'You will burn in hell'

[HushWhisper]

The church formally rejected free will back about 410 AD when it excommunicated Pelagius for heresy. According to Christian tradition and church law, there is no such thing as free will. Everything is pre-destined. Thus, it does no good to pray for salvation because god already knows what your fate will be. Whether you pray or not, go to church or not, believe or not, your fate has already been determined and your only choice is to accept it.

Doug

Traditions and laws will save no man when they stand before God. Only Jesus saves and He said man must be "born again". It means you must be a new creature re-born with the Holy Spirit of God Himself. No man works his way to Heaven, thou there are silly men who believe that.

[Marcus Aurelius]

A God that sends himself to kill himself, to appease a condition he created himself is not logical.

Think about it.

You're describing the Christian system in such a deterministic and fatalistic way that naturally, yes, it would sound as though it defies all logic. But even though you are clearly against any kind of religion and any kind of theism, you do appear to know something about what we believe...so surely you know that most Christians do not view the system in this way?? You presuppose that God has determined everything and that free will does not exist. The whole process changes if one says that man has choice.

The church formally rejected free will back about 410 AD when it excommunicated Pelagius for heresy. According to Christian tradition and church law, there is no such thing as free will. Everything is pre-destined. Thus, it does no good to pray for salvation because god already knows what your fate will be. Whether you pray or not, go to church or not, believe or not, your fate has already been determined and your only choice is to accept it.

Doug

This just isn't true at all. The greatest theologian of the Catholic Church, Saint Thomas Aquinas affirmed free will. It's also in the Catechism of the Catholic Church; which forms their core doctrine. And while Calvin from the Reformation believed in predestination; this did not become the majority view even in Protestantism. You are completely ignoring Arminian and Wesleyan theology which CLEARLY confirm freedom of the will.

This statement is patently false.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Marcus Aurelius

[HushWhisper]

Jesus is not God. Jesus has God's Holy Spirit within Him, but HE IS NOT GOD, according to the BIBLE.

[HushWhisper]

If you saw what my dad looked like, then you could say you've seen me. We look similar.

There is no verse in the bible that says Jesus is God. NONE.

[HappyMonkey]

It is "unjust", "jealous" and "petty" you fear, not me.

Eh? Never said I fear you.

I don't fear your god either. And according to the Bible he himself admits to being Jealous.He says so in Exodus. The same book is why he's petty and unjust. It's in his actions.

How is it just to punish someone because of the wrong doings of the father.

I worship a God of love. Who sent His Son to show me the path of having a relationship with God and Him and the Holy Spirit.

Who punishes children until the third generation, enslaves and dictates the rape of those who weren't his chosen people, without even appearing to them.

Who sends children to unending torment because they happened to be born to the wrong family.

You worship sin and I worship God.

What sin do I worship, pray?

Simple math, simple free will choice and you stop dancing around it. Waa you don't like it, so what.

Right. There's an enormous debate over what free will is, what it means, what implications it has.

For example, is someone with a mental illness fully capable for their actions?

Just because you ignore the debate doesn't mean it isn't real.

Stop looking for something you don't want.

Stop telling selling hate to something you can't stand.

I don't mind most Christians, and I can certainly stand you. And I certainly don't hate you.

Or read the words of the Gift from God and live and know them now, while its still your free will choice to do so.

I've read the Bible. I can say with simple honesty that I know more about it than most of the Christians I've met.

Most of the Old Testament apalls me, and much of the New Testament is at best ok.

The only real issues I have with it is the placement of men above women, both in Luke and Timothy, the forbiddence of divorce, the allowance of slavery, the instructing of men to leave their families, ect.

Oh, and the invention of hell. The Old Testament makes no mention of it, when you were dead you were dead.

Before 2 K/kings come to claim what belongs to them.

The generation that supposedly would live to see the next coming has all died. We've had apologetics for why that is for 2000 years. I'm not in any real rush of worry here.

[HappyMonkey]

It's not about intelligence, but the reasoning centers of the Brain.

It's more complex than that, but the belief of magic blood that saves is not rational.

Think about it, and why you are making excuses.

For the last time, I am not claiming it is rational.

I am saying that being religious does not bar one from having logic.

If I thought it was logical I'd be a theist.

[HappyMonkey]

Jesus is not God. Jesus has God's Holy Spirit within Him, but HE IS NOT GOD, according to the BIBLE.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

[Davros of Skaro]

You're describing the Christian system in such a deterministic and fatalistic way that naturally, yes, it would sound as though it defies all logic. But even though you are clearly against any kind of religion and any kind of theism, you do appear to know something about what we believe...so surely you know that most Christians do not view the system in this way?? You presuppose that God has determined everything and that free will does not exist. The whole process changes if one says that man has choice.

True or false?

God sent his Son to replace the Temple sacrifice for Sin atonement, so whoever believes in Jesus's sacrifice will be forgiven for Sin.One cannot live an eternal life with God without admitting to being a Sinner, and that Jesus cleanses Sin through his death & resurrection.

[Davros of Skaro]

For the last time, I am not claiming it is rational.

I am saying that being religious does not bar one from having logic.

If I thought it was logical I'd be a theist.

Logic is suspended in order to believe.

[HappyMonkey]

Logic is suspended in order to believe.

That's the best way you can state your point, however the entire point of apologetics is making the beliefs fit a logical framework.

The real test is whether such logical claims reflect reality.

And they don't. Something can be logical, but not true.

[Whisperer]

Well actually, this world is Hell and we are all here doing penance untill we learn to operate cooperatively in society....where else could you burn in the eternity of a shame or a deed you wished you never explored, only here...fail and you are thrown right back into the cauldron to start again and keep trying untill you do learn, then and only then will you be permitted to evolve into the world that threw you out in the first place.

When you start having memories of past existences then you should assure yourself that you are almost at the door of redemption...and no phony God is going to be there for you, only the truth of love learned.

You are burning in Hell right NOW.

[HushWhisper]

Eh? Never said I fear you.

I don't fear your god either. And according to the Bible he himself admits to being Jealous.He says so in Exodus. The same book is why he's petty and unjust. It's in his actions.

How is it just to punish someone because of the wrong doings of the father. You sin just like your dad, different maybe, but like him and like everyone else.

Who punishes children until the third generation, enslaves and dictates the rape of those who weren't his chosen people, without even appearing to them. The unjust shall see Him before they see hell.

Who sends children to unending torment because they happened to be born to the wrong family. Nope everyone can change regardless of family or cop-out statements as such.

What sin do I worship, pray?

Right. There's an enormous debate over what free will is, what it means, what implications it has.

For example, is someone with a mental illness fully capable for their actions? Only God knows the age of accountability with them. Ask Him.

Just because you ignore the debate doesn't mean it isn't real. Just because you initiate one doesn't make it true either.

I don't mind most Christians, and I can certainly stand you. And I certainly don't hate you.

I've read the Bible. I can say with simple honesty that I know more about it than most of the Christians I've met.

Most of the Old Testament apalls me, and much of the New Testament is at best ok.

The only real issues I have with it is the placement of men above women, both in Luke and Timothy, the forbiddence of divorce, the allowance of slavery, the instructing of men to leave their families, ect. Being that the Word of God/Bible is the MOST Published Book in History - I think its safe to say it has MERIT.

Oh, and the invention of hell. The Old Testament makes no mention of it, when you were dead you were dead. Guess someone got the memo in the New Testament, that it is real.

The generation that supposedly would live to see the next coming has all died. False.

[HappyMonkey]

Well actually, this world is Hell and we are all here doing penance untill we learn to operate cooperatively in society....where else could you burn in the eternity of a shame or a deed you wished you never explored, only here...fail and you are thrown right back into the cauldron to start again and keep trying untill you do learn, then and only then will you be permitted to evolve into the world that threw you out in the first place.

When you start having memories of past existences then you should assure yourself that you are almost at the door of redemption...and no phony God is going to be there for you, only the truth of love learned.

You are burning in Hell right NOW.

Except for all those people who are extremely successful doing things that do long term harm.

I have a problem with this logic, as it implies that those people who are born suffering, deserved it.

[Davros of Skaro]

That's the best way you can state your point, however the entire point of apologetics is making the beliefs fit a logical framework.

The real test is whether such logical claims reflect reality.

And they don't. Something can be logical, but not true.

I have yet found an apologist that makes logical sense.

Then again I am mostly sober while doing research.

[HushWhisper]

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

Jesus and I are one.

Does that make me Jesus?

The verse is referring to 'they are of the same spirit- it makes them 1 together.

[Marcus Aurelius]

True or false?

God sent his Son to replace the Temple sacrifice for Sin atonement, so whoever believes in Jesus's sacrifice will be forgiven for Sin.One cannot live an eternal life with God without admitting to being a Sinner, and that Jesus cleanses Sin through his death & resurrection.

While I believe this to be generally true, yes; you are still defaulting back towards a deterministic process; which I do not accept. Why does sin exist? I say it does because of choice.

As an aside, I am not a fundamentalist. So can one have eternal life without being a Christian? I would say yes. Paul writes of those who live in accordance of the Law but do not possess the Law as being a Law unto themselves. I believe this comes to us in the form of the conscience; thus people who follow what is true from other religions, even atheists and agnostics who are good people can be 'saved.' As C.S. Lewis said, there will be 'many in heaven whom we would not expect' to be there. This is part of my contention with what the fundamentalists were saying to the original poster's OT on this thread. I disagree with that position.

Logic is suspended in order to believe.

This depends on how you define logic and how logic originates in the first place. If we have arrived at logic through purely naturalistic means and have adapted and evolved for survivability rather than truth; should we not question our logical capabilities and our ability to arrive at any kind of truth altogether??

Edited May 25, 2014 by Marcus Aurelius

[HappyMonkey]

You sin just like your dad, different maybe, but like him and like everyone else.

Not my mother though? Heh.

Could you try being a bit more specific.

The unjust shall see Him before they see hell.

What exactly is unjust to you? It seems that you are for rape, murder, enslavery, so long as your god says it 's ok.

Only God knows the age of accountability with them. Ask Him.

Well it depends. Is it thirteen? Are you born wicked, so even a newborn will go to hell? Is it the age of eight?

Read your Bible, come back to me.

Just because you initiate one doesn't make it true either.

I didn't initiate one. Christians did. Because of concerns like I mentioned earlier.

Being that the Word of God/Bible is the MOST Published Book in History - I think its safe to say it has MERIT.

Not really. Popularity != merit. Twilight is popular, and it's crap.

Even so, which version are you talking about?

Guess someone got the memo in the New Testament, that it is real.

Or the religion was influenced by the other religions that had a underworld. It is called Hades for a reason, after all.

Likewise, we have clear information both from the Jews and the Old Testament that all there was was the grave. Such as when Sammuel was summoned from the grave.

False.

True.

Unless you are proposing immortals out there somewhere.

Edited May 25, 2014 by HappyMonkey

[HappyMonkey]

Jesus and I are one.

Does that make me Jesus?

The verse is referring to 'they are of the same spirit- it makes them 1 together.

Except he also refers to himself as I am, that he had existed long before Abraham, and that language use which was recognized by the Jews as identifying himself as God.

It is clear from other parts of the NT that Jesus as portrayed saw himself and god as interchangeable.

[HushWhisper]

Not my mother though? Heh.

Could you try being a bit more specific. "EVERYBODY".

What exactly is unjust to you? It seems that you are for rape, murder, enslavery, so long as your god says it 's ok. Wait are you reading and remembering? So if God does the condemning it's ok?, but I thought you said it was a problem for you? "unjust" are those who didn't do nothing but make excuses- like you.

Well it depends. Is it thirteen? Are you born wicked, so even a newborn will go to hell? Is it the age of eight?

Read your Bible, come back to me. The age of accountability is God's choice with each of us, not what you think.

I didn't initiate one. Christians did. Because of concerns like I mentioned earlier. "concerns"? Laughable.

Not really. Popularity != merit. Twilight is popular, and it's crap. - is a lie. It's the most Published book in History- FACT.

Even so, which version are you talking about?

Or the religion was influenced by the other religions that had a underworld. It is called Hades for a reason, after all.

True.

Unless you are proposing immortals out there somewhere.

If all what you say is what you'll say when you stand before Him - good luck with that.

[Davros of Skaro]

While I believe this to be generally true, yes; you are still defaulting back towards a deterministic process; which I do not accept. Why does sin exist? I say it does because of choice.

That's the root of your belief.

Sin is a Man made concept.

As an aside, I am not a fundamentalist. So can one have eternal life without being a Christian? I would say yes. Paul writes of those who live in accordance of the Law but do not possess the Law as being a Law unto themselves. I believe this comes to us in the form of the conscience; thus people who follow what is true from other religions, even atheists and agnostics who are good people can be 'saved.' As C.S. Lewis said, there will be 'many in heaven whom we would not expect' to be there. This is part of my contention with what the fundamentalists were saying to the original poster's OT on this thread. I disagree with that position.

Then like many others you cherry pick your own doctrine.

This depends on how you define logic and how logic originates in the first place. If we have arrived at logic through purely naturalistic means and have adapted and evolved for survivability rather than truth; should we not question our logical capabilities and our ability to arrive at any kind of truth altogether??

Logic is logic, and just because some people bend, or throw it away does not negate it.

[HushWhisper]

Except he also refers to himself as I am, -Scripture you're referring to please. that he had existed long before Abraham, Jesus was here before this world was even made. and that language use which was recognized by the Jews as identifying himself as God. Most Jews do not recognize Jesus as God

It is clear from other parts of the NT that Jesus as portrayed saw himself and god as interchangeable. False- provide scripture.

[libstaK]

Personally, I think it is fruitless to discuss a theists position on Jesus and God with someone who has already labelled you an "apologist".

Nevertheless, the experience of the OP on the christian forum is no better. Bigotry is a danger that the human race needs to face when they are applying their logic regardless of their personal stance on a subject, theist, atheist, agnostic etc. It is subtle self deception to believe you have made a case in logic or in faith if you have to resort to such measures to progress your position. Like attracts like, anger begets anger, hatred begets hatred, judgement begets judgement etc.

Thus the circular argument begins and ends, no one changes or discovers anything new in their position but at least people have a chance to "vent" I suppose.

[HushWhisper]

Personally, I think it is fruitless to discuss a theists position on Jesus and God with someone who has already labelled you an "apologist".

Nevertheless, the experience of the OP on the christian forum is no better. Bigotry is a danger that the human race needs to face when they are applying their logic regardless of their personal stance on a subject, theist, atheist, agnostic etc. It is subtle self deception to believe you have made a case in logic or in faith if you have to resort to such measures to progress your position. Like attracts like, anger begets anger, hatred begets hatred, judgement begets judgement etc.

Thus the circular argument begins and ends, no one changes or discovers anything new in their position but at least people have a chance to "vent" I suppose.

What you just did was no different then what you said as you were pointing the finger.

[GoldenWolf]

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

2 Corinthians 4:4

[Davros of Skaro]

Personally, I think it is fruitless to discuss a theists position on Jesus and God with someone who has already labelled you an "apologist".

The Apologist William Lane Craig said that any evidence presented to him to show him wrong is only a trick, and he would reject it.

Edited May 25, 2014 by davros of skaro