Suspended for refusing to pledge allegiance

[Bendy Demon]

When I was in school we had to say the pledge, at least until the sixth grade. It never meant anything to me except that we had to do this silly thing every day. To me it was just words, I did it because I had to but beyond that it had no meaning to me.

It's like being forced to say daily meal prayers, you do it (if you are a kid) because you have to or be punished somehow but for many it means nothing and continues to mean nothing when not doing it is met with punishments.

Violence accomplishes nothing except create more hatred, fear and more violence. Punching the kid because he didn't chant loudly enough says something about that person and it is not good, noble or admirable.

I'm curious. Legally, do minors have first amendment rights on school property? I'm finding conflicting information on this.

No. "Rights" only exist when someone else says so.

[Frank Merton]

Children really have one important right -- to be well educated in a safe and healthy environment. To try to indoctrinate them with standards of patriotism and moral rectitude may sound like a good idea but I doubt there is really any way to do it. Genes and karma will tell. Enforced participation in rituals is certainly not going to work, and while I am at it I would not advise teaching them mythic history that glorifies the nation as opposed to others. A few will buy it but will come to great disappointment when they learn the truth.

[Agent0range]

It seems more likely that YOU are the rug, obeying any rule the powers-that-be put forth.

If they pass a law saying anybody assisting a slave in escaping is committing a crime, you obey that law with no questions asked.

If they pass a law saying anybody seeing his brother smoke pot must turn his brother in for that crime against the state, you turn in your brother AND your friend who does not turn in his brother.

Thank you for demonstrating the irrational and immoral results that can come from illegitimate law and brainwashed citizens.

Really BR? That's why I say the pledge, or stand for the national anthem? Get out of here with your bull****. I am for the pledge because I have seen many of my good friends die with that flag on their shoulder. I am a grown man, it is not a rule for me to say the pledge or stand for the national anthem, so your whole comment makes no sense..AS USUAL.

[Agent0range]

I'm curious. Legally, do minors have first amendment rights on school property? I'm finding conflicting information on this.

Of course they do. But, don't confuse the meaning of the first amendment. In school, you have the right to call your teacher a piece of ****...that doesn't mean their aren't consequences. The first amendment does not free you from the consequences of what you say, only from being prosecuted in a court of law for what you say.

[Stellar]

I'm from the US, and being an American Citizen, I think he should've been patriotic enough to stand up and recite the Pledge...regardless of how ticked he is @ our Govt.

The fact that our Govt. is doing a very poor job right now is a completely separate issue, and has nothing to do w/ being patriotic. He should find a better way to protest, maybe march on Washington, or write letters to his Congressmen, ETC.

I'm not against freedom of speech, but he needs to direct his anger/frustration towards those responsible for causing it.

(As opposed to protesting school policies.)

Perhaps he should protest bs school policies which attempt to force him to give a pledge he doesn't want to give.

Just because it's school "policy" doesn't mean it's correct.

[Stellar]

He can protest any way he likes, but I don't have to agree w/ it.

It's not an obligation, it's a privilege. Yes, the same goes for the Texas Pledge.

Send him to Nigeria, or Zimbabwe for a few yrs...then he can see what a really messed-up country looks like.

In the US, you can be prosecuted for burning the American Flag.

It ceases to be a "privilege" when you punish someone for not doing it. At that point, it becomes an obligation.

[Stellar]

Every school I ever heard of has a booklet of rules and regulations. If, in that book of rules, it states that all students must stand and recite the pledge, then suspension is warranted. If it is not in that book, then the school is wrong. Institutions are allowed to make their own rules and follow them. IMO, it's a stupid rule. If the student wants to change the rule, he should go about doing that.

How on earth people think this impinges on his right to free speech is beyond me. They did not force him to his feet at gunpoint, have him arrested or beaten until he spat out the pledge in fear of his life. He exercised his free speech by sitting there and not saying the pledge.

Freedom of speech does NOT equal freedom from consequences. Blows my mind when it seems so many other people think it means you can say (or not say in this case) whatever you want without any consequences whatsoever.

What a giant load of crap that post is. That's like arguing that throwing someone in jail for criticizing a politician is not at all against freedom of speech --- because freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.

[Frank Merton]

If the first amendment were taken as seriously as the gun nuts take the second, there would be no libel laws, no copyrights, no smut control even to children, no state secrets or military secrets, not even restrictions on making a lot of noise in the middle of the night in suburban neighborhoods.

The amendments make no such exceptions.

[Gromdor]

You forgot possessing child porn, shouting fire in movie theaters, and slander.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Really BR? That's why I say the pledge, or stand for the national anthem? Get out of here with your bull****. I am for the pledge because I have seen many of my good friends die with that flag on their shoulder. I am a grown man, it is not a rule for me to say the pledge or stand for the national anthem, so your whole comment makes no sense..AS USUAL.

You know how we in this backward and somewhat surreal nation pay tribute to those who fought and died for us and our freedoms?

A game of Football and free drinks in the pub for anyone who fought.

Which one of these supports the IDEALS of the people who fought and died better, hmmm ....

[Sakari]

Really BR? That's why I say the pledge, or stand for the national anthem? Get out of here with your bull****. I am for the pledge because I have seen many of my good friends die with that flag on their shoulder. I am a grown man, it is not a rule for me to say the pledge or stand for the national anthem, so your whole comment makes no sense..AS USUAL.

Agent0range,

I could quote all of your replies on this, and say, without a doubt, I agree with you 100%. And have about the same situations as you.

This really p***es me off. If it happened at any Schools I went to, that kid would have had his ass kicked. And, if I were his father, he would have his ass kicked. Maybe even a few visits to the local VA Hospital to learn some things.

[Professor Buzzkill]

You mad bro?

Another non violent protester who should have been punched. Who'd have thought

[Bendy Demon]

Before someone starts rallying for violence against another (especially minors) because they are not thinking the way you ordered them to or not plodding along with the rest of the little marchers, make sure you too, are willing to have your face punched, ass kicked and lynched for silently protesting and daring to go against peer pressure.

It's always easier to punch a kid of any age for daring to say "No, thanks" but when you say the same just make sure you are willing to be beaten and assaulted over it.

The school just wanted to make an example out of the kid to frighten the other kids into submission. Can't have anyone thinking for themselves and asking questions that few are willing to even consider, right?

Edited May 19, 2014 by Ryu

[Agent0range]

Before someone starts rallying for violence against another (especially minors) because they are not thinking the way you ordered them to or not plodding along with the rest of the little marchers, make sure you too, are willing to have your face punched, ass kicked and lynched for silently protesting and daring to go against peer pressure.

It's always easier to punch a kid of any age for daring to say "No, thanks" but when you say the same just make sure you are willing to be beaten and assaulted over it.

The school just wanted to make an example out of the kid to frighten the other kids into submission. Can't have anyone thinking for themselves and asking questions that few are willing to even consider, right?

I clearly said if I was a kid in his school, I would punch him in the face. The kid has NO CLUE what he is standing up for. If you are against the way your government is acting, THAT IS ALL THE MORE REASON TO PLEDGE TO THE FLAG! Pledge to the way the country is supposed to be. Pledge to the way it was meant to be! No one is asking you to pledge allegiance to the government. Only to your country! If you are willing to stand up to your government, you clearly love your country, so why WOULDN'T you pledge the flag?

This kid is clearly an idiot looking for attention. End of story. And, I will not take back what I said. I would punch him in the face, IF I was a student.

[Sakari]

Before someone starts rallying for violence against another (especially minors) because they are not thinking the way you ordered them to or not plodding along with the rest of the little marchers, make sure you too, are willing to have your face punched, ass kicked and lynched for silently protesting and daring to go against peer pressure.

It's always easier to punch a kid of any age for daring to say "No, thanks" but when you say the same just make sure you are willing to be beaten and assaulted over it.

The school just wanted to make an example out of the kid to frighten the other kids into submission. Can't have anyone thinking for themselves and asking questions that few are willing to even consider, right?

We are talking one topic here. And on this one topic, as I said, if this happened at a School I attended, his ass would have been handed to him.

But again, I lived here :

[Stellar]

Agent0range,

I could quote all of your replies on this, and say, without a doubt, I agree with you 100%. And have about the same situations as you.

This really p***es me off. If it happened at any Schools I went to, that kid would have had his ass kicked. And, if I were his father, he would have his ass kicked. Maybe even a few visits to the local VA Hospital to learn some things.

Incredible.

[Stellar]

I clearly said if I was a kid in his school, I would punch him in the face. The kid has NO CLUE what he is standing up for. If you are against the way your government is acting, THAT IS ALL THE MORE REASON TO PLEDGE TO THE FLAG! Pledge to the way the country is supposed to be. Pledge to the way it was meant to be! No one is asking you to pledge allegiance to the government. Only to your country! If you are willing to stand up to your government, you clearly love your country, so why WOULDN'T you pledge the flag?

This kid is clearly an idiot looking for attention. End of story. And, I will not take back what I said. I would punch him in the face, IF I was a student.

Maybe they feel the flag represents their government.

[Agent0range]

Maybe they feel the flag represents their government.

Like I said..he has no clue what he is standing up for.

[Likely Guy]

Some atheists have a problem with the words "under God" contained in the pledge (which was only added in 1954). Do they deserve an ass kicking or face punching as well?

[Sakari]

Some atheists have a problem with the words "under God" contained in the pledge (which was only added in 1954). Do they deserve an ass kicking or face punching as well?

Again, different topic......Your reaching.

I am not religious, and I have no problem saying the Pledge.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Sakari

[Sakari]

Incredible.

Nope, very proud to be American.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

I don't get the pledging alegiance TO A FLAG.

The nation, sure.

The ideals expressed in the pledge hell yes.

A flag though?

[Likely Guy]

Again, different topic......Your reaching.

I am not religious, and I have no problem saying the Pledge.

I thought that the topic was "Suspended for refusing to pledge allegiance"? What difference should it make what the reason was? Would you really feel any different if it was based on religious grounds?

One other point, going back to the article in the OP;

Another neighbor, Dean Reese, said punishing Michalec wasn't a good move. "In a free country", the veteran said "the teen should be able to say whatever he wants."

"The kid's well-spoken and he's well-informed," said Reese. "It's not like he's ignorant, he's not doing it to make people mad. He's doing it because of his personal beliefs."

(Bolding mine so as not to be missed.)

Here's a veteran who feels that there was no intended disrepect.

[Likely Guy]

I don't get the pledging alegiance TO A FLAG.

The nation, sure.

The ideals expressed in the pledge hell yes.

A flag though?

It was originally a pledge to the flag but was later changed to include "and to the republic which it represents" (or something to that effect. I'm sure someone will correct me if my wording is wrong.)

eta: This is also why Jehovah's Witnesses have a problem as well. They're not into the whole 'idolatry thing'.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Likely Guy

[Wickian]

The main dividing point between arguments seems to be this. Do you pledge allegiance to the Country, or to the Government? Many people don't see the difference between the two anymore, so begin to feel dislike for one because of the other.