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Preparing the next generations

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and then

And also no doubt that you guys will claim that those penguins has initiated the attacked first and Israel is just defending itself from the penguin

terrorist!!!!!!!!!!! :w00t:

You are just trying to divert my point

That wasn't my intent. I thought you were saying that as long as Israel wasn't settled on any part of Palestine, it would be okay for the Jews to have their state. If that isn't what you meant, where and on how much land in Palestine do you think the Palestinians would accept a Jewish state?

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jeem

That wasn't my intent. I thought you were saying that as long as Israel wasn't settled on any part of Palestine, it would be okay for the Jews to have their state. If that isn't what you meant, where and on how much land in Palestine do you think the Palestinians would accept a Jewish state?

That is not my decision.It is the decision of the Palestinian.

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RoofGardener

Does that include the Palestinian Jews ? (e.g. the Israeli's)

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and then

That is not my decision.It is the decision of the Palestinian.

I don't recall there being one in our conversation. You implied the point - it's how you work. We both know what you meant and now you will not admit it. It gets boring, Jeem.

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Yamato

Someone who's 100% Jewish and 100% Palestinian must be from difficult to impossible for a mutually exclusive Zionist to understand.

"He's pro-Palestine! That's not a real Jew!"

Derp.

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RoofGardener

lol... up until 1948, "Palestinian" simply meant somebody who lived in a specific region. All of the jews where palestinian.

Being "pro-palestinian" would be somebody who supports a geographical region.

Then it all changed. Instead of Palestinian Arabs and Palestinian Jews (amongst other groupings), we suddenly had Israeli's, Egyptians, Jordanian's and Syrians. All of whom where Palestinian. Some Israeli's where Muslim... some Jordanians (or Syrian's etc) where Christian. (But no Jewish Jordanians or Syrians etc... they where all ethnicaly cleansed and forced to move to Israel).

It was great times of full employment for Cartographers.

Edited by RoofGardener

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Yamato

True. They DID invade, and not only occupied, but actually annexed the land (permanently destroying any hope of a Palestinian State).

Fortunately, those awfully nice Israeli Defense Forces kicked the invaders out, and relinquished the land to the Palestinians.

Sadly, the PLO/Muslim Brotherhood - true to type - responded by bombing restaurants in Israel. Hence the liberation turned into an occupation, pending a peace agreement with the PLO. Thanks guys. Nice one.

I would rather hope that Israel would only Jail specific individuals that are found guilty - by due process - of bombing etc. And these are not just "accusation" - over 600 Israeli citizens killed between 1988 and 2012 inside Israel by palestinian bomb and gun attacks.

As for "behavior in jail...." .. that is a standard feature of most judicial systems.

Very true.

Fun perhaps, but no justice.

They haven't "relinquished the land" to anyone but themselves, looking at everything they've done since, and their self-relinquishment has only been limited to the amount of extremists foolish enough to move there. They just don't have the population density to finish the annexation on the wall some people like you aren't ready to read. They're undergoing the most disturbing occupation on the planet today. I don't want to go visit your irrelevant antiques as if the sins of the past excuse the sins of the present.

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RoofGardener

...... I don't want to go visit your irrelevant antiques as if the sins of the past excuse the sins of the present.

Isn't there a saying about "those who refuse to learn from history.... " ?

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Yamato

Isn't there a saying about "those who refuse to learn from history.... " ?

In this case learning from history is to discontinue repeating it. What is so important about the status quo in Israel to your life in the UK Midlands?

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RoofGardener

In this case learning from history is to discontinue repeating it. What is so important about the status quo in Israel to your life in the UK Midlands?

In practical terms ? Not a huge amount. Except that the religious philosophy driving terrorist bombers in the UK, and radicals trying to take over schools to poison childrens' minds, is the same philosophy that is being used to drive terror attacks against Israel and poison Palestinian childrens' minds. We are both civilized nations under attack from a cruel, repressive, medieval political system, so there is a tendency to be interested in what is happening to each other.

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and then

In practical terms ? Not a huge amount. Except that the religious philosophy driving terrorist bombers in the UK, and radicals trying to take over schools to poison childrens' minds, is the same philosophy that is being used to drive terror attacks against Israel and poison Palestinian childrens' minds. We are both civilized nations under attack from a cruel, repressive, medieval political system, so there is a tendency to be interested in what is happening to each other.

Kind of gets down to that doesn't it? This ideology is so toxic that eventually everyone is going to have to make a choice. Live on your knees or risk death to fight it.

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Yamato

In practical terms ? Not a huge amount. Except that the religious philosophy driving terrorist bombers in the UK, and radicals trying to take over schools to poison childrens' minds, is the same philosophy that is being used to drive terror attacks against Israel and poison Palestinian childrens' minds. We are both civilized nations under attack from a cruel, repressive, medieval political system, so there is a tendency to be interested in what is happening to each other.

If their religious philosophy is to fight occupation and state sanctioned terrorism, don't get in bed with occupiers and terrorists. Someone shouldn't need a religious philosophy to do that. It's common sense. Religion is incidental, not a unique reason to oppose foreign occupation and crimes against humanity.

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and then

If their religious philosophy is to fight occupation and state sanctioned terrorism, don't get in bed with occupiers and terrorists. Someone shouldn't need a religious philosophy to do that. It's common sense. Religion is incidental, not a unique reason to oppose foreign occupation and crimes against humanity.

Religion that calls for genocide of a group of people is a leetle more serious than just "incidental".

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Yamato

Religion that calls for genocide of a group of people is a leetle more serious than just "incidental".

Why don't you pick up a copy of the Torah and read it? Sorry, that's no reason to pick sides here either.

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RoofGardener

If their religious philosophy is to fight occupation and state sanctioned terrorism, don't get in bed with occupiers and terrorists. Someone shouldn't need a religious philosophy to do that. It's common sense. Religion is incidental, not a unique reason to oppose foreign occupation and crimes against humanity.

Religion is incidental ?

Hmm.... HAMAS covenant, article 8 (eight).

"Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes."

HEZBOLLAH (translation: Party of God)

Those two examples suggest somewhat more than an incidental involvement of religion, Yamato.

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Yamato

Religion is incidental ?

Hmm.... HAMAS covenant, article 8 (eight).

"Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes."

HEZBOLLAH (translation: Party of God)

Those two examples suggest somewhat more than an incidental involvement of religion, Yamato.

Religion is incidental to whether we have principles or not regarding how we treat other people, and the charter sounds like what a resistance movement's charter would say, religion or not.

This is what the Hamas charter, and the election results in Gaza, are responding to: "The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."

Well now, since they're not invoking Yahweh it's okay. If you want ANY people to resist you, oppress them. Don't treat them with intolerance and then expect them to submit to it, and then fake surprise and outrage when they don't.

The Hamas charter isn't scripture but we can find scripture easily enough:

"My prayer, my acts of worship, and my living and my dying are for Allah, the Sustainer of all the worlds"

When Israel is killing Palestinians on a regular basis, not dying in vain would be the preferable way to go.

And with all this narrow minded focus on Hamas, the settlements are in the West Bank, and they didn't vote for Hamas. What an incredibly self-deluded worldview to think that Hamas in Gaza, as recent a development as that is, is any manner of cause in this conflict.

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RoofGardener

Religion is incidental to whether we have principles or not regarding how we treat other people.......

HAMAS covenant, Article 1

The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.

"The Universe, Life, and MAN ? Judgement in all its conduct ? That sounds VERY much like Religion determining how we "treat other people" to ME, Yamato.

, and the charter sounds like what a resistance movement's charter would say, religion or not.

Pish Posh Yamato. In over 9000 words, The Covenant mentions Palestine 20 times, 'Palestinian' 29 times, but Allah 92 times, Islam 136 times, Muslim (and varients like Moslem) 57 times, and 'Nation' (including variants such as Nationhood, nationality etc) just 30 times.

I'm sorry dude, but that does NOT smack of being a 'standard' resistance movement's charter. That is a RELIGION-based movement.

This is what the Hamas charter, and the election results in Gaza, are responding to: "The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."

Well now, since they're not invoking Yahweh it's okay. If you want ANY people to resist you, oppress them. Don't treat them with intolerance and then expect them to submit to it, and then fake surprise and outrage when they don't.

That quote was from a 15-year-old document. It was superceded after Oslo. The modern (2009) version of it can be found here

The Hamas charter isn't scripture.......

<sigh>

"The Koran is our constitution...."

I never SAID that the Covenant was scripture. It is anchored in scripture, however.

And with all this narrow minded focus on Hamas, the settlements are in the West Bank, and they didn't vote for Hamas.

If you're talking about the occupied territories (West Bank), then the palestinians there most certainly DID vote for HAMAS. Remember, originally HAMAS and the PLO/Fatah where more or less evenly spread around. It was only when the world rejected a Palestinian National Authority with a HAMAS majority that HAMAS revolted, and took over Gaza.

What an incredibly self-deluded worldview to think that Hamas in Gaza, as recent a development as that is, is any manner of cause in this conflict.

Since their invasion and occupation of Gaza, HAMAS have launched over TEN THOUSAND rockets and mortars into Israeli residential areas. And you say that this is not a 'cause in this conflict' ?

Where DO you live, Yamato, such that 10,000 missiles in just 5 years (2000 per year) would NOT be the cause of "conflict" ?

Edited by RoofGardener

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Yamato

HAMAS covenant, Article 1

The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.

"The Universe, Life, and MAN ? Judgement in all its conduct ? That sounds VERY much like Religion determining how we "treat other people" to ME, Yamato.

Pish Posh Yamato. In over 9000 words, The Covenant mentions Palestine 20 times, 'Palestinian' 29 times, but Allah 92 times, Islam 136 times, Muslim (and varients like Moslem) 57 times, and 'Nation' (including variants such as Nationhood, nationality etc) just 30 times.

I'm sorry dude, but that does NOT smack of being a 'standard' resistance movement's charter. That is a RELIGION-based movement.

That quote was from a 15-year-old document. It was superceded after Oslo. The modern (2009) version of it can be found here

<sigh>

"The Koran is our constitution...."

I never SAID that the Covenant was scripture. It is anchored in scripture, however.

If you're talking about the occupied territories (West Bank), then the palestinians there most certainly DID vote for HAMAS. Remember, originally HAMAS and the PLO/Fatah where more or less evenly spread around. It was only when the world rejected a Palestinian National Authority with a HAMAS majority that HAMAS revolted, and took over Gaza.

Since their invasion and occupation of Gaza, HAMAS have launched over TEN THOUSAND rockets and mortars into Israeli residential areas. And you say that this is not a 'cause in this conflict' ?

Where DO you live, Yamato, such that 10,000 missiles in just 5 years (2000 per year) would NOT be the cause of "conflict" ?

I live in a world that exists through time. Of course it's not the cause of the conflict, it's a symptom of the conflict. The conflict already began. Have some perspective on your chronology of events already. I would only have to say that to someone with no knowledge of this topic.

Five years ago? The conflict began more than five years ago. You can't see beyond five years so you're never going to understand this conflict.

Keeping your selective outrage of violence focused narrowly on HAMAS is misplaced when only a small percentage of rockets are by HAMAS per Israel's own admission. For instance,

The Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center estimated that in 2007[34] the proportions of rockets fired from the Gaza Strip were:

34% – Palestinian Islamic Jihad (Al Quds)

22% – Hamas (Qassam)

8% – Fatah (Kafah

6% – Popular Resistance Committees (al Nasser)

30% – unknown

So now you're saying that because some Palestinians voted for HAMAS in the West Bank, the same HAMAS who was supported by Israel no less, the entire West Bank should be punished for that too? Is that what you're punishing Palestinians for this morning in your wet blanket of support of the criminal Israeli government? Voting for HAMAS? Doesn't matter who's in charge there either huh? You're all over the road and I don't know what you base any of your bizarre Zionist love affair on. You can't even describe how this affects your life in the UK Midlands but the resistance is more than just HAMAS.

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RoofGardener

Yamato, I wish you'd stick to one point at a time, instead of endlessly blurring and confusing them. Do you actually KNOW the history of the region, or are you just endlessly introducing and re-introducing random 'facts', continuously "baiting and switching", in order to perpetuate your tirade against Israel ?

I try and pin you down on one topic, and you just abandon it and fly off onto another topic, and then accuse ME of being "all over the road" ?

I discuss HAMAS because they are the de-jure leadership of the Palestinian People (though - after the intervention of the USA and EU, not necessarily the de facto leadership outside of Gaza). They came into power gradually after the Muslim Brotherhood finally took a reality-check, and realised that FATAH in general, and the PLO in particular, where being held up as symbols of corruption and failure, and that the Palestinians where drifting out of their control. Hey Presto and Allez Oooop - HAMAS was pulled out of the Hat as the 'peoples party'.

When HAMAS retreated into Gaza and began their sectarian bloodbath against FATAH members, journalists, and Anybody Who Looked At Them In A Funny Way, they took responibility for the Security of Gaza, and all military functions therein. If Al Quada, Islamic Jihad, or the Boy Scouts Movement launch missiles at Israel, then HAMAS has to take responsibility. With Power comes Responsibility.

Imagine if a group of Jewish Settlers launched rockets into Hebron, and the Israeli government did nothing to stop it. Would you blame the settlers, or the Israeli Government. Probably a little of both ? Well, the same applies in Gaza.

As for 'punishing the West Bank' ... I don't think I suggested any such thing, did I ?

Now, will you respond to THIS ?

You continuously use pejorative adjectives when you refer to the Israeli Government.

It's almost a form of tourettes: you can't say "The Israeli Government" without inserting the pejorative "Criminal" or "Apartheid" or whatever.

But you never do this with HAMAS, or the PLO ?

Why IS that ? Why the special treatment for one side ?

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