College degree versus trade skills

[Frank Merton]

I know a lot of people dislike it when Mexicans cross the border and work American jobs, but if Americans

aren't going to fill those jobs just because they feel it's beneath them then let them come. My experience

around them is they are good workers and respectful. At least the one's I know anyway.

People are the same everywhere, even though different.

[Jeremiah65]

I think...in our new modern age of technology and information...that colleges and trade schools beat the dead horse a little too long. The education needs to be more specifically focused on that particular subject and the amount of time and cost reduced.

People need to get the basics and the background so they have a clue what is going on and then business needs to take them in as apprentices for on the job training. That makes the most sense to me.

I understand why in college you have to take a lot of "other' things...that good old idea of a well rounded and educated person...but with information now at your fingertips, it seems reasonable that some of that stuff could go by the wayside and lessen the hours and costs of attendance. I like to think the purpose of education is to teach you "how" to learn...so I think some things are unnecessary in this day and age...an opinion.

[Gromdor]

A lot of companies don't want to take on the expense of training or apprenticeships. They would prefer that the employees acquired the skills before hand at a college or trade school. I can understand the hesitation spend the expense to train someone when there is a good chance they will leave after gaining the skills for greener pastures.

[Jeremiah65]

A lot of companies don't want to take on the expense of training or apprenticeships. They would prefer that the employees acquired the skills before hand at a college or trade school. I can understand the hesitation spend the expense to train someone when there is a good chance they will leave after gaining the skills for greener pastures.

Well I know, you're right...it has "always" been that way....unless said employer/trainer/teacher was the only game in town, which sometimes they are and sometimes they are not.

The best way to combat the "greener pastures" scenario is frequent reviews of said employee...if they are progressing well, pay them a smidgeon more...if you don't reward them for their efforts and progress, yes...they will leave for $0.50 and hour or so.

[Gunn]

A lot of companies don't want to take on the expense of training or apprenticeships. They would prefer that the employees acquired the skills before hand at a college or trade school. I can understand the hesitation spend the expense to train someone when there is a good chance they will leave after gaining the skills for greener pastures.

Yeah but the problem with that is, employees don't really get all that much hands-on-training while in college or trade school. Mostly just book smarts. So the employer ends up training them anyway. Especially if a employer has a certain way they want the employee to perform a certain method in doing something and not necessarily by the book.

Employers are just kidding themselves if they really think that. Nothing beats years of hands-on-training with real work in a business environment. I mean I could read and study everything about welding and tell you all about it, but if you asked me to perform a perfect weld on something, it would probably be a shoty job or a kinda of halfass job to where it might break, because I haven't gained enough experience in welding things together. Guess what? That's where the employer comes in training or retraining.

[Thanato]

I'm debating changing trades in the Military so that when I get out I can actually work and do a job. I'm thinking Material Technician. Welding, fabricating, sowing, autonomy repair.

[Gromdor]

I'm debating changing trades in the Military so that when I get out I can actually work and do a job. I'm thinking Material Technician. Welding, fabricating, sowing, autonomy repair.

That is actually a very wise move. I took advantage of the educational benefits while I was in the military and chose a career field that I thought would translate to a decent civilian sector job. Combat rifleman is nice and what not but unless you are looking to be a security guard, you're not going to go far with it post military.

[White Crane Feather]

Well if you want to work for a cutting edge corporation, you will most likely need a degree.

Trade guys with the right company makes tons of cash. The problem is if there is work. This is dictated by the economy. A few years back the trade guys were shaking in their boots because projects just fell off the board. Still many of it made it through just fine.

I do think trade skills are not given enough credit. Often they are awesome lifelong jobs where as people with degrees jump around a lot and are highly sensitive to economics changes.

But getting a job out if college is not that hard. They key is what you are actually there to do. Many college students just go to school and party. These are the ones that complain after they get out of school they can't make more than 30k a year. 23-25 years olds generally have pretty high expectations and entitlement issues. The smart ones take internships every semester, then they have contacts and relationships after they graduate. The more smarter ones have a solid plan for their own business that they have thoroughly researched to be fairly immune to economic fluctuations, then they work long enough to start it while sacrificing the things that everyone else is spending money on. The super smart ones find a way to stay in school through masters and even phd.s Why? Because there is always some gullible 18 year old and his parents that thinks college is always the answer even without thought and planning. Then you can have your TAs teach them while you work on the next google

The bottom line is that success takes hard work and commitment. People operate on a bell curve of willingness to so this. most are average, some are not. If you operate on the left side of the bell curve then don't expect to be successful unless you are just lucky. If you operate on the right expect the left to complain about your success. Yes yes yes I know there are people that THINK the work just as hard, but usually upon a closer look they don't really.

This isn't even a bad thing. A choice to have more free time and less stress can be a very good and honest choice as long as you realize this. You could have busted your ass for that professional degree and spent long hours kissing ass up that corporate latter. You could have gotten the welding certificate and drove 100 mikes every day to job sites.... If you screwed around when you were young and didn't want to put effort into your future because you think your sleep is really that important don't complain about your income.

The only people that deserve a little extra are people with disabilities and those young people that grew up in harsh environments where the opportunities to learn about their opportunities simply was non existent.

[Rafterman]

It's a very complex issue. A lot of it really depends on what you want to do, what's your skill set, your intelligence, and (probably more than anything) your work ethic.

If your goal is to learn a trade and make it a career, you've got to be prepared to go against what your school counselors, peers, perhaps your parents, and even society as a whole will tell you. I graduated from a rural agricultural high school in Mississippi in 1986 and even back then the "Vo-tech kids" we're viewed as failures (odd for a school whose founding mission was agricultural training). They were the dope heads, the problem students, many were special education students, etc. Basically the administration viewed them as "ditch diggers" and they spent the time and resources on those of us who were "college material". Unfortunately this mindset has probably only gotten more prevalent in the past 30 years.

But you know what, many of my college educated friends from high school have **** jobs and really no career to speak of. Meanwhile, some of my friends who were the "Vo-tech kids" have gone on to have fantastic careers in their fields and are "living the dream" as they say.

Even as someone who has spent his entire career in higher education, I have a difficult time with the idea that college is for everyone - particularly given the costs involved. My personal belief is that very few 17 and 18 year olds have any idea what they want to do with their lives particularly when missteps can cost upwards of $45-$50,000 a year. Now that's not true for everyone. Some know what they want to do from the time they are young children and I don't have an issue with those kids going straight into college. I've been fortunate to work in the #1 and #2 undergraduate architecture programs in my career and I can attest that the vast majority of those students knew they wanted to be architects at very young ages.

The other issue is what majors are college students pursuing. The dreamer in me says that it's a beautiful thing to pursue something like a liberal arts education and that learning and knowledge is its own reward. But the pragmatist in me says you've got to get a degree in a field where you can find a good, well-paying job. Gone are the days that doors to success are thrown open for you simply for being a "Middlebury Man" (insert whatever school you like here). I currently work at one of the top polytechnic universities in the world and the annual cost to attend is approaching $70,000. Now very few students actually pay this amount to attend, but it's still not an inexpensive proposition. But you know what, even at the bottom of the downturn, our kids were still getting top paying jobs in the technical fields. Now that things have rebounded a bit, most of our graduates who want to enter the workforce are entertaining multiple offers and starting salaries are averaging in the $65-$70K range plus bonus. And some of our computer science graduates are looking at starting salaries well into six figures.

So again, it's a complex issue without an easy solution. Personally, I would like to see a de-stigmatizing of trade education and just a more supportive educational system when it comes to students being able to follow their passions.

[Jeremiah65]

I'm not sure when trades and skills were downplayed...I'm guessing about the time that "Wall Street" hit the theater and brainwashed people that getting dirty or sweating was a "bad" way to earn a living.

I can attest that the market for skills and trades is volatile...it goes up and down...when the economy is stable....trades do well...when the economy is down or questionable...trades don't do so well...but they do survive. It depends on what the trade/skill is and how it can be practically applied to meet "needs" and not just wants...i.e. A welder can weld beams for a new building someone wants...they can also repair farm equipment that someone "needs"...

[+DieChecker]

I've had to hire people in the past and I usually just look at the degree as that person being "trainable". Someone with an Associates degree spent the time and effort necessary to get that degree, and that reflects on that person that they can finish something and are willing to learn. I'd argue the same about a trade school education, I suppose. But someone just walking in off the street really has nothing to say they are trainable, or dependable.

I have heard it on several boards over the last few years about college graduates having to take crappy jobs that have nothing to do with their degree and being straddled with debt that they can barely pay and afford to live. They cry to the heavens to get the minimum wage increased because...apparently...they listened to the liberal garbage from their high school councilor that said "You go to college and get a degree in something you love and you'll be a huge success"...

If you think it is bad in the US, go research the unemployment rate of those under 35 with advanced degrees in Spain, Italy and Greece. There are way, way, way too many overly educated people over there, with no where for them to go.

I also tend to agree that in the US it has become fashionable for people to go to college and get a degree is something they "like", as in a hobby. But then when they graduate they find that there are 200 people from nationwide trying to get 3 positions that came open. And so they end up working as secretaries, waiters, and other low wage jobs. It is not fashionable right now to plan for your career before starting college. So is it any wonder that so many people go 4 years and then can't get a job?

It seems though...no one wants to do this kind of work anymore...and then the snobby white folks will complain about all the immigrants taking the jobs...well...someone has to do this stuff. Maybe if the snobby white parents would let their kids know a dirty sweaty job that pays well is also considered a success and NO...you don't always have to go to college...we wouldn't e in this pickle.

Too many people consider such positions to be Beneath Them.

I have a friend who just got employment after almost 2 years of unemployment. He honestly believed he could not do any job other then be a computer programmer in one specific programming language. He instead decided to live off his 401K, that he'd been building for 15 years. And not that 401k is gone and he's probably not going to be able to retire. But Heyyyy.... I was a good two years and that retirement is well down the road. Myself, I would have been working at McDonalds, or a gas station, or whatever I could find. Then kept looking, and moved up to the better job as they were offered.

I know a lot of people dislike it when Mexicans cross the border and work American jobs, but if Americans

aren't going to fill those jobs just because they feel it's beneath them then let them come. My experience around them is they are good workers and respectful. At least the one's I know anyway.

I used to work at a tire recycling plant where we ground up tires and turned the rubber into truck mats and playground flooring. I was in charge of development of the playground flooring production process, and had to hire people to do the actual physical labor to make the floor tiles. I hired probably 50% Mexicans, and 50% whites. But it was the Mexicans who stayed on and the whites who mostly quit. The work ethic of our forefathers seems to be thinning out.

[Whisperer]

I hired University help for the first time in 30 odd years as I tend to go for folks with experience, guess what, they all failed me...again...

Lesson learned.

Moral, always hire the best suited for the job and forget helping out struggling students who cant be bothered gaining world experience in basics like showing up for work in time, actually doing the job required, completing targets etc....

[andy4]

I think some Americans feel as if they are over qualified for jobs that takes little skill and or learning to do, so they leave the job quickly or don't take it seriously. I have worked with people from other countries before, mostly Mexicans and Latin Americans, and they work very well and hard the whole day. Meanwhile the Americans who take the job are there for 2 days and quit. I can see why immigrant labor is on the rise, they don't complain, show up and work hard.