How can anyone believe in God?

[Frank Merton]

Michael archangel is the one I saw

How did you know? I thought he was the OT Jesus part of the Trinity.

[Davros of Skaro]

Michael archangel is the one I saw

Which was a product of your imagination.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Michael archangel is the one I saw

Did you ask him for ID? Did he tell you he was an archangel. Things of the spirit realm are not always what the appear to be.

[redhen]

I was born and raised Catholic, both my parents are Catholic and all of their families are Catholic. I went to church every sunday and to Catholic school so it's safe to say that my view of religion is heavily biased.

All your questions have been addressed. Mostly, the answer is free will. You never studied any apologetics?

The issue you didn't mention though is the problem of natural evil, this is in my opinion the strongest argument against the Abrahamic God.

[stormbay]

I hear this one a lot and it sounds good - very responsible. The problem I have with it is two fold. Human nature is apt to evil - anyone who denies this must support that denial with examples of how mankind has "solved" the problem of hate and destruction of his neighbor. Second, you over simplify the teachings about Christ and like many you seem to do so in a way that disrespects people of faith - casting them as childish or simple minded. Some of the best minds of any time have been believers. The issue the OP has seems to be an old one: if one cannot PROVE the existence of God then God does not exist. Perhaps he'd care to explain how he can disprove God's existence? To explain who or what "God" is to the many who look to the Creator for strength in evil times? He mentions being raised in a single denomination - insulated by it in fact. I grew up never even hearing of the Catholic church - went to Sunday school and church semi regularly until I was a teen and drifted away to do my own thing until I was in my thirties. For me, faith gets down to the impossibility of the precision of the universe - it's laws and structure - being RANDOM. Those who deny and scoff at a Creator need to answer that point. The other is thing I cannot get past is how a text written and preserved over several thousand years can have predictions that are actually playing out in our day. Those who reject God are simply in denial imo. That's okay too. No anger from me over it I have no need to condemn anyone for their inability to believe what I find inescapable.

“Human nature is apt to evil”

This is completely the opposite to the historical facts, it is only ideological humans who are easily described as evil. There is not one day, week, decade, century, or history, during the era of the god cult which has shown any from of compassion care or ethical love towards life on the planet. It's a war on everything from these primitive minds.

The facts are, since the invention of the god cult, which revolves around a mythical self described war god and one of many gods yahweh. Every one of the stories of all 3 factions of the cult, judaism, christianity and islam, have histories which consist of nothing but suppression, elitism, genocide, never ending war, suppression, torture and degenerate abuse of all life.

Believers in god have extremely infantile minds revolving around egocentric psychopathy, when it comes to preachers, pathological psychopathy and chronic psychosis are the norm.

There is a simple way of proving the existence of a god and the veracity of god cult claims, historical fact and that is indisputable. Not one claim put forward by the cult for the existence of of yahweh has been proved, not one, the facts are the opposite. The bibles, koran, torah, are all figments of imagination and have no form of proof to support them.

The most glaring evidence is the fact Hebrews had no written language until the 3^rd century CE. All the depicted events attributed to yahweh have been scientifically proved not to have happened as described or in the time lines. In relation to the supposed jesus, nothing fits with the claims. Herod was dead before the event, there was no roman legal control over Herods kingdom, as Herod was a friend and ally of Rome. The only romans troops where the imperial guard for the roman ambassador.

There are more than 130 writers of the time in the area and 35 writers in Herods kingdom capital, none of them mentions any events surrounding this person, or his existence. The bibles and torah were written hundreds of year later to the events and what they claim as being part of the bible with the discovery of the psalms, are actually copies of folk stories and writings from the nag hamadi local library.

“For me, faith gets down to the impossibility of the precision of the universe - it's laws and structure - being RANDOM. Those who deny and scoff at a Creator need to answer that point.”

The universe doesn't operate randomly, that's ridiculous. Our viewable universe operates in what can only be called controlled evolution, What we see it the interaction between different dimensional realities that surround and are a part of our universe, which to those stuck in fairy land delusions, class as god controlled.

The belief in a god restricts people from understanding and evolving, ideology is pure deluded fantasy and the results are seen in the state of our planet. When you have such a proud, dedicated god fearing country like the USA, which has the highest murder and incarceration rates on the planet. Then you align it with other god controlled countries of every description and you have scenarios of corruption, suppression, violence, murder, elitism and degenerate approaches to life.

When you look at the few countries and societies not control by a god or other ideologies, you find very safe, peaceful and caring societies. Everything god cult followers claim, is wrong and when you believe in a pack of lies, your entire life becomes a lie. As you have to lie again and again to support the unsupportable claims of a primitive mythical violent suppressive cult.

[Frank Merton]

Free will seems to me a difficult idea. As far as I can tell everything that happens either has a prior cause or is some sort of random event. In the first case it is not "free" and in the second it is not "will."

We have a sense that we choose what we do, but when we think closely we realize there is almost always something that caused us to do it -- a desire or instinct or some aspect of our personality or an emotion.

[Frank Merton]

The story of the Catholic church and most other Christians starts in the Garden of Eden. There a talking snake (later -- much later -- identified as the Persian equivalent of Satan) persuades Eve to eat of the fruit of a tree God has said they must not eat. He cleverly takes God's own words about knowledge to persuade Eve to eat it and then persuade her husband to do likewise. They were both deceived by the Serpent, much superior intelligence.

Regardless of the fact that they were deceived, God nevertheless punishes them harshly. He puts them under sentence of death and expels them so they have to work for a living, and to boot makes childbirth very painful. He also puts enmity between the Serpent and the woman, whatever the hell that means.

Further, God pronounces the curse of original sin upon all their descendants, as though they had anything to do with it. (Kinda the equivalent of people blaming modern Germans for the atrocities of the Nazis).

Well to escape this curse, it turns out, requires a sacrifice of a "perfect man" and since all mankind is under this curse there is no such thing, so God himself splits into three parts and one part comes down to the earth and after various adventures is crucified and this human sacrifice of this perfect man lifts the curse, but not for everyone.

Exactly what is needed to take advantage of this sacrifice is a little vague. You have to believe, but that isn't quite enough. You also have to be properly baptized and live a good life and have obtained forgiveness for all your sins. Otherwise, for the vast majority of mankind, there is Hell.

Although God is portrayed as being just, somehow the idea that people who don't believe this outrageous story spend eternity in Hell strikes me as a huge injustice, just one of many in this story.

I just can't for the life of me see how anyone can buy it, even if they were indoctrinated into it as children.

[stormbay]

Free will is the ability to use rational logic in making decisions and directions in your life. There are no random events, they all have long term causes and a free thinker acts on that understanding to make and create decisions for their future. It's the ability to evolve with the dimensional reality we inhabit in a small way and adds to positive cause and effect.

Ideology is the complete opposite, it revolves around fear, superstition, infantile psychopathy and empty hope, propped up with endless denial of reality, deranged suppression, never ending violence, destruction and slaughter of life. Preach love and caring, but will kill, lie, deceive and destroy to support primitive deluded fantasy. Ideological clones have a sense of choosing what they do, but the facts are they are totally enslaved, controlled and cloned into denial of fact logic rational understanding, care for life and the earth. Their entire lives revolves around deceiving everyone they ever meet and yet live and preach the most hypocritical lives possible. Hence the reason why a majority are medicated to the eye balls, never met a free thinker who had to be medicated or drugged to cope with every day.

What you think and act on today, is what you will be in the future, so if we act to cope with what is coming, when it gets here we are already planned past it, so create your future within the bounds the bigger picture of circumstance has upon you. A well planned, varying, changing and evolving life, is so much better and responsible than one which revolves around a mythical hope, making every day of your life a repeat of a repeat of a repeat. When you get to the end, nothing has changed since you started to believe, your still got no evidence to support your nothing belief, just death like everyone else.

If there were a consciousness after death, because there could never be a physicality, then god believers will not see the reality as all their minds will consist of, is delusion and fear. That's how they react approaching death, relatives don't see it, but those caring for them do. Most suddenly have lots of unanswered questions to late to answer and to scared to admit to those close to them for fear of the usual religious apologetics, denial and outrage.

Only programmed ideological clones live on a merry go round inside a revolving door mental complex, that's how the people of goc and other idelogies spend their lives, with no free will in any way.Free thinkers live in such a way, so their foot print on this planet has the least detrimental effect possible, whilst still evolving technologically, biologically and psychologically. It's called conscious evolution.</p>

Edited May 26, 2014 by stormbay

[maddie.rose23]

And the most awful of the fact about religion is that most church - goers or people of a religion do NOT try to see past their 'God granted words' or something like that. The only reason I believe a little bit is for the fact that I am afraid of what the actual after life is. What happens when we are gone? When the light finally /does/ leave our eyes? Human nature requires a path to follow, something that is wired into our very existence. I do not know for sure if God is real or that He will come one day to save us, yada, yada. But I do believe in a higher power. Something, someone.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Free will is the ability to use rational logic in making decisions and directions in your life. There are no random events, they all have long term causes and a free thinker acts on that understanding to make and create decisions for their future. It's the ability to evolve with the dimensional reality we inhabit in a small way and adds to positive cause and effect.

Ideology is the complete opposite, it revolves around fear, superstition, infantile psychopathy and empty hope, propped up with endless denial of reality, deranged suppression, never ending violence, destruction and slaughter of life. Preach love and caring, but will kill, lie, deceive and destroy to support primitive deluded fantasy. Ideological clones have a sense of choosing what they do, but the facts are they are totally enslaved, controlled and cloned into denial of fact logic rational understanding, care for life and the earth. Their entire lives revolves around deceiving everyone they ever meet and yet live and preach the most hypocritical lives possible. Hence the reason why a majority are medicated to the eye balls, never met a free thinker who had to be medicated or drugged to cope with every day.

What you think and act on today, is what you will be in the future, so if we act to cope with what is coming, when it gets here we are already planned past it, so create your future within the bounds the bigger picture of circumstance has upon you. A well planned, varying, changing and evolving life, is so much better and responsible than one which revolves around a mythical hope, making every day of your life a repeat of a repeat of a repeat. When you get to the end, nothing has changed since you started to believe, your still got no evidence to support your nothing belief, just death like everyone else.

If there were a consciousness after death, because there could never be a physicality, then god believers will not see the reality as all their minds will consist of, is delusion and fear. That's how they react approaching death, relatives don't see it, but those caring for them do. Most suddenly have lots of unanswered questions to late to answer and to scared to admit to those close to them for fear of the usual religious apologetics, denial and outrage.

Only programmed ideological clones live on a merry go round inside a revolving door mental complex, that's how the people of goc and other idelogies spend their lives, with no free will in any way.Free thinkers live in such a way, so their foot print on this planet has the least detrimental effect possible, whilst still evolving technologically, biologically and psychologically. It's called conscious evolution.</p>

This is the second time you've referred to God-believers as holding an "infantile psychopathy", and that's just in this thread. Normally I'd suggest right now that regardless of personal beliefs, the site rules require you to respect what others believe, even if you don't share it. However, going by everything you've written in your posts, it's obvious to any reading that you have absolutely no idea what believers think or feel that it's better to just leave it - the parody of belief you've presented is enough to show everyone else how clueless you are as to what believers think about their religious ideologies.

Edit: I was just reading another thread in which you share experience of being locked in a form of "church prison" and beaten until you hopefully submitted to their will. First, I'd suggest seeking legal counsel for illegal actions taken against you (it may stop similar things happening to others who went through what you did). Secondly, I'd point out here that your experiences are an EXTREME MINORITY, and to judge all believers based on your unfortunate experience will (unfortunately for you) simply lead to people such as myself dismissing your views as totally unrepresentative of religious ideology.

Judging majorities by the actions of minorities tends to do that. Just saying

Edited May 26, 2014 by Paranoid Android

[Davros of Skaro]

And the most awful of the fact about religion is that most church - goers or people of a religion do NOT try to see past their 'God granted words' or something like that. The only reason I believe a little bit is for the fact that I am afraid of what the actual after life is. What happens when we are gone? When the light finally /does/ leave our eyes? Human nature requires a path to follow, something that is wired into our very existence. I do not know for sure if God is real or that He will come one day to save us, yada, yada. But I do believe in a higher power. Something, someone.

Did you ever see blinders on a Horse?They keep Horses from getting spooked, or distracted, and eyes forward on the path.That's what believers have on, but in words to keep their mind's kept in check.

If there is a God?Then it's wise for not getting involved with Humanity, and to let us figure things out ourselves.

Just look at the Archeology that shows the Old Testament is mostly made up.

If a person tries to leave this world better than it was coming in, then they have nothing to worry about.

[freetoroam]

Michael archangel is the one I saw

Are you sure? because there are quite a few, its just you give the impression here you thought there was only one:

post 49: I have met archangel himself

here are some more,.have a butchers through this lot:

http://www.angelsbysharae.com/ArchangelsList.html

[Davros of Skaro]

This is the second time you've referred to God-believers as holding an "infantile psychopathy", and that's just in this thread. Normally I'd suggest right now that regardless of personal beliefs, the site rules require you to respect what others believe, even if you don't share it. However, going by everything you've written in your posts, it's obvious to any reading that you have absolutely no idea what believers think or feel that it's better to just leave it - the parody of belief you've presented is enough to show everyone else how clueless you are as to what believers think about their religious ideologies.

Stormbay looks to have some insight to me.

I welcome Stormbay to share more.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Stormbay looks to have some insight to me.

I welcome Stormbay to share more.

I welcome it, idiotic parody of what we believers think allows genuine people seeking new perspectives to see the non-believer at their most... juvenile.

[Frank Merton]

You are being unusually intolerant yourself tonight, Paranoid. I tend to perceive a lot of believers that way too. I think most non-believers do, because of the really juvenile arguments you get all the time trying to defend what really is just patent nonsense.

[Davros of Skaro]

I welcome it, idiotic parody of what we believers think allows genuine people seeking new perspectives to see the non-believer at their most... juvenile.

No...This is most juvenile.

[+Link of Hyrule]

You are being unusually intolerant yourself tonight, Paranoid. I tend to perceive a lot of believers that way too. I think most non-believers do, because of the really juvenile arguments you get all the time trying to defend what really is just patent nonsense.

So believers are infantile psychopaths who are slaves to psychopathic tendencies and a predisposition to be "medicated to the eyeballs" (source, please), all the while hypocritically preaching love while slaughtering innocents (remember, this isn't a "the extremists act such....", but rather "this is the status quo").

My recent edit to my previous post may shed light on why Stormbay feels the way he/she does. I'm simply sharing why he/she is completely misrepresenting believer pov's, and thus why any genuine seeker of new ideas might legitimately laugh away such extreme hatred.

[GoldenWolf]

I welcome it, idiotic parody of what we believers think allows genuine people seeking new perspectives to see the non-believer at their most... juvenile.

Insults can go both ways:

Matthew 18:3:

King James 2000 Bible

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[+Link of Hyrule]

No...This is most juvenile.

Well you're right. SOMETHING in this post was juvenile, but it didn't come from my side. You may as well have linked that Comedy Central (I think it was them) clip about Terminator Jesus (still lol every time I watch it, fyi). Try understanding WHAT the imagery of the cross represents before linking to a video that completely contradicts standard interpretation!!!

[+Liquid Gardens]

I'm simply sharing why he/she is completely misrepresenting believer pov's, and thus why any genuine seeker of new ideas might legitimately laugh away such extreme hatred.

I don't think he/she is misrepresenting a believer's pov, he's sharing his opinion on what believer's are actually doing. Outside of the claim that I suspect is false about the relative degree of medication between believers and non-, and possibly his reference to 'believer's deceiving' (and that depends on the definition), all his statements are from his pov; I think most people understand that believers themselves think God's the best and all that. Whether he's being too disrespectful I don't know, I think that's a fuzzy and vague, and possibly unnecessary, rule in the first place.

As far as his possibly painting with far too wide a critical brush concerning believers, which I happen to agree with you on, let's keep in mind that the Bible isn't exactly known for it's precision with its sweeping characterizations either; I am a 'fool', and one of the swine to whom the pearls should not be cast before, etc.

[GoldenWolf]

No...This is most juvenile.

What a great role model huh?!?

[simplybill]

“Human nature is apt to evil”

This is completely the opposite to the historical facts, it is only ideological humans who are easily described as evil. There is not one day, week, decade, century, or history, during the era of the god cult which has shown any from of compassion care or ethical love towards life on the planet. It's a war on everything from these primitive minds.

Stormbay -

Then how do you explain the hospitals, such as: Lutheran Hospital, Mercy Hospital, Methodist Hospital, etc.

I don't recall ever having seen Athiest Hospital, Agnostic Hospital, New Age Hospital, etc.

Judeo-Christian culture actually works in real life, in every sense of the word. Athiesm, on the other hand, can only make gains by usurping those institutions that were established with the Judeo-Christian principles.

[Cherrypress]

I was born and raised Catholic, both my parents are Catholic and all of their families are Catholic. I went to church every sunday and to Catholic school so it's safe to say that my view of religion is heavily biased. However, that's not to say that I don't know about other religions, I do and a lot more than some people who claim to practice those religions. Anyhow my point being is that I firmly believe that all and that means ALL religions are corrupt, money making schemes that prey on ignorance and fear. Now some people may jump to the defence of the Buddhists, they believe in equality and peace, no they don't. The Dalai Lama has stated if he returns to Tibet then the people are his subjects and they should work to serve him. Does that sound like equality? The Sikhs carry around a knife that once drawn must not be sheathed unless it has spilt blood, the Jews persecute the Muslims, the Muslims persecute any non muslims and Christians persecute everyone else and try to convert them! Of course I'm talking about the fundamentalists and extremists here, not the every day folk who use God as a guide rather than the be all and end all.

So back to the title of the piece, how can anyone believe in God? Or Gods? For years I had it ingrained in me not to question the Bible and the Churches teachings but the second I started doing my own research then the facade started to crumble. I read about the Gnostic Gospels, I read about Josephus who describes Jesus as "Balding with a stooped back and hooked nose" and he was a contemperory so he should know a lot better than someone who never even met him. The council of Nicea, the vatican and the Nazi's, Mohammed the paedophile, the Koran dictating women are less than men, the many contradictions in the Bible, on and on it goes. If God is real and God exists he would've come down and told us all what the true religion is and how to behave. He couldn't stop doing it in the Torah and the Old Testament. He was forever interfering. So where is he now? The proof is in the pudding and sadly for all you believers out there, there is no proof. All these people who go around after a disaster praising God or Jesus for saving them forget one thing, if you believe in God then He caused the disaster in the first place! He was the one who destroyed your house and family. Think about it. If you believe in God then he is responsible for everything, if you don't believe you have nothing to fear.

Unfortunately many people still decide to view the world and the reality they are surrounded by from non factual concepts.. It's truly staggering how easily human beings align theirselves with a "belief" and then claim it to be true, based on little more then geographic exposure and dogma, wether it's about believing in ghosts or some sky fairy they always believe that they are backing whats right.. Hence the problem with belief in contrast to using actual provable fact to live your life by.. Ultimately This minor distinction negatively effects the world and others around them leading to wars, sexual intolerance, child genitle mutilation ect ect..

I always find it disturbing how quickly and easily people will quote those words " I believe because" I personally do not believe in anything I either know or I don't.. And just because I have a hunch about something due to whatever coincidental exposures I have come across in my life, I certainly wouldn't be egotistic enough to claim it as truth and fact like the typical religious mind does... Fortunately man kind is waking up and the bar of truth that we use to interpret our universe around us is getting better.. But we still have a long way to go..

[GoldenWolf]

Stormbay -

Then how do you explain the hospitals, such as: Lutheran Hospital, Mercy Hospital, Methodist Hospital, etc.

I don't recall ever having seen Athiest Hospital, Agnostic Hospital, New Age Hospital, etc.

Judeo-Christian culture actually works in real life, in every sense of the word. Athiesm, on the other hand, can only make gains by usurping those institutions that were established with the Judeo-Christian principles.

99% of the hospitals on this planet are not religious in nature.

[freetoroam]

Stormbay -

Then how do you explain the hospitals, such as: Lutheran Hospital, Mercy Hospital, Methodist Hospital, etc.

I don't recall ever having seen Athiest Hospital, Agnostic Hospital, New Age Hospital, etc.

Judeo-Christian culture actually works in real life, in every sense of the word. Athiesm, on the other hand, can only make gains by usurping those institutions that were established with the Judeo-Christian principles.

Why would a hospital which is destined to save lives want to advertise a religion if its got nothing to do with it? the reason you have the religious ones is because they are charities and not funded by the tax payers, eg private:

Mercy Hospital is a private not-for-profit organisation with charitable status.

http://www.mercyhospital.org.nz/about-us/mercy-hospital/overview

They are not going to change the original names, not when they have investors from that religion.