How can anyone believe in God?

[J. K.]

Which for many tenses of the word 'knowledge' would mean that the one who was wrong didn't actually possess knowledge (for most definitions which require knowledge to be something factual). Which means for some tenses of 'know', those involving those definitions of 'knowledge', one of them didn't actually know it. But those words have lots of valid usages, which includes how you are using them.

So anyway, to bring it full circle, the original proposition becomes something like, do believers know that God exists partly because they want it to be true?

Since knowledge can change and expand over a period of time, isn't it possible for someone to know something only to find that it wasn't true? It seems possible to "know" an incorrect bit of knowledge.

I would say that some believers want God to exist so that they can experience the benefits that you mentioned earlier, but that "wanting" would be inferior to "knowing." If they just "want" God to exist, then there seems to be some doubt, which would deny knowledge.

[+and-then]

As someone has already noted, human nature is apt to good also, but regardless I had trouble understanding the point here, namely, why is the existence of human evil a 'problem' concerning the existence of God? Belief in God also has not solved the problem of hate and destruction, and sometimes has exacerbated it.

Sure, but some of the best minds of any time have also been dead wrong about certain things. I have yet to see any mind of any time come up with good evidence or a good argument for any god.

Fair enough point, I don't know for sure what God is to those who look to him for strength. But just because people look to him for strength isn't an argument for his existence, unless we want to say that the existence of all the other contradictory gods is supported by the fact that people look to them for strength also.

Whether the precision of the universe is 'impossible' is, at best, scientifically controversial. Regardless, even if this was true, we would also need to answer why a 'Creator' is a better answer than something like 'an impersonal force/creation mechanism'.

Can you name a prediction that is playing out to this day? Something that hasn't occurred yet so we can validate this prediction? Hindsight prediction fulfillment is pretty easy, especially when there's ambiguity involved; see Nostradamus.

A couple just over the horizon: Total destruction of the city of Damascus in a way which makes it uninhabitable(Isaiah 17). And an attack by the neighbors of Israel - all who share an immediate border. No big leap there - but their crushing defeat will be. Psalm 83 explains it. Now we will see when it occurs, what excuses are used to deny it was foretold. The city of Tyre in modern Lebanon was foretold to be destroyed and never rebuilt. It happened and it happened in spite of access to fresh water in abundance -a true wealth in the M.E. There are others but unless a person has an open mind it is pointless to cite them. Make no mistake - I really do not care if others believe in God. That is between themselves and the Creator. It does not harm me and I am not their judge - don't try to be.

[+OverSword]

I've never really understood this, I would think it would be obvious to a believer why non-believers don't believe. Simply apply the standards of evidence that you would require to believe the statement, 'octopi exist' to 'God exists'. Countless numbers of the explanations offered why believers believe involve some kind of personal experience or 'evidence'; do you believe that without that kind of 'evidence', that someone would have a good sound, rational, empirical justification for knowing God exists? There is obviously ample evidence that not everyone has these experiences.

I thought that part of the explanation from a religious perspective is that non-believers are corrupted by sin and hate God and love the world and the darkness, etcetera. That may actually be the case, but I thought that all corrupted the 'heart', not necessarily the rational mind and intellect. If you are aware of another objective proposition that we've shown to be true by using our 'heart', I'd be very interested to hear it.

Oh I agree with you. If you are at the point where you demand the same degree of evidence for god as you would for bigfoot then obviously, you are not going to believe (formerly me). But what I'm talking about is that for me personally I started to recognize some kind of influence in my life that despite my best efforts kept things going for me. I think just about everyone has this type of thing go on in their life at some point. What I decided for myself about this perceived phenomena was that these thing were God making himself known in my life. I could just as easily (decided to) not recognize it as that and call it luck or think that's just what I deserved to have happen, which I think is what most people do. But as I stated above I think part of life is recognizing that God is in your life. No time for more detail at the moment.

[+Liquid Gardens]

A couple just over the horizon: Total destruction of the city of Damascus in a way which makes it uninhabitable(Isaiah 17). And an attack by the neighbors of Israel - all who share an immediate border. No big leap there - but their crushing defeat will be. Psalm 83 explains it. Now we will see when it occurs, what excuses are used to deny it was foretold.

Predefining in some way 'when it occurs' is a fairly relevant point of a prediction.

There are others but unless a person has an open mind it is pointless to cite them.

Good predictions don't require an open mind as they are specific enough to validate. Again, note Nostradamus, he's made more 'valid' predictions than the Bible ever has as long as you keep an open mind.

[leipzig]

alow me to refraze I am not a mean person at all I just view earth as a doorstep to hell. the way I see it if people just stop using religion as a tool for hate and such then this world would be a batter place and yes I know history. I have seen angels and have meet in person in my sleep. god has to be real cause people need him and if you doin;t belive fine. but the fact that there needa to be some power of love out of this world. I am not making fun or dissing god by saying he is a tyrant I am saying people make him out to be this way. people need to wake up. if god is not real then why do people claim to see angels and other beings. why do people have nde and claim to meet god. also god has kept me away from my selfish needs as of late. I aslo had diverticulitis after I got done with school. without faith and him being ther idk he saved me cause it was unbearable pain. yes my family and friends got me thorugh but god kept me going. and he help me gain fith back

Edited May 24, 2014 by leipzig

[Grandpa Greenman]

How do you know what you're seeing is an Angel. Maybe it not an Angel, maybe it was Jinn.

The other day I was going to the store (Walmart). At he crosswalk was a Big Foot. He told me not to believe everything I hear or see on the internet. He said there are people out there who what to fool you and tell you things that are nonsense. I thanked him for his advice and continued on my way. True story.

[StarMountainKid]

StarMountainKid, on 23 May 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

The connection between desire and belief is so obvious it cannot be denied or overlooked. Believers want to believe in God. I think this disqualifies them as true believers. A true believer would be one who realizes the evidence is so overwhelming, he/she would have no choice but to believe, and would be forced to put aside all skepticism.

I would agree with sentence # 4, but not with # 1 and # 2. I don't want to believe in God anymore than I want to believe that the sun shines during the day. Each one is simply an accepted fact.

You say believers want to believe in God. Why do you think they want to?

I think it's obvious that people who believe in God have a desire to believe in God. I'm trying to say that this desire is just desire. Basing one's belief on "I believe in God because I want to believe in God" is to me not a fundamental enough reason. It's based too much on a sense of personal satisfaction.

If one believes in God because it makes one feel good or for a personal sense of security or for any other personal reason, I think this is a false and selfish basis for belief.

In my opinion, one should love God because it's God's due and God is worthy of one's belief and faith. This points the finger away from the self and toward God. It is mearly arrogance to love God because it's good for you. God respects no man, and I'm sure God especially doesn't respect someone who beieves in 'Him' for self-centered reasons.

Edited May 23, 2014 by StarMountainKid

[leipzig]

he had wings a sword and was 7-9 feet tall golden armor and human whit wings but the same for the others . I have seen he 4 times. in my dreams. and in visions that I get.

[+Link of Hyrule]

I think of the abrahamic god as a douche that can do only one thing, destroy, the planet, men and women, animals, everything.

I kill ... I wound ... I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh.

Deuteronomy 32:39-42

I think of the Abrahamic God much MUCH differently than you.

[freetoroam]

alow me to refraze I am not a mean person at all I just view earth as a doorstep to hell. the way I see it if people just stop using religion as a tool for hate and such then this world would be a batter place and yes I know history. I have seen angels and have meet in person in my sleep. god has to be real cause people need him and if you doin;t belive fine. but the fact that there needa to be some power of love out of this world. I am not making fun or dissing god by saying he is a tyrant I am saying people make him out to be this way. people need to wake up. if god is not real then why do people claim to see angels and other beings. why do people have nde and claim to meet god. also god has kept me away from my selfish needs as of late. I aslo had diverticulitis after I got done with school. without faith and him being ther idk he saved me cause it was unbearable pain. yes my family and friends got me thorugh but god kept me going. and he help me gain fith back

People who do not believe in a god, do not see him as a tyrant, they do not see him / it as anything - because they do not believe.

As for "I am not a mean person at all I just view earth as a doorstep to hell." jeeze, what does this mean? a doorstep to hell? If religion makes you think that way about the planet you live on, then I am thankful I do not follow a religion which makes me think like that.

Earth is a planet and mother nature (if you insist on there being a god) is the god of Earth. If everyone respected this planet and nature, then the world would be a far better place to live in. Man is killing this planet, but nature will always prevail.

And one day if man has managed to wipe himself off the face of the Earth (remember man has not always been here, Earth was here well before humans) then what happens to the god? does the god cease to exist once man has.

Was there a god when the dinosaurs were roaming this planet and where does Adam and Eve come into this, did god wipe out the dinosaurs to make way for humans, did he put man on this planet in one form to watch how it evolved over the centuries?

[lightly]

belief is thought... faith is more of a feeling? I'm not sure you can think your way to or out of God. Spiritual things are hard to put into words?

Although i've had the Words in the Bible be quite revealing and uplifting at times. I don't know HOW people believe.. i just know they do sometimes.

I'm not sure if i'm getting more agnostic in my old age, or just reassessing my perceptions . When i was a little kid , God was an all knowing, all powerful, extremely old guy in the clouds.. very strict, but he was sort of like us. .. and even if HE was kinda scary, we knew Jesus loved us because we learned two songs about it. (Yes Jesus Loves Me) and (Jesus Loves the Little Children of the World)

Then God went to India and became EVERYTHING in the cosmos.. an all encompassing being of light and love... but not adverse to a super nova here and there to keep things in balance. Destruction is Re-creation .

Then God got even more mysterious and harder to explain ... hehe God's like that.

[leipzig]

look at what this world is doing to us people kill rape torture destroy each other. people have turned this world into a bad place yes there is good thing and great things in life. but evry day someone is doing evil instead of good that is what I ment by it. as far as the dino goes and human thing maby so. but you are right about earth before humans. I am not trying to rub off as mean I just do not understand this world as of late. people are not using their heads they prefer evil over good.that is why I belive in god as well. and as far as the end of the world thing it will not happen if we all just stop with all this evil bull and hate in this world that is why I referd to the hell thing because I see more evil than good in this world. I feel the world has become nothing but power greed money and who is better than the rest of us. its like we graduated school we all act like were in school still. people need to stop making this world hellish and make it beeter place fo us to live in

[freetoroam]

look at what this world is doing to us people kill rape torture destroy each other. people have turned this world into a bad place yes there is good thing and great things in life. but evry day someone is doing evil instead of good that is what I ment by it. as far as the dino goes and human thing maby so. but you are right about earth before humans. I am not trying to rub off as mean I just do not understand this world as of late. people are not using their heads they prefer evil over good.that is why I belive in god as well. and as far as the end of the world thing it will not happen if we all just stop with all this evil bull and hate in this world that is why I referd to the hell thing because I see more evil than good in this world. I feel the world has become nothing but power greed money and who is better than the rest of us. its like we graduated school we all act like were in school still. people need to stop making this world hellish and make it beeter place fo us to live in

I certainly agree people need to make this world a better place, mainly because it is only man who can make this world a better place.

Unfortunately, it is the religious divide which is causing much of the problems in this world.

[GoldenWolf]

I think of the Abrahamic God much MUCH differently than you.

There is a couple of fixed stars in astrology I think best describes him,

Spiculum:

Eye trouble, blindness, depression, hopelessly doomed, morbid religious outlook, no concern for human life; a nebula in the upper part of the Bow of the Archer

Algorab:

Scavenging, destructiveness, repulsiveness, malevolence, fiendishness and lying, suicide, greed, injuries

Just like a wartime novelty.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Mystic Crusader

[freetoroam]

There is a couple of fixed stars in astrology I think best describes him,

Spiculum:

Eye trouble, blindness, depression, hopelessly doomed, morbid religious outlook, no concern for human life; a nebula in the upper part of the Bow of the Archer

Algorab:

Scavenging, destructiveness, repulsiveness, malevolence, fiendishness and lying, suicide, greed, injuries

The astrological influences of the star Algorab

Of the nature of Mars and Saturn. It gives destructiveness, malevolence, fiendishness, repulsiveness and lying, and is connected with scavenging.

There is no mention of the Abrahamic God anywhere, so this is your own opinion. I ask again, you indicate you acknowledge him, means you believe he is a god? Obvious one you show no respect for, but you do acknowledge him?

As I do not believe in god, i can not acknowledge it as you do.

Edited May 24, 2014 by freetoroam

[GoldenWolf]

The astrological influences of the star Algorab

Of the nature of Mars and Saturn. It gives destructiveness, malevolence, fiendishness, repulsiveness and lying, and is connected with scavenging.

There is no mention of the Abrahamic God anywhere, so this is your own opinion. I ask again, you indicate you acknowledge him, means you believe he is a god? Obvious one you show no respect for, but you do acknowledge him?

As I do not believe in god, i can not acknowledge it as you do.

I see him as the God of hell.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Mystic Crusader

[+Liquid Gardens]

Oh I agree with you. If you are at the point where you demand the same degree of evidence for god as you would for bigfoot then obviously, you are not going to believe (formerly me). But what I'm talking about is that for me personally I started to recognize some kind of influence in my life that despite my best efforts kept things going for me. I think just about everyone has this type of thing go on in their life at some point. What I decided for myself about this perceived phenomena was that these thing were God making himself known in my life. I could just as easily (decided to) not recognize it as that and call it luck or think that's just what I deserved to have happen, which I think is what most people do. But as I stated above I think part of life is recognizing that God is in your life.

Thanks for your honesty on this, this is to me an entirely understandable and rational explanation of why one would believe and of the nature of the evidence. I personally see no reason to not demand the same evidence for god as I would for anything else, at least from a logical standpoint. I think you partly decided these things were God because you want it to be God, partly because I can't just as easily not recognize the sun for example and call it something else like you can concerning the evidence for God. And I don't begrudge anyone believing things because they want to or for comfort or because it give meaning to their lives, that's totally cool, but I don't see any harm in being honest about the state of the evidence for God relative to more proven propositions.

[+Liquid Gardens]

Since knowledge can change and expand over a period of time, isn't it possible for someone to know something only to find that it wasn't true? It seems possible to "know" an incorrect bit of knowledge.

From a certain point of view I guess, it just seems that once we find out something is not true then you cease to know it and never actually did know it. It seems strange to say, 'the ancients knew that demons caused diseases' or 'the ancients had knowledge that demons caused diseases'; for a lot of usages of 'knowledge' saying 'knew that demons caused diseases' is stating that demons truly cause diseases, since we used 'knew' it sometimes implies that what follows is a fact. The words 'believed' or 'were convinced' are better than 'know' in these types of situations.

I would say that some believers want God to exist so that they can experience the benefits that you mentioned earlier, but that "wanting" would be inferior to "knowing." If they just "want" God to exist, then there seems to be some doubt, which would deny knowledge.

Agreed. I personally think that lack of good evidence also denies knowledge; I think you believe God exists for example, not know it, as I don't think anyone can really know for sure given the evidence at this time, again using my usages of those words. I think ultimately the point about wanting God to exist compared to the alternative is that it raises the question of if and how much that is contributing to your conviction that he does exist; wanting something to be true can be adequate reason for a person to believe that something is true, but is not a valid argument why it is true.

[Davros of Skaro]

How can anyone believe in God?

1 There are Books that say to believe, and are packed with texts for that purpose.

2 Believers ignore the times they fudge the truth for their belief.

3 Believers go to confirmation biased sources, and know that they are not alone.

4 It's easy to understand a God when it's a reflection of one's own mind.

5 There are incentives to believe that is not unlike the make up of a gambler.

6 No need to understand the Universe when someone has a preset plan for you.

7 Someone loves you despite your unworth, and all it takes is obedience for your own good.

8 You are transformed into a whole new person when you submit to God.

9 Belief without question is a high virtue.

*10 Nonbelievers are in relative minority, unorganized, and are going to burn anyway

Edited May 24, 2014 by davros of skaro

[Davros of Skaro]

A couple just over the horizon: Total destruction of the city of Damascus in a way which makes it uninhabitable(Isaiah 17). And an attack by the neighbors of Israel - all who share an immediate border. No big leap there - but their crushing defeat will be. Psalm 83 explains it. Now we will see when it occurs, what excuses are used to deny it was foretold. The city of Tyre in modern Lebanon was foretold to be destroyed and never rebuilt. It happened and it happened in spite of access to fresh water in abundance -a true wealth in the M.E. There are others but unless a person has an open mind it is pointless to cite them. Make no mistake - I really do not care if others believe in God. That is between themselves and the Creator. It does not harm me and I am not their judge - don't try to be.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

[Davros of Skaro]

he had wings a sword and was 7-9 feet tall golden armor and human whit wings but the same for the others . I have seen he 4 times. in my dreams. and in visions that I get.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_(mythology)

[Grandpa Greenman]

http://en.m.wikipedi...Nike_(mythology)

Link is not working, DofS. Is this what you were trying to post?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_(mythology)

Edited May 24, 2014 by GreenmansGod

[Davros of Skaro]

Link is not working, DofS. Is this what you were trying to post?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_(mythology)

Yes...Thanks.

[Frank Merton]

I've dreamed of having conversations with her a few times; funny thing, she never mentioned Athena. I wonder if they've had a falling out.

[leipzig]

Michael archangel is the one I saw