Over 600 sentenced to death in Egypt

[RoofGardener]

Well, following a judges death sentence on around 500 Muslim Brotherhood supporters back in March, an Egyptian court has just sentenced another 680 to death... in one sitting.

The previous (March) judgement was reduced to life imprisonment for all but about 50 of the accused, but even so that's going to keep the executioner busy !

BBC Report

It seems the crime - attacking a police station - was the same in both cases. (umm... different police stations, but... you know what I mean). Perhaps the Muslim Brotherhood had better stop attacking police stations, lest it runs out of Brothers.

[Ashotep]

When they were in power they shouldn't have been so heavy handed and they would still be in power.

However the people in power now should back off of only allowing police sanctioned protests or they will also be thrown out. Don't let Islam run the country. You want to be considered better than the people before you.

These mass trials are a joke. They should only give the ones that actually killed someone such a stiff penalty as death and only if you can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[meryt-tetisheri]

The BBC report is one-sided, swapping the roles of victims and criminals! None of the victims' families were interviewed, their loss and suffering totally ignored by the reporter as well as by HRW and Amnesty International. The lawyers chose to boycott the session which makes their performance 'farcical'.

The accused are facing 17 charges, not just one and these include:

-The murder of 11 police officers and soldiers ( some bodies were tied to motorcycles and dragged in the streets)

-The murder of 44 civilians

-Gravely injuring 452 civilians (in some cases causing quadriplegic paralyses)

-Attacking and burning 21 police stations

-Torching 8 churches, a convent & 4 mosques

-Destruction and looting of Malawi Museum

-Torching houses and businesses of Christian families, forcefully evicting them from their villages.

-Kidnapping for ransom of christian children

-Demand of 'jizya' in return for allowing the remaining Copts to stay...

I have just returned from a long visit to Egypt, I saw, I heard, and yes, I also feared the reality of what ordinary Egyptians have to live through day in and day out at the hands of the MB and its supporters. It has nothing to do with the clichéed, nauseatingly sugar-coated coverage of the Western media. Have a look at #mb-europe on twitter to get a more realistic idea of what is going on in Egypt. The demonstrations are not peaceful protests but arranged armed riots during which murder, arson, vandalism are regularly committed.

As for the last court case, I have relatives who lived in Minya, in an apartment building in front of a targeted police station. The building was overrun, they had to barricade their door using most of their furniture to prevent the mob from breaking in. Their neighbors were not so lucky. The apartments were looted and ransacked, the furniture hurtled from windows, butane bottles were used as fire bombs and thrown on the police station. In such small communities members of the MB are known and are recognizable. The accused were not innocent 'teachers and doctors' quietly staying at home and haphazardly arrested. They deliberately rioted with the intent to cause harm to innocent people in retaliation for the ouster of Mursi. They can appeal the verdict, their victims who were slaughtered and their bodies lynched in the streets could neither appeal nor resist, they were sacrificial scapegoats.

In reality, the picture below is more representative of a regular MB Friday 'protest' than that included in the BBC report. During these (at least) weekly riots they carry Molotov cocktail bottles, fireworks, swords, knives, metal bars, bird shot, guns and even machine guns.

[Yamato]

I can't agree with killing these people. Many of them had very little or nothing to do with murdering police officers. Accusing hundreds of all of those charges? Crazy! Punishing them collectively with death is madness. Egypt's govt goes too far.

[libstaK]

It really does beggar belief, attacks, revenge attacks state sanctioned killings of hundreds in mass trials - there is nothing remotely resembling proper justice system in that country. It is all embroiled with Sharia Laws and Islamic fatwas, it's just craziness and it is resulting in a genocidal bloodbath on both sides. Rwanda may yet be superceded as the worst genocide in the shortest period of time over there.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

The BBC report is one-sided, swapping the roles of victims and criminals! None of the victims' families were interviewed, their loss and suffering totally ignored by the reporter as well as by HRW and Amnesty International. The lawyers chose to boycott the session which makes their performance 'farcical'.

The accused are facing 17 charges, not just one and these include:

-The murder of 11 police officers and soldiers ( some bodies were tied to motorcycles and dragged in the streets)

-The murder of 44 civilians

-Gravely injuring 452 civilians (in some cases causing quadriplegic paralyses)

-Attacking and burning 21 police stations

-Torching 8 churches, a convent & 4 mosques

-Destruction and looting of Malawi Museum

-Torching houses and businesses of Christian families, forcefully evicting them from their villages.

-Kidnapping for ransom of christian children

-Demand of 'jizya' in return for allowing the remaining Copts to stay...

I have just returned from a long visit to Egypt, I saw, I heard, and yes, I also feared the reality of what ordinary Egyptians have to live through day in and day out at the hands of the MB and its supporters. It has nothing to do with the clichéed, nauseatingly sugar-coated coverage of the Western media. Have a look at #mb-europe on twitter to get a more realistic idea of what is going on in Egypt. The demonstrations are not peaceful protests but arranged armed riots during which murder, arson, vandalism are regularly committed.

As for the last court case, I have relatives who lived in Minya, in an apartment building in front of a targeted police station. The building was overrun, they had to barricade their door using most of their furniture to prevent the mob from breaking in. Their neighbors were not so lucky. The apartments were looted and ransacked, the furniture hurtled from windows, butane bottles were used as fire bombs and thrown on the police station. In such small communities members of the MB are known and are recognizable. The accused were not innocent 'teachers and doctors' quietly staying at home and haphazardly arrested. They deliberately rioted with the intent to cause harm to innocent people in retaliation for the ouster of Mursi. They can appeal the verdict, their victims who were slaughtered and their bodies lynched in the streets could neither appeal nor resist, they were sacrificial scapegoats.

In reality, the picture below is more representative of a regular MB Friday 'protest' than that included in the BBC report. During these (at least) weekly riots they carry Molotov cocktail bottles, fireworks, swords, knives, metal bars, bird shot, guns and even machine guns.

First off, meryt-tetisheri, your effort here is well appreciated. you showed the "other side of the coin".

What I object most to here, is the "mass trial".

We have in total of about 1,100 people sentenced to death for all of these crimes, considerably more than the number of victims.

Surely, by the odds, some of those convicted are not murderers.

But with the way things are today in Egypt, I guess they have to be expedient. Shame.

[Frank Merton]

I rather suspect in fact the number of victims vastly exceeds the number sentenced.

[Timothy]

Heard this on the radio this morning: If they aren't at trial apparently they get the maximum sentence which is death in this case (most accused are still on the run). But also apparently that sentence automatically goes to appeal twice and to the highest court, so most should not face death.

My opinion: I don't agree with the process at all and most likely there will at least be tens of executions to make a statement. Seems barbaric and backwards.

[Frank Merton]

In my opinion sometimes executions are necessary, but they should be rare and involve affirmative actions by the highest authorities. Raw numbers don't mean much.

A few days ago a Vietnamese-origin Australian was sentenced to death for trying to smuggle a large amount of heroine out of the country. Of course this too is preliminary and will go through many reviews and appeals, but the fact that it got in the papers indicates such executions are rare.

[+and-then]

Heard this on the radio this morning: If they aren't at trial apparently they get the maximum sentence which is death in this case (most accused are still on the run). But also apparently that sentence automatically goes to appeal twice and to the highest court, so most should not face death.

My opinion: I don't agree with the process at all and most likely there will at least be tens of executions to make a statement. Seems barbaric and backwards.

As was the treatment meted out to the victims. There is no such thing among human beings as perfect justice. If the authorities don't put out the fire that the MB are trying to kindle then Egypt might have a future like Syria's. THAT would truly be barbaric.

[meryt-tetisheri]

I can't agree with killing these people. Many of them had very little or nothing to do with murdering police officers. Accusing hundreds of all of those charges? Crazy! Punishing them collectively with death is madness. Egypt's govt goes too far.

How exactly do you 'know' that many of them had very little or nothing to do with murdering police officers? The prosecution had photographs and witnesses to identify members of the mob, but what evidence did you use to arrive at such a conclusion? They were idiotic enough, and also stone-hearted enough to take pictures as souvenirs of their 'conquest', these are available on line but I can not post them here. To give you an idea of the extent of their cruelty, one police officer was tied by the feet to the back of a motorcycle and dragged in the streets for one hour and a half until he died. Another injured policeman was taken to ER, where instead of treating him an MB doctor actually finished him off! Tell me please what is the punishment for murdering a police officer in the States, and what are the chances of survival for one who aims a gun at a police officer?

You said nothing about the 44 murdered civilians, nor the 452 injured!

[meryt-tetisheri]

It really does beggar belief, attacks, revenge attacks state sanctioned killings of hundreds in mass trials - there is nothing remotely resembling proper justice system in that country. It is all embroiled with Sharia Laws and Islamic fatwas, it's just craziness and it is resulting in a genocidal bloodbath on both sides. Rwanda may yet be superceded as the worst genocide in the shortest period of time over there.

LibstaK, though I'm quoting your post my reply is not addressing just your post but the others as well. It is easier than writing several replies.

During his last speech as president, Mursi clearly stated that it is acceptable to sacrifice a few, even a million people, for 'the greater good', i.e. maintaining the MB in power. One of their leaders said:"either we rule you or we kill you". This is the foundation of the terror campaign waged against Egyptians by the MB. There are no basis for comparison between Rwanda and Egypt, it is not an ethnic civil war but an organized, planned, systematic and very bloody terror campaign used as means to achieve definite political goals. Demonstrations are armed, snipers are hidden among the 'protesters', even behind women, they shoot at security and civilians alike then escape on motorbikes. These protests are financed by MB leaders in Egypt and abroad. They hire homeless children and youth to do the dirty work for them.

http://www.emannabih.com/muslim-brotherhood-admit-torturing-civilians-and-targeting-police-and-military-individuals-and-their-families/

While the prosecution and courts are handling one case, with all the delay tactics used by the defendants lawyers, tens of other protests have taken place, with new victims, bombings...etc. One of the MB objectives is to flood the justice system, cripple it, and thus render it ineffective. By also targeting security forces and their families, the MB aims to dishearten and weaken them totally. Close to 600 security members (army and police) have been killed so far. Just yesterday 2 bombs were discovered in cars of two different officers in Cairo alone. Another tactic recently employed is to target journalists, and women and children, passers by, who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. In addition, demonstrators torch cars and shops on their route, with the quasi-non-existent insurance, this translates into total financial ruin for people who have nothing to do with either the MB or security. In the meanwhile, anger among regular citizens is building up and the number of clashes between citizens and protesters are increasing. There is mounting pressure on the government to take decisive action, and swiftly.

While many of you are concerned about due process, may I remind you that Egypt is going through a real war on terror; and as Timonthy mentioned in post #8, the juridical process allows for appeal (twice), then the files are referred to the Grand Mufti before any one is executed.

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/from-the-arab-world/exposed-the-muslim-brotherhoodal-qaeda-connection/

(while I do not agree with all the view points of the author, the article is the only one I found with the english translation of the recorded calls)

What I find shocking is the general tepid concern for the lives and safety of the public! The USA uses drones to bomb terrorism suspects in Afghanistan and Yemen, without any due or undue process, innocent lives are also lost yet in Egypt's case all are concerned about 'due process' and it is assumed that the rights of murderers supersede those of their victims. Below are pictures of two young Egyptian women who were killed in Ain Shams, Cairo, along with a 14 years old boy on March 28 by an MB mob. The veiled woman was a 25 years old journalist who was covering the riot. In her last phone report to her newspaper she said that armed MB protesters were using live ammo and were shooting at the inhabitants of the area. She was shot in the head. The unveiled young woman was driving the red car in the second photo, she had a cross in the car. The mob surrounded her car, smashed it, dragged her out of the car. She was mauled, stripped of her clothes, scalped, stabbed 16 times and shot in the back. Look at the picture of the mob, the faces of the crowd and consider whether the police could enlarge such a photo and identify some of the people; then start questioning the courts procedural ruling and due process.

Edited April 29, 2014 by meryt-tetisheri

[meryt-tetisheri]

This is the picture of Mayada, the journalist I referred to in my previous post the other is of a sniper aiming at residential buildings (3 attempts but for some reason I cannot paste the picture of Mayada Ashraf, I give up)!

Edited April 29, 2014 by meryt-tetisheri

[meryt-tetisheri]

I apologize for 'nacro-posting', but I have just come across this article which does a better job explaining the trials than I did

The Minya Court verdict to sentence 529 Muslim Brotherhood members to death in the August 2013 events was met with overwhelming criticism worldwide. An exaggerated sentence, it is, no doubt—in fact, unprecedented. Other than in mass massacres, at no time do 529 civilians end up receiving death sentences.Still, the public, along with the media, needs to understand 1) how courts in Egypt apply the law and 2) the grounds for such a verdict...

http://azzasedky.typepad.com/egypt/2014/04/comprehending-529-death-sentences.html

[+and-then]

I apologize for 'nacro-posting', but I have just come across this article which does a better job explaining the trials than I did

http://azzasedky.typepad.com/egypt/2014/04/comprehending-529-death-sentences.html

It sounds as though the verdicts are hardly written in stone. This is just another example of different interests pushing their own agendas - demonizing that which they either do not understand or simply wish to denigrate.

[Frank Merton]

It seems harsh until you read about some of the things they did to Christians and other Muslims not as "devout" as they.

[Yamato]

The charges are what they are, and the burden of proof is on the govt of Egypt to provide evidence for each one of these people on their mass extermination list to be guilty of all the charges on that list of charges. Or else it's just a political charade and a gross miscarriage of justice.

This isn't just "harsh" this is a horror.

[Frank Merton]

I rather suspect in this day of video cameras and so on that they will have plenty of evidence about any they actually execute.

[meryt-tetisheri]

The charges are what they are, and the burden of proof is on the govt of Egypt to provide evidence for each one of these people on their mass extermination list to be guilty of all the charges on that list of charges. Or else it's just a political charade and a gross miscarriage of justice.

This isn't just "harsh" this is a horror.

Yamato, please..."mass extermination" is over dramatic! Again you are assuming that incriminating evidence is absent or insufficient, a claim that has no proof to back or substantiate it: simply presuppositions based on mauvais fois. Evidence was submitted to the court, as should be, not necessarily the media. How did you expect to be personally informed of the evidence?

Again I question your reluctance to address the crimes committed, and the real horror visited on the victims. As I mentioned before, check on Twitter #mb-europe if it's 'evidence' that you need to see, I cannot post here pictures of horrific gore. The accused were not individually charged with the full list as you are assuming, where did you get that from? They had organized themselves into groups, each tasked with a different role to facilitate the attacks: some blocked roads to prevent aid reaching the attacked, others torched police stations...etc., and were charged accordingly. Facebook & Twitter are full of 'evidence' of MB crimes posted by Egyptians who witnessed, and lived through, the real horror. The hash-tag I referred to started as an initiative by Egyptians who were fed up with mis- & disinformation disseminated by international media, gather information before you accuse others of "extermination".

You never answered my questions about the penalty for murdering police officers in your country, or the chances of survival of rioters raising arms against them, let alone lynching them & setting the police station on fire. How many of them would live long enough to see a day in court? Finally, explain to me the judicial process that accompanies drone attacks, and the protection of the legal rights of those attacked? "War on terror"? Egypt is facing the same, and it will not be turned into another Syria.

[+and-then]

Yamato, please..."mass extermination" is over dramatic! Again you are assuming that incriminating evidence is absent or insufficient, a claim that has no proof to back or substantiate it: simply presuppositions based on mauvais fois. Evidence was submitted to the court, as should be, not necessarily the media. How did you expect to be personally informed of the evidence?

Again I question your reluctance to address the crimes committed, and the real horror visited on the victims. As I mentioned before, check on Twitter #mb-europe if it's 'evidence' that you need to see, I cannot post here pictures of horrific gore. The accused were not individually charged with the full list as you are assuming, where did you get that from? They had organized themselves into groups, each tasked with a different role to facilitate the attacks: some blocked roads to prevent aid reaching the attacked, others torched police stations...etc., and were charged accordingly. Facebook & Twitter are full of 'evidence' of MB crimes posted by Egyptians who witnessed, and lived through, the real horror. The hash-tag I referred to started as an initiative by Egyptians who were fed up with mis- & disinformation disseminated by international media, gather information before you accuse others of "extermination".

You never answered my questions about the penalty for murdering police officers in your country, or the chances of survival of rioters raising arms against them, let alone lynching them & setting the police station on fire. How many of them would live long enough to see a day in court? Finally, explain to me the judicial process that accompanies drone attacks, and the protection of the legal rights of those attacked? "War on terror"? Egypt is facing the same, and it will not be turned into another Syria.

As you correctly surmise, Meryt, anyone even aiming a firearm at a cop in the US is apt to forfeit his/her life.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/09/officer-shooting-93-year-old/8886487/

If a LEO feels threatened they can use deadly force - period - and it is rarely a decision that has severe consequences attached. The scenes of what is happening/has happened there would be met with overwhelming force here. At least initially. If a case was made during a massive political insurrection then I think most cops would be on the side of the locals. But it would have to be a very popular cause. Pontificating on the laws/legal customs of a foreign government is a fools errand.

[Frank Merton]

A firing squad killing, what is it now, 1100, Egyptians ain't gonna be a pretty sight. The authorities need to find themselves a way out of this box and just incarcerate most of them, and shoot only those who can be proved to have killed someone.

This is just pragmatic politics; I don't doubt they deserve it some of the outrages that went on.

[meryt-tetisheri]

A firing squad killing, what is it now, 1100, Egyptians ain't gonna be a pretty sight. The authorities need to find themselves a way out of this box and just incarcerate most of them, and shoot only those who can be proved to have killed someone.

This is just pragmatic politics; I don't doubt they deserve it some of the outrages that went on.

The death sentence was only a preliminary, not a final verdict, 400 are on the run & were tried in absentia; then there are appeals, then the Grand Mufti would give his opinion. A better explanation of the process is provided in the article I linked before. No, executions are never a pretty sight, but the way they killed those officers in Minya & before in Kerdassa, Giza is, to say the least, extremely barbaric. I had the misfortune of seeing the photos taken by the terrorists themselves during and after the killing. I'm not sure how to describe actions that are both amazingly idiotic and cruel, such as taking souvenir pictures of lynching people by motorcycles. The photographer was less than 2 meters from the driver! They were that immune to any kind of humane sanity. Anyway, my point is that the murders are exceptional in their brutality and deserve a firm punishment, even though exceptional

[meryt-tetisheri]

As you correctly surmise, Meryt, anyone even aiming a firearm at a cop in the US is apt to forfeit his/her life.

http://www.usatoday....ar-old/8886487/

If a LEO feels threatened they can use deadly force - period - and it is rarely a decision that has severe consequences attached. The scenes of what is happening/has happened there would be met with overwhelming force here. At least initially. If a case was made during a massive political insurrection then I think most cops would be on the side of the locals. But it would have to be a very popular cause. Pontificating on the laws/legal customs of a foreign government is a fools errand.

It was not a popular uprising, but a mob that rioted, some out of conviction, others were paid to do so. However, they were organized and carefully staged to take place in different villages at the same time, a premeditated plan to cause chaos by attacking museums, churches, homes of Christians and police stations, all at the same time to force the reinstatement of Mursi and in retaliation for his removal from office. The MB have never been less popular, so much that no politician dares mention reconciliation with them. The police might side with protesters in USA, but I think not when people are beheaded, houses burning etc. They should have reacted with overwhelming force as you said, except the fires were lit all over Egypt at the same time.

[Yamato]

Yamato, please..."mass extermination" is over dramatic! Again you are assuming that incriminating evidence is absent or insufficient, a claim that has no proof to back or substantiate it: simply presuppositions based on mauvais fois. Evidence was submitted to the court, as should be, not necessarily the media. How did you expect to be personally informed of the evidence?

Again I question your reluctance to address the crimes committed, and the real horror visited on the victims. As I mentioned before, check on Twitter #mb-europe if it's 'evidence' that you need to see, I cannot post here pictures of horrific gore. The accused were not individually charged with the full list as you are assuming, where did you get that from? They had organized themselves into groups, each tasked with a different role to facilitate the attacks: some blocked roads to prevent aid reaching the attacked, others torched police stations...etc., and were charged accordingly. Facebook & Twitter are full of 'evidence' of MB crimes posted by Egyptians who witnessed, and lived through, the real horror. The hash-tag I referred to started as an initiative by Egyptians who were fed up with mis- & disinformation disseminated by international media, gather information before you accuse others of "extermination".

You never answered my questions about the penalty for murdering police officers in your country, or the chances of survival of rioters raising arms against them, let alone lynching them & setting the police station on fire. How many of them would live long enough to see a day in court? Finally, explain to me the judicial process that accompanies drone attacks, and the protection of the legal rights of those attacked? "War on terror"? Egypt is facing the same, and it will not be turned into another Syria.

I have to prove a lack of proof? I'm not assuming the lack of evidence, I'm acknowledging it. The burden of evidence is on the defense? That's the polar opposite of how we do things here. Nobody could ever be defended from anything if that's the game your govt is playing; just kill them all.

The penalty for a gathering where police officers were murdered doesn't get the whole crowd executed.

I'm the strongest anti-drones voice on this forum. You'll never find one more opposed to US foreign policy than I am. If I was kowtowing to US foreign policy, you'd have some validity in using it in a response to me of all people. The sins of my country don't excuse yours but they do serve as a convenient change of subject at least.

[Yamato]

As you correctly surmise, Meryt, anyone even aiming a firearm at a cop in the US is apt to forfeit his/her life.

http://www.usatoday....ar-old/8886487/

If a LEO feels threatened they can use deadly force - period - and it is rarely a decision that has severe consequences attached. The scenes of what is happening/has happened there would be met with overwhelming force here. At least initially. If a case was made during a massive political insurrection then I think most cops would be on the side of the locals. But it would have to be a very popular cause. Pontificating on the laws/legal customs of a foreign government is a fools errand.

This isn't about police in Egypt opening fire on people who were pointing guns at them. If this was that, I wouldn't even be here. This is how their court system works, and you approve of this?

If you're trying to sell this bag of garbage that there is some kind of contemporary precedent here where the US govt put hundreds to death collectively for some kind of violent gathering, without having to prove the guilt of each individual in the act, please show me.