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Terrorism behind the scenario.


jeem

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May be because there were no leader among Arabs to raise the voice against the ottoman empire

Well, it's a possibility I guess. But ... not even civilian disorder or riots ? I dunno.....

Oh and you believe Christian were very nice to the Jews.

I didn't say that, did I ?

So killing innocent children is self defense?

Of course not. But if you put children next to a rocket launcher, or machine gun, then who's fault is it when they are hit by return fire ?

Destroying peoples house for making Jewish settlements is self defense?

Depends on where the houses where, (Israel, or the occupied territories) and also whether their construction was legal.

For example, my local council knocks down houses all of the time. Does that make the UK a fascist state ? Of course not; it depends on the circumstances.

Just take a look what ordinary US citizen's taxes used for

http://thewe.cc/cont.../atrocities.htm

Roof I can say many things about Israel's terrorism.But I wonder will it change anything?

My my.. what a fascinating website. I shall look into this a little further. However, seeing as none of the accusations are substantiated, nor any of the pictures credited or annotated for time/place, then I am initially suspicious.

It hardly adds to the credibility of the accusations when the author starts citing the Illuminati and the New World Order as being the prime movers behind it all. Why would the all-powerful Illuminati bother with causing trouble in a microscopic dot (geographically speaking) in the middle east ? And who's side - precisely - are they supposed to be on ?

If the combined might of the Illuminati and the New World Order where on Israel's side, then Israel would own the entire of the Arabian Penninsula, and the Palestinians would long since have ceased to exist.

Wait... perhaps this has already happened, but the Jewish-controlled World Media is 'faking' the continued existence of the Palestinians in order to keep American Aid flooding in, aided and abetted by the Jewish-controlled World Banking System. After all, they already own the Moon, which is why the Americans where prevented from ever landing on it. (Neil Armstrong didn't have any cash in the lander module, and hence couldn't afford the Parking Charge.)

Now, if only we could fit the Loch Ness Monster into the plot somehow.

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Well, it's a possibility I guess. But ... not even civilian disorder or riots ? I dunno.....

I am not an ottoman history expert so I dunno either

I didn't say that, did I ?

Agree.But intentionally you only bring the Muslims.

Of course not. But if you put children next to a rocket launcher, or machine gun, then who's fault is it when they are hit by return fire ?

So children who died playing was next to rocket or machine gun.

Depends on where the houses where, (Israel, or the occupied territories) and also whether their construction was legal.

For example, my local council knocks down houses all of the time. Does that make the UK a fascist state ? Of course not; it depends on the circumstances.

So if US destroys your house in UK wouldn't US be a fascist state?

My my.. what a fascinating website. I shall look into this a little further. However, seeing as none of the accusations are substantiated, nor any of the pictures credited or annotated for time/place, then I am initially suspicious.

Links were provided for many pictures.

It hardly adds to the credibility of the accusations when the author starts citing the Illuminati and the New World Order as being the prime movers behind it all. Why would the all-powerful Illuminati bother with causing trouble in a microscopic dot (geographically speaking) in the middle east ? And who's side - precisely - are they supposed to be on ?

If the combined might of the Illuminati and the New World Order where on Israel's side, then Israel would own the entire of the Arabian Penninsula, and the Palestinians would long since have ceased to exist.

Wait... perhaps this has already happened, but the Jewish-controlled World Media is 'faking' the continued existence of the Palestinians in order to keep American Aid flooding in, aided and abetted by the Jewish-controlled World Banking System. After all, they already own the Moon, which is why the Americans where prevented from ever landing on it. (Neil Armstrong didn't have any cash in the lander module, and hence couldn't afford the Parking Charge.)

Now, if only we could fit the Loch Ness Monster into the plot somehow.

The new world order was not the authors personal comment.He refers to an article by global research.And the main writer was

by Paul Craig Roberts

Global Research, August 5, 2008.

It was on the leftmost corner of the article.

Edited by jeem
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Man that link... Its no wonder that suicides take more lives from israeli soldiers then palestinian bombs do. And about that man who was shooting at palestinians while Israel army people were around him - i think he is foreigner most likely - come to 'shooting range' and shot kid in the neck.

And this is known as self defense.Ironic isn't it?

Edited by jeem
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And this is known as self defense.Ironic isn't it?

Yeah. Safety... And all i see are Palestinian kids getting injured or killed over the years.

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Palestinian Kids....

Palestinian%2Bboys%2Bwith%2Btheir%2Bnew%2B%27toy%27%2Bguns.jpg

Child-Jihadist-91700083998.png

06.07.09.PaliBodyArmor-X.gif

There is a recorded history of Palestinian children being indoctrinated into the nihilistic creed of suicide Jihad. Children are used by Hamas and Fatah as messengers, as transporters of munitions and explosives, and - ultimately - as suicide bombers.

In addition, HAMAS often makes rocket attacks from areas with a dense civilian population, such as marketplaces, schools, and from the roofs of crowded buildings. They do this in the cynical knowledge that any Israeli counter-battery fire will hurt or kill civilians, including children.

Then we have the mothers who rejoice in the death of their children;

. Sick, sick, sick.

I think it was Golda Meir who said "We will only have peace when the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate the jews", or something like that.

The death of a child is a tragedy, but don't let your hatred of Israel blind you as to the cynical reality behind many of these deaths.

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I just googled Israeli bus bombing under "images" - funny that, I wasn't allowed to post those images. DOZENS of images of people dead, pieces scattered all over the place. Their crime? They're Israeli. Sir you need to cast a wider glance at the world.

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A list of Israels self defense act

February 21, 1973: Israel landed commando units on the coasts of the northern Lebanese city of Tripoli. They attacked two Palestinian refugees camps, dynamited several houses and buildings, some over the heads of their occupants, killing 35 refugees and wounding a similar number. On the same day, Israeli war planes shot down a Libyan Civilian Aircraft over the Sinai Desert killing over 100 passengers.

July 17, 1982: U.S. supplied F-4 and F-5 jets swooped low over Beirut in 4 passes, bombing the densely-populated Fakahani district. Five tall apartment buildings were destroyed, 200 people were killed and 800 wounded. Forty percent of the victims were small children, and one of the survivors was an unborn baby pulled by doctors from the dead mother's womb. Israel's then Chief-of-staff Rafael Eitan announced on Israeli Radio that civilian causalities were unimportant and that the Arab causalities suffered as of the July 17 attack did not yet constitute the Israeli "final solution

1986: Israeli secret agents assassinated a noted Palestinian cartoonist Naji Al Ali, in London.

April 14, 1989: Israeli border guards and settlers attacked the peaceful and unarmed village of Nahalin near Bethlehem. Eight Palestinians were massacred for no reason and over 50 were injured. The killings took place late in the night and at the beginning of the Holy month of Ramadan.

1969: The Israelis distinguished themselves by committing a horrible crime, in retaliation of attrition war across the Suez Canal, Israeli war planes raided an Egyptian school "Bahr al Baker" in southern Egypt killing 75 children and wounding over 100.

Edited by jeem
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Palestinian Kids....

Palestinian%2Bboys%2Bwith%2Btheir%2Bnew%2B%27toy%27%2Bguns.jpg

Child-Jihadist-91700083998.png

06.07.09.PaliBodyArmor-X.gif

There is a recorded history of Palestinian children being indoctrinated into the nihilistic creed of suicide Jihad. Children are used by Hamas and Fatah as messengers, as transporters of munitions and explosives, and - ultimately - as suicide bombers.

In addition, HAMAS often makes rocket attacks from areas with a dense civilian population, such as marketplaces, schools, and from the roofs of crowded buildings. They do this in the cynical knowledge that any Israeli counter-battery fire will hurt or kill civilians, including children.

Then we have the mothers who rejoice in the death of their children;

. Sick, sick, sick.

I think it was Golda Meir who said "We will only have peace when the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate the jews", or something like that.

The death of a child is a tragedy, but don't let your hatred of Israel blind you as to the cynical reality behind many of these deaths.

My dear... :)

I was 7 years old when i fired first shoot from a rifle and i got one rifle and hand grenade - in case that enemies broke our defensive line. Use your imagination. Sarajevo ( my city ) was under siege for over 4 years. Gaza is under siege for...

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I just googled Israeli bus bombing under "images" - funny that, I wasn't allowed to post those images. DOZENS of images of people dead, pieces scattered all over the place. Their crime? They're Israeli. Sir you need to cast a wider glance at the world.

In a war, unfortunately, such things happen and its hard to expect that Israel wont have even more victims in future if this isnt resolved. . While suicide bombers take lives from Israel civilians, so do Palestinians from Israel army. How many Palestinians lost whole families? That makes them suicide bombers.

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In a war, unfortunately, such things happen and its hard to expect that Israel wont have even more victims in future if this isnt resolved. . While suicide bombers take lives from Israel civilians, so do Palestinians from Israel army. How many Palestinians lost whole families? That makes them suicide bombers.

In a war, unfortunately, such things happen and its hard to expect that Israel wont have even more victims in future if this isnt resolved. . While suicide bombers take lives from Israel civilians, so do Palestinians from Israel army. How many Palestinians lost whole families? That makes them suicide bombers.

You are correct and I agree - there is no real solution to hate except for one side to begin and try to trust. But in this conflict I have watched time and again such efforts and both sides have elements unwilling to change. "Free" land is a powerful motivator for many Israelis and churning an unending war is a good way for Palestinian leaders to stay in power even when they offer nothing of substance to help their people to live better. I think this conflict will only end when a resounding military solution is achieved. But the aftermath of THAT will only lead to yet another war I think.
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You are correct and I agree - there is no real solution to hate except for one side to begin and try to trust. But in this conflict I have watched time and again such efforts and both sides have elements unwilling to change. "Free" land is a powerful motivator for many Israelis and churning an unending war is a good way for Palestinian leaders to stay in power even when they offer nothing of substance to help their people to live better. I think this conflict will only end when a resounding military solution is achieved. But the aftermath of THAT will only lead to yet another war I think.

I hope for better solution but reality is tough. If worlds most powerful countries would demand solution and force both sides to make a deal it would be possible, why there is no solution for so long time - there are many possible reasons behind that. One is surely divide and conquer, small number of people profit from that situation there and obviously they will do anything to keep their 'investment' safe.

Man i was so touched ( emotionally ) after i have seen the Pope has come to ME with jewish and islamic friends who happen to be representatives of their religions. And i have mention that somewhere at UM earlier. There are so many examples of people living together in peace and love, even marry each other. Not to mention friendships. Lets start from here, how can i hate you or wish u harm if i dont know you? And many people think the same ( that is what i like to believe ) but our voice is not heard. We all silently observe whats going on while the voice of people who desire wars is heard often and that voice is loud. There cant be good without evil but whats good for me doesnt mean that its good for you. With that in mind, people need agreement. And they must realize that u need to give something to get something in return.

'Deyton agreement' is nice example of that. In the end, only side that lost are people - in case of my country everyone lost something but we dont fear for our lives at least.

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A list of Israels self defense act

February 21, 1973: Israel landed commando units on the coasts of the northern Lebanese city of Tripoli. They attacked two Palestinian refugees camps, dynamited several houses and buildings, some over the heads of their occupants, killing 35 refugees and wounding a similar number.

Oh, and in passing killed the leadership of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation, and specifically the group who had planned the Munich Massacre. The dynamited buildings where PLO barracks containing scores of armed soldiers. But I'm sure all that was an accident: the Israeli's REALLY just wanted to kill some random civilians.

Oh, and there was NO incursion into refugee camps: that bit was a lie by the PLO.

On the same day, Israeli war planes shot down a Libyan Civilian Aircraft over the Sinai Desert killing over 100 passengers.

On the same day a large, unidentified jet penetrated Israeli territory, heading on a direct line to the Dimona Nuclear Plant. Egyptian ATC denied any knowledge of the aircraft. The plane did not respond to radio messages. Upon being intercepted, the IAF pilots could see the captain of the plane, but he refused to respond to standard visual signals to follow the Israeli planes to an airport, and instead appeared to try and evade them, even after warning shots had been fired . With all other options exhausted, the fighters tried to force the plane down with machine-cannon fire, causing the plane to crashland. See http://en.wikipedia....ines_Flight_114 for more.

July 17, 1982: U.S. supplied F-4 and F-5 jets swooped low over Beirut in 4 passes, bombing the densely-populated Fakahani district. Five tall apartment buildings were destroyed, 200 people were killed and 800 wounded. Forty percent of the victims were small children, and one of the survivors was an unborn baby pulled by doctors from the dead mother's womb. Israel's then Chief-of-staff Rafael Eitan announced on Israeli Radio that civilian causalities were unimportant and that the Arab causalities suffered as of the July 17 attack did not yet constitute the Israeli "final solution

Sadly true, and the Israeli's immediately stripped the Defence Minister of most of his powers to order air strikes when they heard about this incident, despite the fact that the "densely-populated" district was - in fact - densely populated with PLO soldiers who had been using the buildings as military bases.

1986: Israeli secret agents assassinated a noted Palestinian cartoonist Naji Al Ali, in London.

ALMOST correct, except with one MINOR error, which I'm sure everyone will ignore. Naji was not killed by the Israeli's. He was killed by the PLO for drawing cartoons lampooning PLO corruption in general, and Yasser Arafat in particular.. But, hey, why bother with such a trivial detail ? Lets blame it on the Israeli's anyway. Perhaps we can get Mossad in the frame for John Lennon whill'st we're at it ?

April 14, 1989: Israeli border guards and settlers attacked the peaceful and unarmed village of Nahalin near Bethlehem. Eight Palestinians were massacred for no reason and over 50 were injured. The killings took place late in the night and at the beginning of the Holy month of Ramadan.

The village was neither peaceful nor unarmed. It was a dawn police raid on a town who's teenagers had a track record of throwing stones at passing traffic on the nearby highway. The police encountered 100+ youths throwing stones at them,and over-reacted. Several senior officers where disciplined for this event.

1969: The Israelis distinguished themselves by committing a horrible crime, in retaliation of attrition war across the Suez Canal, Israeli war planes raided an Egyptian school "Bahr al Baker" in southern Egypt killing 75 children and wounding over 100.

Not the IAF's finest hour perhaps, but it was not a deliberate act, as you imply. The israeli's thought they where attacking a military facility.

To quote the senior Egyptian general of the time, when specifically asked about the Bahr al Baker bombing,

There comes a time to acknowledge an important fact in this area, that at those black days of Israeli bombing, the military targets were mixed with civilian targets. We can even say that in many cases the military targets were hiding behind civilian targets....

So, once more, we have a mixture of selective reporting, distortions, and outright lies. Welcome to PalliWood.

Edited by RoofGardener
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Oh, and in passing killed the leadership of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation, and specifically the group who had planned the Munich Massacre. The dynamited buildings where PLO barracks containing scores of armed soldiers. But I'm sure all that was an accident: the Israeli's REALLY just wanted to kill some random civilians.

Oh, and there was NO incursion into refugee camps: that bit was a lie by the PLO.

On the same day a large, unidentified jet penetrated Israeli territory, heading on a direct line to the Dimona Nuclear Plant. Egyptian ATC denied any knowledge of the aircraft. The plane did not respond to radio messages. Upon being intercepted, the IAF pilots could see the captain of the plane, but he refused to respond to standard visual signals to follow the Israeli planes to an airport, and instead appeared to try and evade them, even after warning shots had been fired . With all other options exhausted, the fighters tried to force the plane down with machine-cannon fire, causing the plane to crashland. See http://en.wikipedia....ines_Flight_114 for more.

Sadly true, and the Israeli's immediately stripped the Defence Minister of most of his powers to order air strikes when they heard about this incident, despite the fact that the "densely-populated" district was - in fact - densely populated with PLO soldiers who had been using the buildings as military bases.

ALMOST correct, except with one MINOR error, which I'm sure everyone will ignore. Naji was not killed by the Israeli's. He was killed by the PLO for drawing cartoons lampooning PLO corruption in general, and Yasser Arafat in particular.. But, hey, why bother with such a trivial detail ? Lets blame it on the Israeli's anyway. Perhaps we can get Mossad in the frame for John Lennon whill'st we're at it ?

The village was neither peaceful nor unarmed. It was a dawn police raid on a town who's teenagers had a track record of throwing stones at passing traffic on the nearby highway. The police encountered 100+ youths throwing stones at them,and over-reacted. Several senior officers where disciplined for this event.

Not the IAF's finest hour perhaps, but it was not a deliberate act, as you imply. The israeli's thought they where attacking a military facility.

To quote the senior Egyptian general of the time, when specifically asked about the Bahr al Baker bombing,

So, once more, we have a mixture of selective reporting, distortions, and outright lies. Welcome to PalliWood.

In August 1981 Israeli press published a letter by prime minister Menahem Begin which he wrote in response to hypocritical criticism of the Israeli bombing of Beirut, which killed hundreds of civilians. Begin offered a "partial list" of military attacks on Arab civilians under the Labor governments, which included over 30 separate episodes that left many civilians dead.

He concluded that "under the Alignment government, there were regular retaliatory actions against civilian Arab populations; the air force operated against them; the damage was directed against such structures as the canal, bridges and transport."

However Begin's list was supplemented by Chief of Staff Mordechai Gur who stated that "For 30 years, from the War of Independence until today, we have been fighting against a population that lives in villages and cities"

The Israeli military analyst Zeev Schiff summarized General Gur's comments as follows: "In South Lebanon we struck the civilian population consciously, because they deserved it...the importance of Gur's remarks is the admission that the Israeli Army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously...the Army, he said, has never distinguished civilian [from military] targets... [but]purposely attacked civilian targets even when Israeli settlements had not been struck.

Edited by jeem
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Zeev Schiff was a Journalist for Ha'Aretz. He also wrote this:

Hamas and the other Palestinian organizations, which seek mainly to strike civilian targets in Israel, are now complaining about Palestinian civilians being harmed. Israel mustn't punish Palestinian civilians for the attacks on its communities, but it must return fire immediately to the sources of fire, even if civilians nearby are hurt. This is the most basic and natural right to defense.

full article

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Zeev Schiff was a Journalist for Ha'Aretz. He also wrote this:

Well pay more attention what prime minister Begin said

"under the Alignment government, there were regular retaliatory actions against civilian Arab populations; the air force operated against them; the damage was directed against such structures as the canal, bridges and transport."

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Well pay more attention what prime minister Begin said

.......

Hey.. it was YOU who introduced one of Zeev Schiff's articles.

Are you saying that we should cherry-pick, and ONLY pay attention to the ones that criticise Israel ?

OK... lets run with that for a while, and return to your isolated and cherry-picked Begin statement. I have no idea wether he actually SAID (or wrote) what you cited, as there is no corroborating link, but for the time being I'll take it as read.

....under the Alignment government, there were regular retaliatory actions against civilian Arab populations; the air force operated against them; the damage was directed against such structures as the canal, bridges and transport."

Gosh thats AWFUL. What sort of monsters would target Canals, Bridges and Transport hubs/infrastructure ?

Well, the Alliance when it went into Iraq.

Oh... and the Allied Air Forces when we liberated France in 1944.

And likewise in Korea when we kicked the communists out.

And - arguably - the British when we liberated the Falkland Islands (the bombing attack on the civilian Falklands Airport ?? )

And if we're talking Lebanon, then we have to be just a TEENY bit careful about defining "civilian". The PLO deliberately, and cynically, launched rocket and cross-border attacks from barracks based in "civilian" buildings.

Over to you, Jeem.

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Hey.. it was YOU who introduced one of Zeev Schiff's articles.

Are you saying that we should cherry-pick, and ONLY pay attention to the ones that criticise Israel ?

All the statement criticize Israel instead you only pay attention to the one which was easy to counter.

OK... lets run with that for a while, and return to your isolated and cherry-picked Begin statement. I have no idea wether he actually SAID (or wrote) what you cited, as there is no corroborating link, but for the time being I'll take it as read.

Gosh thats AWFUL. What sort of monsters would target Canals, Bridges and Transport hubs/infrastructure ?

Gosh we are not talking about Bridges, Transport we are talking about civilian population.

Well, the Alliance when it went into Iraq.

Oh... and the Allied Air Forces when we liberated France in 1944.

And likewise in Korea when we kicked the communists out.

And - arguably - the British when we liberated the Falkland Islands (the bombing attack on the civilian Falklands Airport ?? )

The Falkland island was not liberated it belongs to the Argentinian which was taken by force.

And if we're talking Lebanon, then we have to be just a TEENY bit careful about defining "civilian". The PLO deliberately, and cynically, launched rocket and cross-border attacks from barracks based in "civilian" buildings.

Over to you, Jeem.

It is clear from the prime minister account that he was defending the killing of civilian population. Zeev Schiff summarize Generals GUR's statement that IDF has been hitting civilian consciously.He actually was saying what the Israeli leader think about civilian causalities.

Lets end this with a quote from Noam Chomosky

"I personally do not like Hamas there is a lot to criticize about them.But if you compare them with American-Israeli atrocities they are minor criminal"

PS:This might not be what he said since I recalled it from my memory however the meaning is not changed

Edited by jeem
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Perhaps you don't know that the Taliban government reduce opium production by 95% in two years 1999-2001.

So what?

It is absurd in general to give this group of ppl any kind of a plus. It is of the same absurd argumentation style

like the statement that Adolf Hitler has "also done good things" like the establishment of a highway network in

Germany from 1933 on.

Edited by toast
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It is clear from the prime minister account that he was defending the killing of civilian population. Zeev Schiff summarize Generals GUR's statement that IDF has been hitting civilian consciously.He actually was saying what the Israeli leader think about civilian causalities.

Stuff and nonsense. That is NOT what Begin said, not even close. He says that the civilian population was targeted in terms of bridges, canals and transport . You are putting words into his mouth that he never said.

As for the General: there have been serious rifts between the politicians and the IDF time and time again, with Generals often being sacked or replaced, and other senior Staff officers subject to disciplinary action for "going too far". I would suggest that it is completely erroneous to assume that the civilian leadership, and the military leadership, are of one mind.

Lets end this with a quote from Noam Chomosky

No, lets not. He is a tedious buffoon.

The Falkland island was not liberated it belongs to the Argentinian which was taken by force.

In a cocked hat was it !!! The islands where discovered by the British, first settled by the French, and then given to the Spanish, and thereafter given back to the people who first discovered them - the British.

No Argentinian contingent has ever existed on the Islands, prior to the invasion of 1982.

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I hope for better solution but reality is tough. If worlds most powerful countries would demand solution and force both sides to make a deal it would be possible, why there is no solution for so long time - there are many possible reasons behind that. One is surely divide and conquer, small number of people profit from that situation there and obviously they will do anything to keep their 'investment' safe.

This is more a reply for jeem than sir, sir just happened to bring it up…

But let’s say that the world could force the two-state solution. You’d first have to force boundaries back to the ’67 borders (or do you want the pre ’48?). Then you’d have to force statehood on the Palestinians. If you can get to that point, how long would it be before the Palestinian’s begin committing violence against Israel? The world would have to fight religious dogma to keep Israel free from attack. That would be a catalyst to spread radical Islam worldwide. That’s probably the main reason the world hasn’t forced anything.

In order to be a viable nation, that nation has to be able to defend themselves (not rely on a world peacekeeping force) and also that nation must have a contiguous homeland. The ’48 borders fail both states and the ’67 borders primarily fail the Palestinian. This is a solution the world cannot enforce without committing more atrocities than what jeem claims Israel is doing. The world would eventually pull out for the same reasons that the British did. The only difference is that the world would have caused more misery than letting events run their course.

The only real solution is a one-state, winner take all scenario. But if that occurs and Israel wins out, the region would become more stable. Israel could basically focus on Hezbollah as the last aggressive enemy to deal with. However, let’s say that the Palestinians would win out. That’s not likely but let’s just consider that for a moment. Hezbollah would probably move into Northern Israel and challenge Hamas for land. Even amidst civil war, Syria would probably reclaim the Golan Heights which would give them command of Northern Israel and Southern Lebanon for future conquests. Jordan would probably move to control the West Bank/Eilat and claim it as part of their territory. Egypt would put Gaza and the Negev under their jurisdiction. In short, Palestine would only be a place name like it has always been. Of course, if you don’t think that would happen, then perhaps you could explain how these neighboring nations would not take actions to defend themselves or act on old claims, or basically land grab? Or what would stop them?

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This is more a reply for jeem than sir, sir just happened to bring it up…

But let's say that the world could force the two-state solution. You'd first have to force boundaries back to the '67 borders (or do you want the pre '48?). Then you'd have to force statehood on the Palestinians. If you can get to that point, how long would it be before the Palestinian's begin committing violence against Israel? The world would have to fight religious dogma to keep Israel free from attack. That would be a catalyst to spread radical Islam worldwide. That's probably the main reason the world hasn't forced anything.

In order to be a viable nation, that nation has to be able to defend themselves (not rely on a world peacekeeping force) and also that nation must have a contiguous homeland. The '48 borders fail both states and the '67 borders primarily fail the Palestinian. This is a solution the world cannot enforce without committing more atrocities than what jeem claims Israel is doing. The world would eventually pull out for the same reasons that the British did. The only difference is that the world would have caused more misery than letting events run their course.

The only real solution is a one-state, winner take all scenario. But if that occurs and Israel wins out, the region would become more stable. Israel could basically focus on Hezbollah as the last aggressive enemy to deal with. However, let's say that the Palestinians would win out. That's not likely but let's just consider that for a moment. Hezbollah would probably move into Northern Israel and challenge Hamas for land. Even amidst civil war, Syria would probably reclaim the Golan Heights which would give them command of Northern Israel and Southern Lebanon for future conquests. Jordan would probably move to control the West Bank/Eilat and claim it as part of their territory. Egypt would put Gaza and the Negev under their jurisdiction. In short, Palestine would only be a place name like it has always been. Of course, if you don't think that would happen, then perhaps you could explain how these neighboring nations would not take actions to defend themselves or act on old claims, or basically land grab? Or what would stop them?

That is one of the possible outcomes, and it's kinda realistic when we consider everything that has happened there in Palestine. Anyways, i could never support such outcome and if the world is going to allow such thing it will be a shame for every person in the world and in the same time it would be almost made legal to occupy lands and do ethnic cleansing for the 'greater cause'.

But i need to ask why should Palestine be forced into something as statehood? ( which would, at the end, have same results as if one side wins, as u said )

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That is one of the possible outcomes, and it's kinda realistic when we consider everything that has happened there in Palestine. Anyways, i could never support such outcome and if the world is going to allow such thing it will be a shame for every person in the world and in the same time it would be almost made legal to occupy lands and do ethnic cleansing for the 'greater cause'.

There’s no shame. This is just how civilization progresses (human nature). Don’t you think it’s kind of naïve to call something that has existed since the beginning of Human Civilization as shameful? Israel didn’t invent it, although there are some that would have us believe otherwise. Just about every nation now or in the past has performed some kind of ethnic cleansing. EC is just merely the controlling or moving of an unwanted population. In some cases EC is ingrained in the dogma of religion. It can take all kinds of forms. The extreme form is Genocide and people too often bandy that term around when it isn’t the case. Genocide is the absolute destruction of a people. Armenia, Ukraine, Nazi Germany, Rwanda, Bosnia, Darfur are examples of genocide. But Rome, Genghis Khan, US, Jordan are not. Dhimmitude is not genocide yet it is extreme EC or slavery. The “la Reconquista” of Spain is probably the ideal form of EC. One had the choice of what to do, convert to Catholicism, leave, or die. If you refused to leave and died, that’s not genocide. EC is not a picnic, people do die. Encouraging a population is very violent but every occurrence is not genocide. There are 7 billion people on this planet. To make one group happy usually means to take something from another group. Then to make that group happy again requires taking something from someone else. The fact is, is that some cultures are going to get the short end of the stick. The only solution is for those people to absorb into some other group(s) or for sure they will die. That is the evolution of civilization.

But i need to ask why should Palestine be forced into something as statehood? ( which would, at the end, have same results as if one side wins, as u said )

Without statehood, they cannot have legal status. They refused statehood because it would be the major sin of Shirk in Islam. Without statehood, there can never be the two-state solution.

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Stuff and nonsense. That is NOT what Begin said, not even close. He says that the civilian population was targeted in terms of bridges, canals and transport . You are putting words into his mouth that he never said.

No I am not you are putting word into his mouth.He said "there were regular retaliatory actions against civilian Arab populations; the air force operated against them;"By saying so he was defending the bombing of Beirut .

As for the General: there have been serious rifts between the politicians and the IDF time and time again, with Generals often being sacked or replaced, and other senior Staff officers subject to disciplinary action for "going too far". I would suggest that it is completely erroneous to assume that the civilian leadership, and the military leadership, are of one mind.

Zionist social leader David Hacohen wrote

“I would not accept Arabs in my trade union, the Histadrut; to defend preaching to housewives that they not buy at Arab stores; to prevent Arab workers from getting jobs there… To pour kerosene on Arab tomatoes, to attack Jewish housewives in the markets and smash the Arab eggs they had bought; to praise to the skies the Keren Kayemet that sent Hankin to Beirut to buy land from absentee effendi (landowners) and to throw the fellahin (peasant farmers) off the land – to buy dozens of dunams – from an Arab is permitted, but sell, God forbid, one Jewish dunam to an Arab is prohibited.”

Can not see much difference

No, lets not. He is a tedious buffoon.

No he is not.He is a tedious buffoon only for you.Chomsky was voted “the world’s top public intellectual” by over 4,000 readers of Foreign Policy magazine.

Edited by jeem
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So what?

It is absurd in general to give this group of ppl any kind of a plus. It is of the same absurd argumentation style

like the statement that Adolf Hitler has "also done good things" like the establishment of a highway network in

Germany from 1933 on.

The Taliban aren't the "same" as Hitler anymore than Saudis or Iraqis whom you trade with. They wouldn't give up the bad guys, they valued their own sovereignty and have nationalistic sentiments that grew through decades of tragedy. When a foreign country points a gun at them and orders them around, they don't listen. It's now a habit and turning out to be quite a successful one.

Doesn't Germany have a few thousand troops risking their lives in Afghanistan? We should care more about what they're doing over there. Does opium have anything to do with the mission or is that just in our papers?

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