatment for his seriously ill wife and son, he gave his identity card to Mengele.^[93] The Stammers had a falling out with Mengele in late 1974 and bought a house in São Paulo; Mengele was not invited. The Stammers bought a bungalow in Eldorado, São Paulo, which they rented out to Mengele.^[96] Rolf, who had not seen his father since the ski holiday in 1956, visited him there in 1977 and found an unrepentant Nazi who claimed he had never personally harmed anyone and had only done his duty.^[97]

Mengele's health had been steadily deteriorating since 1972, and he had a stroke in 1976.^[98] He had high blood pressure and an ear infection that had an impact on his balance. While visiting his friends Wolfram and Liselotte Bossert in the coastal resort of Bertioga on 7 February 1979, he suffered another stroke while swimming and drowned.^[99] Mengele was buried in Embu das Artes under the name "Wolfgang Gerhard", whose identification card he had been using since 1971.[10

Drowning

Josef Mengele, Cause of death

.... all you gotta type in is how did Josef Mengele DIE on google.. and BOOM DROWNING (ocean not pool, my bad) .. get off my back .. thats been noted for a long time, his death.

and sad in the sense he needed to get it way worse then drowning. Like i said it was an easier way out then it should have been.

Edited April 16, 2014 by LucidElement

[toast]

Josef Mengele, Cause of death

.... all you gotta type in is how did Josef Mengele DIE on google.. and BOOM DROWNING (ocean not pool, my bad) .. get off my back .. thats been noted for a long time, his death.

I do not need Google as I`m aware about the circumstances of Mengeles death, by knowledge.

[docyabut2]

I know this sequence but it does not show an attack on Göring.

So my question again: Do you mean that (an attack on Göring) happened during the lawsuit inside the courtroom?

There is not a video of the incident, , it happen just inside the door, but I suppose there were many out side that courtroom that wanted to shoot those b*******.

[BuzzLightYear]

I know this is a touchy subject, however as a history major I really find WW2 and this part very interesting. As brutal as it was and sad as it was, I have been reading a lot lately on Auschwitz and the slave laborer camps. Its still so hard to believe that ONE man had complete control over the minds of so many people in Germany and could make them do the things they did. I know their is controversy about the death toll of Jews not being 6 million and maybe half of that, or ann frank not writing her diary because it was written in ball point pen, and that right their proves it wasnt an authentic diary. Anyways, im not interested in going into that part. Im more interested in hearing your thoughts and making a discussion surrounding the Holocaust. Herman Goening, Rudolph Hoss, Himmler, Albert Speer, all major players. Anything about the holocaust is fascinating to me, ive been to the holocaust museum and it was horrific and sad. THe conditions of Auschwitz and the stories about the survivors and the escape attempts were all fascinating to me. Especially the famous escape attempt where a few inmates dressed up as guards and drove Commandant Rudolph Hoss's car right out the front gate!!! but anyways, please feel free to join this thread, im always interested in having a holocaust conversation and learning things I have not read about. Ill keep posting as we get into convo.

Thanks!

First ballpoint pen was patented in1888 for writing on leather. Later in again in 1938 a patent were issued. So the possibility of Anne Frank writing her diary is absolutely plausible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballpoint_pen

[SHaYap]

With respect I disagree. While Jewish people suffered discrimination in most of Europe, it was only in Germany and countries occupied by or allied to Germany where Jewish people (and other "unacceptable" minorities) were rounded up and systematically killed.

In mutual respect I understand and agree ~ I was speaking in terms of the History of a greater part of Europe that preceded this episode ... this was not the first time that the European Jewish community found themselves caught in such a detestable situation ~ it went on from far further back in history ~

Having said that, had the United Kingdom been conquered by Germany I have little doubt there would have been British people happy to help round up British Jews. However, there would also have been people, as there actually were in Germany and Occupied Europe, willing to shelter Jews.

It's worth noting that Prince Phillip's mother, Princess Alice of Battenberg, was one such person, sheltering people while living in Athens during the German occupation.

As for why people acted the way they did, respect for authority is a powerful force. Very few people are willing to stand up to authority, especially when it's wielded with the efficient brutality of the Gestapo. Graphic American examples of respect for and abuse of authority are provided by the Milgram Experiment and the Stanford Prisoner Experiment.

What would I do? In that situation I doubt I'd have the courage to resist such actions. I can only hope that if such a situation arose I'd do better than that.

I am well aware of the efforts to help or save those that managed to escape Nazi controlled occupied territories in the early days of that war ~ but I must raise the point that in those early days too ~ not many were that sympathetic to the plight of the Jews other than their presumed fortunes and wealth ~

Incidentally, for what it's worth, my Dad and uncle both served in the Australian Army in World War Two. They both signed up in the weeks following the German invasion of France in May 1940. Dad served in the Engineers in North Africa and the Pacific. My uncle served in the infantry and was captured at the fall of Singapore in 1942. He survived the war, spending more than three and a half years as a "guest of the Emperor", including working on the Thai-Burma railway.

*Salutes* Dad and Uncle ~

~

~

[docyabut2]

For what its worth my Dad said when he got there in Berlin, there were still thousand of people buried in the rubbles everywhere . The German people also suffered from this catastrophe of Hitler and his cronies put on them.

[LucidElement]

First ballpoint pen was patented in1888 for writing on leather. Later in again in 1938 a patent were issued. So the possibility of Anne Frank writing her diary is absolutely plausible.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Ballpoint_pen

I agree i heard about the ball point pen in 1888 and then again in 1938. I believe her diary was real and she wrote it. I was just saying their is always those skeptics that try and bring up the pen thing lol.

[LucidElement]

A couple discussion questions that always had me curious...

1) The deaths of over a million jews were linked to the Einsatzgruppen (SS). With that in mind why do you think these soldiers were able to acknowledge the orders that were given to them to kill these innocent Jews, especially woman and children!? I watched that special they had on the BBC titled Auschwitz: Inside the Nazi State. They interviewed some of the guards that were at the camps, and i remember one saying, he had no regrets because he hated the Jews so bad. He was part of the firing squad, and he said nothing went through his mind except that he was doing the right thing and he was only worried about his aim.

2) Why didn't the allies bomb the camps or at least the railroads leading into them? After reading books, and hearing lectures, one of the biggest things that was discussed is the fact that the U.S really didnt have any clear idea of what was really going on in the concentration camps. To the Allies, for some time, they were just labor camps. It wasn't until the Wetzler report that the allies got a complete understanding about the gas chambers and how many innocent people were dying, even then they still stood skeptical.

[LucidElement]

April 1944' the Auschwitz Protocol was written, 1944 Allied forces took aerial photos of Auschwitz. Even though the camp was liberated in January of 1945, there was still a bit of gap where the allies could have bombed the railroads. Granted I know bombing the camps would kill thousands of innocent people at once, but in the long run it would save thousands upon thousands more. ....

"""""

In their first meeting in 1979, President Jimmy Carter handed Elie Wiesel—a noted author and survivor of Auschwitz who was then chairman of the President's Commission on the Holocaust—a copy of the soon-to-be-released aerial photographs of the extermination camp at Auschwitz-Birkenau (Auschwitz II), taken by American intelligence forces during World War II. Wiesel was imprisoned in Buna-Monowitz (Auschwitz III), the slave-labour camp of Auschwitz, when in August 1944 Allied planes bombed the IG Farben plant there. Of that event he wrote, “We were no longer afraid of death; at any rate, not of that death. Every bomb filled us with joy and gave us new confidence in life.”Two months after his initial meeting with Carter, in an address at the first National Days of Remembrance ceremony at the Capitol rotunda on April 24, 1979, Wiesel responded to his gift by saying, “The evidence is before us: The world knew and kept silent. The documents that you, Mr. President, handed to the chairman of your Commission on the Holocaust, testify to that effect.”""""""

[toast]

There is not a video of the incident, , it happen just inside the door, but I suppose there were many out side that courtroom that

wanted to shoot those b*******.

Video technology wasn`t available at that time, but anyway. The Nuremberg lawsuits are still one of the best dokumented lawsuits

in history. For the defendants, he highest precautions possible were established to prevent the defendants to get killed by assassins.

For example, the path from the prison cells to the court rooms was covered in wood to avoid attacks to the defendants by snipers.

There is no historic chronicle about an attack on Göring during the Nuremberg lawsuits. Not anyone of the non-executed defendants

has ever reported, in the decades after the lawsuits, about an attack on Göring during the lawsuits. If such an attack had been happen,

it would had find it`s way into the media and the name of the assassin would be a part of history. But there was nothing in the media

and there is no name. There is nothing.

Because, there was no attack on Göring during the Nuremberg lawsuits at all. So this "attack" should be keeped there from where it

originated from: in fantasy, for which reasons ever. And the reality cannot be bended by you, by using some ***** words. And you will

just reduce your credibility to zero by spreading such childish nonsense.

Edited April 17, 2014 by toast

[toast]

First ballpoint pen was patented in1888 for writing on leather. Later in again in 1938 a patent were issued. So the possibility of Anne Frank writing her diary is absolutely plausible.http://en.wikipedia....i/Ballpoint_pen

You are correct from the technical point of view in relation to ballpoint pens but the myth that the Anne Frank

diarys were written with ballpoint pens was just initiated by ultrarightwing groups to take the diarys and the author

into discredit. The diarys were written with pencils and ink and contain some appendix made with ballpoint pens

but his was done after the death of Anne Frank. Various institutes, like the Gerechtelijk Laboratorium/Netherlands

and the German Federal Office of Criminal Investigations, conducted forensic investigations on the diary papers

with the result that these are of authentic nature.

The diarys were NOT written with ballpoint pens, that`s just a propaganda lie.

Edited April 17, 2014 by toast

[LucidElement]

soo... why didnt the U.S want to bomb Auschwitz or at least the railways going into the camps? I know their is a lot of debate on the internet and has been for a long time, but what do my people think on UM? Im curious

[Peter B]

A couple discussion questions that always had me curious...

[snip]

2) Why didn't the allies bomb the camps or at least the railroads leading into them? After reading books, and hearing lectures, one of the biggest things that was discussed is the fact that the U.S really didnt have any clear idea of what was really going on in the concentration camps. To the Allies, for some time, they were just labor camps. It wasn't until the Wetzler report that the allies got a complete understanding about the gas chambers and how many innocent people were dying, even then they still stood skeptical.

An interesting question.

Wikipedia has a fairly detailed article discussing who knew what and when. As you say, it was only once the Wetzler report was published that people knew enough to do anything. It seems a lot of people dithered over the issue - whether it was worth diverting resources from directly fighting the war. I understand quite a few people considered that the quickest way to stop the killing was to win the war as quickly as possible.

One point, though, which I've never seen discussed is whether the Soviets could have done more. As far as I can see, any claim that the USA and Britain could have done more can also be made against the Soviet Union. By the time of the Wetzler report Soviet forces were easily close enough for their numerous IL-4 medium bombers to reach Auschwitz.

[Peter B]

April 1944' the Auschwitz Protocol was written, 1944 Allied forces took aerial photos of Auschwitz. Even though the camp was liberated in January of 1945, there was still a bit of gap where the allies could have bombed the railroads. Granted I know bombing the camps would kill thousands of innocent people at once, but in the long run it would save thousands upon thousands more. ....

The problem would be how long the bombed railway lines would remain out of use. The Germans had a fair bit of experience in putting bombed railway lines back into use.

There was also the issue of what sort of propaganda use the Germans might make of killed prisoners.

This is not to say I oppose the idea of bombing the camps; rather, I think a few too many Western Allied leaders found it a little too easy to dither over the issue until the camp was liberated. The issue is complex, so we should be careful about leaping to conclusions which seem obvious.

[dr no]

The problem would be how long the bombed railway lines would remain out of use. The Germans had a fair bit of experience in putting bombed railway lines back into use.

There was also the issue of what sort of propaganda use the Germans might make of killed prisoners.

This is not to say I oppose the idea of bombing the camps; rather, I think a few too many Western Allied leaders found it a little too easy to dither over the issue until the camp was liberated. The issue is complex, so we should be careful about leaping to conclusions which seem obvious.

The Germans certainly did get bombed railways running quickly,I read a book about the siege of Breslau and despite bombings there were trains still taking people out of the city until nearly the end.I think the leaders did dither over taking action,I think the problem was stopping the Nazi militarily took precedent over the camp victims unfortunately for the poor prisoners.I don't know how much difference bombings would've made as the killings didn't abate once the war turned against the Nazis,in fact they intensified as if they were determined to kill as many people as possible before the inevitable defeat

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

The problem would be how long the bombed railway lines would remain out of use. The Germans had a fair bit of experience in putting bombed railway lines back into use.

There was also the issue of what sort of propaganda use the Germans might make of killed prisoners.

This is not to say I oppose the idea of bombing the camps; rather, I think a few too many Western Allied leaders found it a little too easy to dither over the issue until the camp was liberated. The issue is complex, so we should be careful about leaping to conclusions which seem obvious.

You raise some very valid points here !

There was no need in their mind, to use valuable pilots and planes on bombing the camps, when such mission were unlikely to achieve much, beyond killing a lot of prisoners.

You have to remember this was before precision bombing was possible, so they were likely to kill many more prisoners than german soldiers.

If they had bombed the railways to the camps, the SS would probably just have used trucks to transport the prisoners or simply shot them. That was the way the einsatzgruppen dealt with jews and communist party officials in the Soviet Union.

In any event i'm sure that neither the Allies nor the Soviets realised just how bad the situation was.

This was afterall the first time anyone had seen genocide on such an organised and massive scale.

[toast]

.. why didnt the U.S want to bomb Auschwitz....

I have to ask you again, do you still know what you are talking about? For what resaon the US should had kill thousands of innovent ppl

by bombing the camp?

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

Toast you clearly knows a lot about this. Have you ever visited any of the camps ?

I haven't and i can't really decide whether i want to or not.

On the one hand it is a very important part of history, on the other hand im not sure i could handle it.

On a ligther note, i do seem to run into you a lot on this site. It seems we have much the same interests !

Edited April 17, 2014 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[DecoNoir]

I have to ask you again, do you still know what you are talking about? For what resaon the US should had kill thousands of innovent ppl

by bombing the camp?

Just to further elaborate: We were also fighting a war, a very expensive war. Hundreds of bombs and thousands of pounds of fuel, not to mention the inevitable loss of life that would result from the bombers being intercepted, all for an ideological cause that at that time wasn't even confirmed would have been a complete waste of strategic resources.

[toast]

Toast you clearly knows a lot about this. Have you ever visited any of the camps ? I haven't and i can't really decide

whether i want to or not.On the one hand it is a very important part of history, on the other hand im not sure i could handle it.

No I never visited one of these camps, even if it would take me just a few hours drive, and I will never as I would emotional

not be able to suffer such experience. I`m aware of the horror that happened and it still made my cry. Grown up in Germany,

decades after WWII, German history and especially the 3rt Reich was, of course, a part of my school education in history

science and my social environment like grandpa/grandmom/mom, jewish families and others gave me insights from

first hand. And not to forget the good parts of the German media (e.g. DER SPIEGEL) who worked very well in the past

on the issue and didn`t start sleeping just because 30-50 years have been passed by.

On a ligther note, i do seem to run into

you a lot on this site. It seems we have much the same interests !

The main reason why I`m present in this topic here isn`t based on a higher that normal interest in German history 1919

-1945. I´m here as I do not want that wrong facts, lies and nonsens(questions) about the German 19-45 period are getting

published uncommented to make sure that wrong facts are not getting established in some minds as the truth as this would

dilute the learning effects of history those were generated on sad and hard ways in the past. And I have to add that a

dangerous way gets walked when the words Holocaust and "LOL" are present in one sentence, as already happen here.

These kind of minds require education, historic and much more ethical.

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

That is exactly what i meant. Just watching it on TV always makes me feel very sad.

In Denmark it is also the period of history that gets the most attention. We were lucky enough to escape much of the fighting, but still several thousand people were sent of to the camps.

I think the way the german people reacted after the war, reflects very well on them. They took full responsibility and made sure it will never happen again.

Today Germany is probably the last country to ever accept a dictator again.

It seems that the post you are refering to have been removed, but i had to post a respons the moment i saw it. It was one of the most disrespectful posts i have ever seen.

We must never forget what happened !

[supervike]

I agree, and im reading this book called "Operation Paperclip" I have another thread going about it. But its basically about all the NAZI Scientists, that were spared during the Nuremberg trials, who were found guilty, but pardoned and brought to the USA to help us with out weapons and space programs. Some are well known in today's fields of science and space, but do we still forgive them for how they treated the innocent people during WWII, and what they created for Hitler?

I just finished that book....if it's the Annie Jacobsen one. Very interesting.

[LucidElement]

An interesting question.

Wikipedia has a fairly detailed article discussing who knew what and when. As you say, it was only once the Wetzler report was published that people knew enough to do anything. It seems a lot of people dithered over the issue - whether it was worth diverting resources from directly fighting the war. I understand quite a few people considered that the quickest way to stop the killing was to win the war as quickly as possible.

One point, though, which I've never seen discussed is whether the Soviets could have done more. As far as I can see, any claim that the USA and Britain could have done more can also be made against the Soviet Union. By the time of the Wetzler report Soviet forces were easily close enough for their numerous IL-4 medium bombers to reach Auschwitz.

Great statement, never even stopped to think about the other Allies and why they didn't step in to do the bombing. I always just pinpointed America. But your right, why didnt the Soviets bomb the railways at least? I can see the British and U.S kind of working very close together, but the Soviets, although Allies, have always been a one mind nation. Im glad you brought that thought up. Thanks!

[LucidElement]

The problem would be how long the bombed railway lines would remain out of use. The Germans had a fair bit of experience in putting bombed railway lines back into use.

There was also the issue of what sort of propaganda use the Germans might make of killed prisoners.

This is not to say I oppose the idea of bombing the camps; rather, I think a few too many Western Allied leaders found it a little too easy to dither over the issue until the camp was liberated. The issue is complex, so we should be careful about leaping to conclusions which seem obvious.

While reading about this, i came across articles and writings that stated that the time the allies got the "Auschwitz Protocol" in hand, they could have bombed the railways, because by that time, Historians and experts believe that the Germans would not have had enough time, or resources to rebuild the railways, especially now that the allies were pushing their way in.

[LucidElement]

I have to ask you again, do you still know what you are talking about? For what resaon the US should had kill thousands of innovent ppl

by bombing the camp?

I know your trying to back your country, but like any historian will tell you... the reason to bomb Auschwitz would be to save thousands and thousands of more Jews with the possibility of being transported the the camp.. The teachings go, no concentration camps, no gas chambers.. they bomb Auschwitz as well as other camps, thousands would perish in camps, however it saves the lives of many more. So yes, i do no what im talking about.

Any i think you mean "INNOCENT" hahahaah

Edited April 18, 2014 by LucidElement