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Agent0range

Conservatives vs Liberals

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No Censorship

Personally I think the fear and panic felt after 9/11 (remember terrorism feels quite different when it takes place at home) fueled the Bush Administration to go after Saddam. In retrospect we can see it was probably not a great decision...hindsight is 20/20.

As to the general question, both liberals and conservatives have their moments and their foibles.

I knew that it was a mistake about two days after it started. That was when I saw the folly of the neoconservative movement. I then distrusted individuals that I once admired and respected. Fortunately, many people began a voyage of discovery when they saw the duplicity.

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Frank Merton

As I recall Iraqi oil production is now above that of the Saddam levels, which had been dropping because of mismanagement. I also suspect the people, especially those in the south, are much better off, and the country is getting on its feet. One wonders at the slaughters Saddam carried out: America paid a price but overall they are to be admired for making the sacrifice and in the end no doubt saved lives, although history is tricky and this would be difficult to prove since we don't know what would have happened had he stayed in power.

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Yamato

There was plenty of hindsight already in 2002 that acting out of fear and panic wasn't a great decision. But the Bush administration was cold and calculating: "Get me everything you've got on Iraq." The sales pitch that came months later was fed on fear and nonsense.

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Br Cornelius

I have alot of issues with our foreign policy, I think we mess with other countries government too much to make sure that the people we want are in charge.

But with that being said Saddam did have to be taken out. He has a horrible track record. An calling someone evil is a relative term but in my opinion he was a evil SOB. Lets look at some of his track record.

- * In February 1988, Iraq forcibly relocated Kurdish civilians from their home villages in the Anfal campaign. An estimated 50,000 to 180,000 Kurds were killed.

- * On March 16, 1988, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iraqi Kurdish civilian opponents in the town of Halabja. About 5,000 Kurds died. Townspeople continue to suffer from numerous birth defects.

- * On September 22, 1980, Iraq invaded Iran. This started an 8-year war during which Iraq employed chemical weapons against Iranian troops and ballistic missiles against Iranian cities.

- * In April 1993, Iraq orchestrated a failed plot to assassinate former President George Bush during his April 14-16, 1993 visit to Kuwait.

http://fcnl.org/reso...l_track_record/

​And the list continues. Not to mention the fact that everyone gives crap about how we never found any WMD, well the thing is Saddam acted like he did, he wanted the world to believe it. When we interviewed some of the officers all of the captains assumed the WMDs where in the other guys squad. Thats how much Saddam wanted people to believe it. He wanted to invade Kuwait and genocidaly killed people. I did not want someone like him having nukes.

If defending the innocent was what it was all about then the USA would be neck deep in conflict, its about self interest. Where's the honesty - where is the integrity ?

Br Cornelius

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Bama13

That was just the conspiracy theorists making you think it was a conspiracy spartan. Some things look very much out in the open to me.

How do you know what was never uttered? How about Isoroku Yamamoto's alleged quote about the rifles and blades of grass? I could say you're better than that and maybe I am too, I'm still going to use the quote to get the point across. I don't need a babysitter of history to tweak my accuracy until it's anal. Let them eat cake is often used, and should be.

Well hell, then lets all just make up anything we want and attribute it to whomever we want.

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No Censorship

As I recall Iraqi oil production is now above that of the Saddam levels, which had been dropping because of mismanagement. I also suspect the people, especially those in the south, are much better off, and the country is getting on its feet. One wonders at the slaughters Saddam carried out: America paid a price but overall they are to be admired for making the sacrifice and in the end no doubt saved lives, although history is tricky and this would be difficult to prove since we don't know what would have happened had he stayed in power.

Tell that to the dead civilians. They're much more than collateral damage.

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Br Cornelius

Also how anyone expected Iraq to maintain oil production whilst they were embargoed by the west for a decade or more is beyond me. Remember the oil for food program - which meant that oil exports along with everything else was highly restricted and imports of essential engineering equipment was practically nil.

It would have taken a miracle for oil production not to have risen when the oil kings rolled into town - after all that was what it was all about.

Br Cornelius

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F3SS

Also how anyone expected Iraq to maintain oil production whilst they were embargoed by the west for a decade or more is beyond me. Remember the oil for food program - which meant that oil exports along with everything else was highly restricted and imports of essential engineering equipment was practically nil.

It would have taken a miracle for oil production not to have risen when the oil kings rolled into town - after all that was what it was all about.

Br Cornelius

So oil production ceased or declined?

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No Censorship

Also how anyone expected Iraq to maintain oil production whilst they were embargoed by the west for a decade or more is beyond me. Remember the oil for food program - which meant that oil exports along with everything else was highly restricted and imports of essential engineering equipment was practically nil.

It would have taken a miracle for oil production not to have risen when the oil kings rolled into town - after all that was what it was all about.

Br Cornelius

How were Iraqi civilians impacted by the embargo? Have we not had our fill of suffering innocents? I support our military, but I'm not too crazy about the politicians and pundits who cheer for unjust wars. It's funny how they forget the "think of the children" cliche before they bomb their homes.

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Yamato

Well hell, then lets all just make up anything we want and attribute it to whomever we want.

We're making up fascism we want well enough. If you truly hate tyranny that fact wouldn't escape you, whoever you attribute it to.

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Bama13

We're making up fascism we want well enough. If you truly hate tyranny that fact wouldn't escape you, whoever you attribute it to.

So you attribute a quote to a person that didn't say it and because I point that out I don't hate tyranny? Whatever

How about this "quote" from you: "I prefer tyranny to freedom."

Or this one, also from you: "Fascism is the best form of government ever devised by man."

Of course as far as I know you never said either of those, but since we are just making up stuff here it is okay, right?

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spacecowboy342

Are you sure that the Rockefellers aren't running the show *now*? I'm not saying that they rule our country and world, but they still remain influential through trusts and such. You can say the same thing for the Rothschilds. It's a financial Gordian Knot that would require a team of forensics specialists to pull the first few strands. Now, we have entities who want to recreate the halcyon days of sole ownership of resources. The difference is that the contemporary entities concentrate on the internet and satellites. Information is the new oil. Just ask AT&T, Comcast, Google, etc..

The Bilderberger group is meeting again soon. If anyone runs the show it is them

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Yamato

So you attribute a quote to a person that didn't say it and because I point that out I don't hate tyranny? Whatever

How about this "quote" from you: "I prefer tyranny to freedom."

Or this one, also from you: "Fascism is the best form of government ever devised by man."

Of course as far as I know you never said either of those, but since we are just making up stuff here it is okay, right?

The quote I provided for you, unfortunately along with the apparently painful picture of Sarah Palin wrapped in a flag and holding a cross, is agreeable to Sinclair Lewis's writings unlike these feeble attempts at rhetorical disagreement with me for no reason.

It was a funny picture and a joke. Lighten up with the anal retentiveness dude. What's eating you lately? Is this the Bama13 I remember from History or is this an imposter whose more anal about attributing quotes correctly (Yamamoto Bama?) than admitting we're being screwed by a fascist state?

Edited by Yamato

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No Censorship

The Bilderberger group is meeting again soon. If anyone runs the show it is them

They just met in Copenhagen. It was their sixtieth anniversary. I kicked myself when I realized that I forgot to buy a card and a gift. It's hard to find Hallmark greeting cards for global cabals!

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Frank Merton

There was plenty of hindsight already in 2002 that acting out of fear and panic wasn't a great decision. But the Bush administration was cold and calculating: "Get me everything you've got on Iraq." The sales pitch that came months later was fed on fear and nonsense.

That's called leadership. He saw something that needed doing and he did what was necessary to do it. It kinda reminds me of Lincoln declaring marshal law in Maryland to keep the state from seceding.

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No Censorship

That's called leadership. He saw something that needed doing and he did what was necessary to do it. It kinda reminds me of Lincoln declaring marshal law in Maryland to keep the state from seceding.

He declared martial law, and he ripped the Constitution in varied ways. He freed no slaves in the Union states, though.

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Frank Merton

So in this he was morally derelict and a hypocrite, all in a good cause that ended up freeing them a little later. That is the stuff of political leadership.

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Yamato

That's called leadership. He saw something that needed doing and he did what was necessary to do it. It kinda reminds me of Lincoln declaring marshal law in Maryland to keep the state from seceding.

It wasn't "leadership" after they came back and told him there was nothing. It was a pack of lies and hundreds of thousands died for it. About the only thing Lincoln and Bush have in common is they're both morbidly overrated.

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Frank Merton

Who is this "they" who told him there was nothing? When did they tell him this? How would "they" have known. Saddam was certainly acting like he had a lot to hide -- I have never been able to figure this out -- it was as though Saddam felt himself above ordinary human beings.

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No Censorship

So in this he was morally derelict and a hypocrite, all in a good cause that ended up freeing them a little later. That is the stuff of political leadership.

It just took around a million deaths to achieve his goals. With leadership like that, who needs tyranny?

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Frank Merton

And how many deaths were needed to free the slaves?

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Yamato

Who is this "they" who told him there was nothing? When did they tell him this? How would "they" have known. Saddam was certainly acting like he had a lot to hide -- I have never been able to figure this out -- it was as though Saddam felt himself above ordinary human beings.

The CIA, that's who.

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No Censorship

And how many deaths were needed to free the slaves?

It was a dying institution in the western world. Evidently, Lincoln wasn't too worried about the slaves in the Union states, and he often said that they weren't the main reason for the war. The war was to stop secession from succeeding. Slaves were secondary or tertiary concerns for him.

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Bama13

The quote I provided for you, unfortunately along with the apparently painful picture of Sarah Palin wrapped in a flag and holding a cross, is agreeable to Sinclair Lewis's writings unlike these feeble attempts at rhetorical disagreement with me for no reason.

It was a funny picture and a joke. Lighten up with the anal retentiveness dude. What's eating you lately? Is this the Bama13 I remember from History or is this an imposter whose more anal about attributing quotes correctly (Yamamoto Bama?) than admitting we're being screwed by a fascist state?

I started out just messing with ya. Then I may have gotten a little carried away. I do this occasionally. Sorry.

I did state that I agreed with the sentiment of your "quote".

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spacecowboy342

That's called leadership. He saw something that needed doing and he did what was necessary to do it. It kinda reminds me of Lincoln declaring marshal law in Maryland to keep the state from seceding.

Hogwash. Getting young men killed for lies is not leadership

It wasn't "leadership" after they came back and told him there was nothing. It was a pack of lies and hundreds of thousands died for it. About the only thing Lincoln and Bush have in common is they're both morbidly overrated.

I would add Reagan to that list

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