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Trickle down economics is a lie, the proof !


Guest Br Cornelius

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Unfortunately that is the role of the state by definition - it sets the rules to achieve the outcomes it seeks. The subjects of the state can attempt to influence that - but ultimately the state has greater responsibilities than to look after the interests of any one social sector.

No matter how you slice it - its the state which decides how the best outcome is achieved and it always will be. I just think that most states at the moment have made some very bad choices and placed the stability of society at risk as a consequence. That to me is the ultimate dereliction of duty.

Br Cornelius

The state cannot be trusted and should have its powers be as limited as possible. The state should not interfere in the market unless absolutely necessary. History shows that when the state intervenes to achieve 'the best outcome' the best outcome is never achieved. The economy is far too complicated for the state to effectively manage it, and the risk of corruption is far too great. All the state should do is create a set of rules that private individuals operate within so as to limit the possibility for corruption and monopoly on the private side, but let the free market handle the rest.

Things only get worse when the state starts to meddle. The state starts to meddle to fix one problem and creates 2 more, then the state says it needs new powers to fix those 2 problems and creates 4 more. It is a slippery slope and always ends badly for all of society. In the free market there are winners and losers. But at least there are some winners.

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And you live in fantasy land if you think I care a **** for what you or anyone else has. I have enough and want little extra. I just want to live in a world that works for the benefit of everyone and gives my kids opportunities to prospect from their own talents. that is fast disappearing under current economic conditions.

I think it is only the covertous people who want to see the rich keep it all - because you want to be one of them.

Br Cornelius

Why shouldn't the rich keep what they have earned? Who are we to steal from one and give to another? Who decides what is 'fair'? Germany is a different country with a different history, different social structure, and different cultural mix. What works in Germany will not necessarily work in the US. The US is the worlds economic superpower and if the US collapsed Germany would go down with it. If Germany were to collapse, it would hurt, but the US would keep trucking along.

There are plenty of opportunities in the US. If you are smart, go to school, work hard, have a positive attitude, and take time to learn how to work with people you will have tremendous opportunity in the US. Yes the rich are getting richer in the US, and our tax policies are screwed up, but that can be fixed without literally stealing from the rich to give to the poor.

Edited by Einsteinium
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Plenty of countries intervene in the way you suggest (Germany for one) and it still hasn't stopped it been one of the most successful countries in the world.

Once you let the wealth balance get out of hand you stifle innovation since it is just as likely that a good innovation will come from someone without the contacts or resources to develop it - and when the top has all the money they just don't give a **** about the little mans ideas - since more of the same is just a profitable for them if they can keep everyone in their place.

Br Cornelius

Well I'm talking about private innovation but for the heck of it, what is the maximum one person can earn in a lifetime in Germany?

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I completely agree that we need regulated markets, but we must allow the natural cyclical market motions to take place. That means we have to allow companies to rise and fall by their own merits. There will be losers and there will be winners. Individual freedom should be the highest value in a society, and whether you realize it or not the German market and just about all other markets around the world are incredibly dependent on the US economy. As the US economy goes, so goes the world. If our system is so terribly bad, then why is this so?

If our system is so bad, then why was I able to rise from a C average high school student to an A college student in engineering who now has a job that puts me squarely in the middle of the middle class with lots of potential upside and opportunity? If our system is so bad, then why did people in the US invent The computer? Mass assembly line production? The light bulb? The Iphone? on and on...why is China cyber-spying on us to steal our innovations instead of innovating for themselves?

I don't think the US system is bad, it has boom and bust cycles, and some companies get too big, but who cares? 50 years ago there was no personal computers let along Microsoft, now you are whining that we HAVE to buy Microsoft products? Nobody is forcing you to buy a computer, nobody is forcing you to buy cable TV. You are very much so welcome to live off the grid just as things were before those companies ever existed! The fact is that those companies made life easier/more productive/more interesting for you, and now you condemn them for capitalizing on it?

Again you miss the point - the original linked to article shows what happens when the difference between the wealthy and the poor gets to large. REVOLUTION.

That is what is brewing for the system unless it solves the problem of how to give everyone enough for their needs and their ambitions. There is a problem and a looming crisis which cannot be ignored for much longer, how we climb down from that crisis is the question and whether there is a will to make society work again. It doesn't even have to be a socialist solution, for as surprising as it might seem I am not a big fan of socialism, it has to be a system which gives people a stake in society and a productive role which allows them to secure their essential needs and further their ambitions if they have any.

Let me just also remind you that the transistor and microchips were developed by NASA for the space program - a government program.

Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

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The state cannot be trusted and should have its powers be as limited as possible. The state should not interfere in the market unless absolutely necessary. History shows that when the state intervenes to achieve 'the best outcome' the best outcome is never achieved. The economy is far too complicated for the state to effectively manage it, and the risk of corruption is far too great. All the state should do is create a set of rules that private individuals operate within so as to limit the possibility for corruption and monopoly on the private side, but let the free market handle the rest.

Things only get worse when the state starts to meddle. The state starts to meddle to fix one problem and creates 2 more, then the state says it needs new powers to fix those 2 problems and creates 4 more. It is a slippery slope and always ends badly for all of society. In the free market there are winners and losers. But at least there are some winners.

that my friend is an article of faith not supported by the evidence. Many highly state controlled countries have done amazingly well and I would point you to the British state during the second world war, the German state and Japanese state in the post war periods, China in the modern period and South Korea.

If you want to be taken seriously please do not try to peddle belief as fact.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Guest
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The original link is a promo for a book of many claims. No one here has owned up to ever even reading it though I asked early on.

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Again you miss the point - the original linked to article shows what happens when the difference between the wealthy and the poor gets to large. REVOLUTION.

That is what is brewing for the system unless it solves the problem of how to give everyone enough for their needs and their ambitions. There is a problem and a looming crisis which cannot be ignored for much longer, how we climb down from that crisis is the question and whether there is a will to make society work again. It doesn't even have to be a socialist solution, for as surprising as it might seem I am not a big fan of socialism, it has to be a system which gives people a stake in society and a productive role which allows them to secure their essential needs and further their ambitions if they have any.

Let me just also remind you that the transistor and microchips were developed by NASA for the space program - a government program.

Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

Actually AT&T's Bell Labs invented the transistor.

By microchip I assume you are referring to integrated circuits? Jack Kilby ofTexas Instruments patented the principle of integration, created the first prototype ICs and commercialized them. Kurt Lehovec of Sprague Electric Company invented a way to electrically isolate components on a semiconductor crystal. Robert Noyce of Fairchild Semiconductor invented a way to connect the IC components (aluminium metallization) and proposed an improved version of insulation based on the planar technology by Jean Hoerni. On September 27, 1960, using the ideas of Noyce and Hoerni, a group of Jay Last at Fairchild Semiconductor created the first operational semiconductor IC.

And furthermore, who pays for those government programs? Taxpayers. Government funded programs are ultimately paid for by taxpayers, in other words, private companies and individuals.

I get that there is a problem with wealth disparity in the United States that is getting worse. I just disagree that it is a problem for the state to solve. It is a problem that we all must work to solve, the state included, but caps on wealth, insanely high tax rates, redistributionism- those are not the way to solve the problem in the US, not if the US wants to stay at the top of the innovation and entrepreneurship game worldwide.

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Why shouldn't the rich keep what they have earned? Who are we to steal from one and give to another? Who decides what is 'fair'? Germany is a different country with a different history, different social structure, and different cultural mix. What works in Germany will not necessarily work in the US. The US is the worlds economic superpower and if the US collapsed Germany would go down with it. If Germany were to collapse, it would hurt, but the US would keep trucking along.

There are plenty of opportunities in the US. If you are smart, go to school, work hard, have a positive attitude, and take time to learn how to work with people you will have tremendous opportunity in the US. Yes the rich are getting richer in the US, and our tax policies are screwed up, but that can be fixed without literally stealing from the rich to give to the poor.

No one is stealing from the rich. the rich built their wealth off the infrastructure of the State and the public capitol of the educated people. Allowing the wealthy to keep all of their earnings is directly sponging off the investment the country has made in itself. You look at things in far to narrow a world view. If a wealthy person doesn't wantr to pay back the investment then he can go and live in a poor country where there is no infrastructure or education - they never do.

Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

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that my friend is an article of faith not supported by the evidence. Many highly state controlled countries have do amazingly well and I would point you to the British state during the second world war, the German state and Japanese state in the post war periods, China in the modern period and South Korea.

If you want to be taken seriously please do not try to peddle belief as fact.

Br Cornelius

Let me just also remind you that the transistor and microchips were developed by NASA for the space program - a government program.

Let me guess, monopoly via govt program is okie dokie. Nope, nothing top secret there. Somehow you can wait for the market to expand in that case. Somehow we're all protected from the "social corrosion".

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No one is stealing from the rich. the rich built their wealth off the infrastructure of the State and the public capitol of the educated people. Allowing the wealthy to keep all of their earnings is directly sponging off the investment the country has made in itself. You look at things in far to narrow a world view. If a wealthy person doesn't wantr to pay back the investment then he can go and live in a poor country where there is no infrastructure or education - they never do.

Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

Wow. So essentially this is Barrack Obamas "You didn't build that" speech rehashed.

Now I'm curious as to what exactly you mean by 'pay back'. Charities and donations?

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that my friend is an article of faith not supported by the evidence. Many highly state controlled countries have do amazingly well and I would point you to the British state during the second world war, the German state and Japanese state in the post war periods, China in the modern period and South Korea.

If you want to be taken seriously please do not try to peddle belief as fact.

Br Cornelius

That depends on your definition of doing very well. I would not want to live in China right now, the wealth disparity in China makes the US wealth disparity look tiny by comparison. Their poor make most of our poor look like middle class, and their middle class resembles our moderate poor. If that is your definition of doing well, then your definition is not at all the same as mine.

Britain during WW2? Really? You think they were doing well during WW2? They were being bombed by the Germans and their imperial empire was falling apart, the United States literally saved them. You call that doing well?

The Japanese state post WW2? The US sent experts over to Japan to help them rebuild, and taught them mass production techniques and statistical analysis, this is well documented. The Japanese have since become experts at it.

South Korea? Well that is something we can agree on :)

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No one is stealing from the rich. the rich built their wealth off the infrastructure of the State and the public capitol of the educated people. Allowing the wealthy to keep all of their earnings is directly sponging off the investment the country has made in itself. You look at things in far to narrow a world view. If a wealthy person doesn't wantr to pay back the investment then he can go and live in a poor country where there is no infrastructure or education - they never do.

Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

You are just simply wrong. Who built the railroads in this country? Who built the oil pipelines and shipping companies that ignited world trade? Not the govt, private companies did it. Government helps fund things, but the vision, the talent, and the will to do it in the United States comes from private companies and individuals. We all owe a debt. to Thomas Edison, Nikolai Tesla, Standard Oil, Cornelius Vanderbilt. Whether you admit it or not those men paved the way for the infrastructure we have. They were the minds behind it, the government simply continues building off of their ideas.

I agree that the current system favors the wealthy. In my opinion dividends and capital gains should be taxed higher than ordinary income tax. I think as a nation we should value hard work, earned income, more than investment income. But this is a complicated issue. I just do not think giving more power to the state would solve anything, it would simply be handing more power over to the wealthy, since they essentially control govt. anyways.

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Quality Assurance/Control was implemented in Japan before it ever got out of the textbooks in America. Japan proved one hell of a test market for it.

But apparently we should just wait for war and let government handle it through war demand. That's a great economy there, Br. Real social.

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Let me guess, monopoly via govt program is okie dokie. Nope, nothing top secret there. Somehow you can wait for the market to expand in that case. Somehow we're all protected from the "social corrosion".

No they financed the research for the Moon trip. Lots of private industries working to achieve a Government strategic objective - thats how it works.

Br Cornelius

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No they financed the research for the Moon trip. Lots of private industries working to achieve a Government strategic objective - thats how it works.

Br Cornelius

So what exactly are you advocating for? Can you please state what you think should be done to 'fix' the system in your opinion?

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You are just simply wrong. Who built the railroads in this country? Who built the oil pipelines and shipping companies that ignited world trade? Not the govt, private companies did it. Government helps fund things, but the vision, the talent, and the will to do it in the United States comes from private companies and individuals. We all owe a debt. to Thomas Edison, Nikolai Tesla, Standard Oil, Cornelius Vanderbilt. Whether you admit it or not those men paved the way for the infrastructure we have. They were the minds behind it, the government simply continues building off of their ideas.

I agree that the current system favors the wealthy. In my opinion dividends and capital gains should be taxed higher than ordinary income tax. I think as a nation we should value hard work, earned income, more than investment income. But this is a complicated issue. I just do not think giving more power to the state would solve anything, it would simply be handing more power over to the wealthy, since they essentially control govt. anyways.

You have got to a point where nothing short of a people revolt can rest control back from the wealthy, its very sad that your nation has come to the pass where violence seems the only way to correct its systemic problems. Fundamentally though you miss your target, your system of state organization has hit a crisis point where it threatens the safety of the nation - but it is fundamentally wrong to say that the state is not the essential driver of a nations destiny and that involves making choices about where you want to end up. To attempt to strangle the state into submission is a path to disaster and one of the main flaws with the current crop of republicans.

Br Cornelius

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No they financed the research for the Moon trip. Lots of private industries working to achieve a Government strategic objective - thats how it works.

Br Cornelius

And so the government strategic objective is what immunizes us from the social corrosion of private industries. Sounds like another statist preaching more Wartardation to me.

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So what exactly are you advocating for? Can you please state what you think should be done to 'fix' the system in your opinion?

It is never straightforward to suggest pithy solutions - but the first step is to accept that there is a problem to solve and then to look deeply at the evidence for what actually works. The problem for me is this debate is always driven by preconceived ideological solutions which always ignore the evidence. This whole thread has been about pointing out the crisis at hand, and people have done nothing but deny that the evidence says that when a nation become unbalanced financially it becomes unbalanced socially and that is a problem for everyone.

Br Cornelius

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And so the government strategic objective is what immunizes us from the social corrosion of private industries. Sounds like another statist preaching more Wartardation to me.

You live in a representative democracy - if you don't like your governments choices its up to you to change them. You cannot chop off the head of society and expect the body to keep moving. Corporations do not share any of the same obligations or responsibilities as a state does - it has one obligation - to make profit. You may feel comfortable in the hands of people who's sole interest is profit - but it certainly doesn't make me feel secure in the belief that they will be looking out for me and my family.

Br Cornelius

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Likewise, how can you feel comfortable under the wing of those whose sole interest is power?

Edited by F3SS
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Likewise, how can you feel comfortable under the wing of those whose sole interest is power?

I don't have to like politicians - but they can be held accountable and they can be elected. Big difference.

Br Cornelius

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You live in a representative democracy - if you don't like your governments choices its up to you to change them. You cannot chop off the head of society and expect the body to keep moving. Corporations do not share any of the same obligations or responsibilities as a state does - it has one obligation - to make profit. You may feel comfortable in the hands of people who's sole interest is profit - but it certainly doesn't make me feel secure in the belief that they will be looking out for me and my family.

Br Cornelius

People whose sole interest is profit isn't reserved for private enterprise. Entrepreneurs want to make the world a better place too and there's political capital among politicians everywhere.

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You live in a representative democracy - if you don't like your governments choices its up to you to change them. You cannot chop off the head of society and expect the body to keep moving. Corporations do not share any of the same obligations or responsibilities as a state does - it has one obligation - to make profit. You may feel comfortable in the hands of people who's sole interest is profit - but it certainly doesn't make me feel secure in the belief that they will be looking out for me and my family.

Br Cornelius

No, we do NOT live in a representative democracy. Your ignorance regarding our system has just become extremely apparent. Out system is a democratic republic. It amazes me how many people do not know this. I agree that we have systemic problems, however, I disagree about what is causing those problems. And I disagree that violent revolt is our only solution to solve our problems, and I agree that there are no simple solutions. However, expanding regulation and government control over our system is only going to do more harm than good. Have you seen how many regulations we have? Have you seen how complicated our tax code is? We need to simplify our regulations, get rid of ones that do not work. We need to simplify our tax code- get rid of loopholes for the rich. We need to build businesses, innovate, and create jobs- we do that, private individuals do that, not government.

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People whose sole interest is profit isn't reserved for private enterprise. Entrepreneurs want to make the world a better place too and there's political capital among politicians everywhere.

Once a company becomes bigger than a sole trader it is its legal duty to maximize profits otherwise the board can be fired. This defines the culture in all large corporations - they are obliged to favour profits over a social conscience. Hence we get the CEO of Shell been a very nice man - but the company killing activists if they interfere with their operations in the Nigar delta.

Br Cornelius

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Once a company becomes bigger than a sole trader it is its legal duty to maximize profits otherwise the board can be fired. This defines the culture in all large corporations - they are obliged to favour profits over a social conscience. Hence we get the CEO of Shell been a very nice man - but the company killing activists if they interfere with their operations in the Nigar delta.

Br Cornelius

Once again your are wrong. I work for a publicly traded company in the US and we have an extensive program for giving to charity, scholarships for students, and giving back to the community in many different ways. We helped finance a local zoo in a public park that is free for everyone in the community. If we only wanted profit, why would we spend money on all those things? Why would the company I work for donate to cancer research and give employees paid days off for volunteer work? A greedy company that only wants profit would not do those things, yet we do. And we are a publicly traded company with a board and shareholders and the works.

Your characterization that all private corporations in the US only care about profit is simply just wrong.

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