A little dubunking experiment

[White Crane Feather]

Often in criticism or debunking the power of the critic or debunker relys on their creative power. Often lawyers use these sorts of tactics to discredit and cast doubt on testimony or witnesses. Often somone looking to debunk somethin will point something that has been written in this sort of pose and claim with certainty that the event or cliam has been debunked or figured out. To cast some light on this creative process I want to try my hand at it. Post a true story that you know happened and ill see how creatively skeptical I can be. Note this is an exercise it dosnt mean I don't believe you.

[toast]

Whut muns dubunking?

[George Ford]

Ok,

does it have to be paranormal or any story?

[Kenemet]

Tyrannosaurs lived in Alaska during the end of the Cretaceous period. There is a pygmy tyrannosaur from that area called Nanuqsaurus. It is about the size of a horse.

Apply skepticism.

[George Ford]

Tyrannosaurs lived in Alaska during the end of the Cretaceous period. There is a pygmy tyrannosaur from that area called Nanuqsaurus. It is about the size of a horse.

Apply skepticism.

"Post a true story that you know happened" It is my understanding that you have to relate to the story due to personal experience to it. You just posted hear say. OP please clarify.

Edited April 17, 2014 by bulveye

[redhen]

True story; "I think, therefore I am."

I await your refutation with joyful anticipation.

[Kenemet]

"Post a true story that you know happened" It is my understanding that you have to relate to the story due to personal experience to it. You just posted hear say. OP please clarify.

In fact, a friend of mine worked on this project, and that was the basic information I got. So it meets the qualifications.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Kenemet

[George Ford]

In fact, a friend of mine worked on this project, and that was the basic information I got. So it meets the qualifications.

So you are saying that a friend told you? Cos a friend told me he saw a bigfoot once...

[White Crane Feather]

Ok,

does it have to be paranormal or any story?

Nope in fact the more mundane the better.

[George Ford]

OK,

I went out running about 2 years ago during the summer and saw a mouse climbing a dandelion stalk, I stopped to watch. The dandelion bent a little more the higher the mouse got until the head was touching the ground. The mouse climbed to the head and as it was on the ground it let go of the stem and the plant sprung back to normal again. The mouse seemed startled at the sudden movement and could not work out where the dandelion head had gone. I then continued running.

[White Crane Feather]

Tyrannosaurs lived in Alaska during the end of the Cretaceous period. There is a pygmy tyrannosaur from that area called Nanuqsaurus. It is about the size of a horse.

Apply skepticism.

The first thing that is clear that they only found parts of a head. What can they really day about the whole animal.

"What scientists know about Nanuqsaurus hoglundi comes from just a few fragments: The top part of a skull section, part of a lower jaw, and part of an upper facial jawbone."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/14/us/dinosaur-discovery-alaska/

How do we really know its not just T. rex with a genetic defect. Like microcephalic in humans. Especially since its the only type of that's been found. And it's only a few bones. I realize how nice it is to find a new dinosaur, I'm sure it would make some archeologists career, but shouldn't we at least wait until we find another skeleton before proclaiming to the world a new cousin of the trex has been found. I have seen immature and deformed adolescent animals in many species, there is no reason that I can see to Jump to any conclusions just yet.

[White Crane Feather]

In fact, a friend of mine worked on this project, and that was the basic information I got. So it meets the qualifications.

Oh that is interestining. Are you sure you are not just trying to help him gain some noteriety?

Edited April 17, 2014 by White Crane Feather

[White Crane Feather]

OK,

I went out running about 2 years ago during the summer and saw a mouse climbing a dandelion stalk, I stopped to watch. The dandelion bent a little more the higher the mouse got until the head was touching the ground. The mouse climbed to the head and as it was on the ground it let go of the stem and the plant sprung back to normal again. The mouse seemed startled at the sudden movement and could not work out where the dandelion head had gone. I then continued running.

Yeah right. That's like something out of a Tom an jetty cartoon. That must have been a pretty small mouse I have never in my life seen dandelion stalk that could support the weight of a mouse even a little bit. It's all anecdotal anyway. Either that mouse was the size of a quarter or that dandelion stalk could have been a world record flower.

[George Ford]

Yeah right. That's like something out of a Tom an jetty cartoon. That must have been a pretty small mouse I have never in my life seen dandelion stalk that could support the weight of a mouse even a little bit. It's all anecdotal anyway. Either that mouse was the size of a quarter or that dandelion stalk could have been a world record flower.

Well I think the dandelion was normal size but the mouse was small. I think it must have been a juvenile.

[Kenemet]

The first thing that is clear that they only found parts of a head. What can they really day about the whole animal.

"What scientists know about Nanuqsaurus hoglundi comes from just a few fragments: The top part of a skull section, part of a lower jaw, and part of an upper facial jawbone."

http://www.cnn.com/2...scovery-alaska/

How do we really know its not just T. rex with a genetic defect. Like microcephalic in humans. Especially since its the only type of that's been found. And it's only a few bones. I realize how nice it is to find a new dinosaur, I'm sure it would make some archeologists career, but shouldn't we at least wait until we find another skeleton before proclaiming to the world a new cousin of the trex has been found. I have seen immature and deformed adolescent animals in many species, there is no reason that I can see to Jump to any conclusions just yet.

* It's paleontologists, not archaeologists. There's a huge difference.

* I happen to know that there's another piece of the skull, found the day after they sent the initial paper in for publication (my friend found that part of the skull in a bucket of rocks to be prepped, and has a hilarious story about it)

* "diagnosed by the following characters: thin, rostrally-forked, median spur of the fused parietals on the dorsal skull roof that overlaps and separates the frontals within the sagittal crest; frontal with a long, rostrally-pointed process separating the prefrontal and lacrimal facets; first two dentary teeth/alveoli much smaller (measured as maximum mesiodistal length) than dentary teeth/alveoli 3 through 9 in mature individuals, such that the mesiodistal length of alveolus 1 is less than 35 percent that of alveolus 3 and 25 percent or less that of alveolus 4, and such that the mesiodistal length of alveolus 2 is less than 50 percent that of alveolus 3 and 33 percent or less that of alveolus 4."

(hence, tyrannosaurus)

* The nasal-maxilla contact is either smoothly grooved or bears only weak scalloping in immature individuals and more basal tyrannosauroids [2], [6]. The presence of this feature in DMNH 21461 is evidence that the material also represents a developmentally mature individual. (hence, adult)

* No other tyrannosaurid taxon has two reduced mesial dentary teeth, or such a size disparity between them and the more distal teeth in mature individuals as is seen in the holotype of Nanuqsaurus hoglund

(hence, unique and not a "deformed individual")

* The increase in body size by one theropod taxon and the reduction in body size by a second theropod taxon suggest that there may have been external ecological pressure for an optimal body size for predatory dinosaurs in the seasonal Cretaceous Arctic ecosystem of northern Alaska. This convergence in body size was dictated by the effective net biological productivity during the growing season. For Nanuqsaurus hoglundi the resource limits selected for smaller body size, while for the sympatric Troodon the adaptive advantage of larger eyes in the highly seasonal physical environment selected for larger body size.

(hence, small size is actually a reasonable evolutionary strategy)

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0091287

[White Crane Feather]

Well I think the dandelion was normal size but the mouse was small. I think it must have been a juvenile.

That's pretty observant of you to be able to determine a juvenile mouse while jogging. Are you sure you didn't just scare the poor thing while you were running and maybe the flower was blowing in the wind. That's Is a much more plausible scenario than a mouse pulling off a bugs bunny Shtick. The only thing left out if this story is it using a knife to cut a string only to be launch into a tree to save his friend from a hawk. It's funny to even think about.

Edited April 17, 2014 by White Crane Feather

[Kenemet]

Oh that is interestining. Are you sure you are not just trying to help him gain some noteriety?

If I was, I'd link to her comments.

[White Crane Feather]

If I was, I'd link to her comments.

They work in groups, I linked to the article for you, just bringing it up is bound to score a lot more its and searches for it. These tactics are used by sneaky spammers all the time. Do you have anyone else you are selling?

Edited April 17, 2014 by White Crane Feather

[George Ford]

That's pretty observant of you to be able to determine a juvenile mouse while jogging. Are you sure you didn't just scare the poor thing while you were running and maybe the flower was blowing in the wind. That's Is a much more plausible scenario than a mouse pulling off a bugs bunny Shtick. The only thing left out if this story is it using a knife to cut a string only to be launch into a tree to save his friend from a hawk. It's funny to even think about.

Well here is proof that a mouse can climb a dandelion. This is not my picture as I did not have my phone with me that day:- https://s-media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/a5/f6/0e/a5f60eba3bae8db4c284f1fbda263192.jpg

[Kenemet]

They work in groups, I linked to the article for you, just bringing it up is bound to score a lot more its and searches for it. These tactics are used by sneaky spammers all the time. Do you have anyone else you are selling?

The article I linked to is the PLOS paper, and it's quite an interesting read. There's a very deep level of detail in it, and I can actually understand most of what they're saying from having had anatomy class an age or six ago.

Were there any points about the tyrannosaur that you found confusing from that PLOS paper? There's news story links like the one you found, but I find them much less interesting. The paper also has some additional reference material, and I'm sure I can find other papers on tyrannosaurids if you like.

[Kazahel]

I love the timing of this thread. Ten minutes of stewing away to then serve dinner to feel full.

Anyway, carry on.

[GodIsWearingBlack]

This thread is proof that irony can indeed be hilarious.

[White Crane Feather]

* It's paleontologists, not archaeologists. There's a huge difference.

* I happen to know that there's another piece of the skull, found the day after they sent the initial paper in for publication (my friend found that part of the skull in a bucket of rocks to be prepped, and has a hilarious story about it)

* "diagnosed by the following characters: thin, rostrally-forked, median spur of the fused parietals on the dorsal skull roof that overlaps and separates the frontals within the sagittal crest; frontal with a long, rostrally-pointed process separating the prefrontal and lacrimal facets; first two dentary teeth/alveoli much smaller (measured as maximum mesiodistal length) than dentary teeth/alveoli 3 through 9 in mature individuals, such that the mesiodistal length of alveolus 1 is less than 35 percent that of alveolus 3 and 25 percent or less that of alveolus 4, and such that the mesiodistal length of alveolus 2 is less than 50 percent that of alveolus 3 and 33 percent or less that of alveolus 4."

(hence, tyrannosaurus)

* The nasal-maxilla contact is either smoothly grooved or bears only weak scalloping in immature individuals and more basal tyrannosauroids [2], [6]. The presence of this feature in DMNH 21461 is evidence that the material also represents a developmentally mature individual. (hence, adult)

* No other tyrannosaurid taxon has two reduced mesial dentary teeth, or such a size disparity between them and the more distal teeth in mature individuals as is seen in the holotype of Nanuqsaurus hoglund

(hence, unique and not a "deformed individual")

* The increase in body size by one theropod taxon and the reduction in body size by a second theropod taxon suggest that there may have been external ecological pressure for an optimal body size for predatory dinosaurs in the seasonal Cretaceous Arctic ecosystem of northern Alaska. This convergence in body size was dictated by the effective net biological productivity during the growing season. For Nanuqsaurus hoglundi the resource limits selected for smaller body size, while for the sympatric Troodon the adaptive advantage of larger eyes in the highly seasonal physical environment selected for larger body size.

(hence, small size is actually a reasonable evolutionary strategy)

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0091287

Yes of course not archeology... My bad.

So if I'm understanding all this jargon correctly this is all based on a few teeth? And they have worked out the intricacies evolutionary pressures from 70 -90 million years ago?

[White Crane Feather]

Well here is proof that a mouse can climb a dandelion. This is not my picture as I did not have my phone with me that day:- https://s-media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/a5/f6/0e/a5f60eba3bae8db4c284f1fbda263192.jpg

It's not proof that a mouse can climb a dandelion. It could be proof that a photographer can steal a baby mouse from its nest and place it in one for a good photo op.

[George Ford]

It's not proof that a mouse can climb a dandelion. It could be proof that a photographer can steal a baby mouse from its nest and place it in one for a good photo op.

There are countless other people that have seen a mouse climb a dandelion, and remember the stem did bend all the way down. I think it was a dandelion. It could have been a flower with a yellow head similar to a dandelion. Besides why would I make a story like that up?