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Therammo

[Merged] Infinite and eternal universe / multiverse

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Leonardo

Actually if everything is infinite and eternal, that means that anything you can imagine will or has already occured. http://en.wikipedia....key_theorem <<<<< please read this.

Again, infinity does not imply infinite variety. Infinite monkey theorem is not a valid analogy for the scenario you propose, because an infinite universe (or even an infinite multiverse) does not have to contain infinite variety (the "random factor" in IMT).

SMK,

I wonder about this myself. If your statement were true, however, flipping a coin 1000 times would not result in a probability of 50% heads and 50% tails landing. Every flip would have a random result. The 50/50 result doesn't fit inside my head, but it seems to be true. It's like the coin knows to land 50/50.

Flipping a coin implies a 1-in-2 probability of either outcome. If you flip the coin twice (a scenario synonymous with the "playing a million 1-in-a-million games of chance" scenario) can you guarantee the result of the two coin tosses to be 1 heads and 1 tails?

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aka CAT

:-D Welcome, Therammo .

Hello, everyone. Since asserting, in “Where Do Our Thoughts Physically Exist?,”

the theory of the multiverse comes closest to scientifically explaining certain

bizarre happenings, I have followed this thread with great interest-- thanks to

your input, of course.

Therammo:

The problem I face with the idea of multiverse and infinity is that [...]everything that CAN happen WILL eventually happen [...]

[...] if we are living in infinite multiverse that you will in fact be born again and experience everything that CAN by chance happen [...in every walk of life from

king to peasant, tyrant to slave ...&c]

CAT:

That, with God, all things are possible doesn’t make everything equally probable.

Leonardo

[...] As for the notion that, in a multiverse of infinite universes everything will occur - that is not necessarily true [...]

As for your 'lottery' analogy, if you have a 1-in-a-million chance to win a lottery, then playing 1 million lottery games does not guarantee 1 win. Each 'play' is a separate event, and so you always only have a 1-in-a-million chance to win.

CAT:

For reasons beyond that a million lottery tickets doesn’t guarantee a winner

where the odds of winning are “1-in-a-million,” I agree with your first statement.

Implied is higher purpose. Such purposefulness is empowering. Divinely

empowered, I am not doomed to endlessly suffer karma as evil incarnated.

Therammo

Actually if everything is infinite and eternal, that means that anything you can imagine will or has already occured. http://en.wikipedia....key_theorem <<<<< please read this.

CAT:

The theory called for an immortal monkey and, even so, suggested he would never type the works of Shakespeare. After all, a monkey is a monkey.

Nighthawk9653

[...] the way I believe in the multiverse theory is that it's all happening simultaneously [i.e. supposing multiverse theory one of multiplicity where “we move on to other lives”...]

[...] you could also go the route of thinking of it like a continuously branching tree instead. From the moment of my birth, decisions were made, and each decision and it's consequences all branched off into their own world and the decision and consequences kept happening so there's a continuously branching system going on here.

CAT:

The multiverse does seem conducive to simultaneous incarnations and, perhaps,

duplications-- hellish in the movie “Triangle,” which poses, for the possibility of

one’s getting stuck in a time loop, the more reason for his living prayerfully.

I liked your tree analogy, though I can but wonder how the branches might

alternatively represent wise or poor decision making. For example:

Would only some branches providently reach for the sun, light?-- and fruit? How

many of the others would fall into disuse before the tree itself would wither? Or,

what about thorny trees with clingy vines for branches?

Therammo

Yes, the problem with this theory is, in other life or dimension you have aids, and you are imprisoned and tortured while you get sexually abused. Dont get me wrong, but everything that has a possibility will happen. And this thought just makes me sick and mad..

CAT:

Understand the difference between possibilities and eventualities, e.g.

A penitent Christian believes karma halted from inside out as divine

forgiveness nulls eternal consequence. However, while absolution isn’t

impunity from repercussions in this life, our being both encouraged and rewarded

for living to learn does impel progress.

Know the HIV is one of about 80 different types of autoimmune diseases,

which, for the most part, are not communicable. For example,

“What do rheumatoid arthritis (RA), type 1 diabetes, Graves' disease, and multiple

sclerosis have in common? One affects joints, another blood sugar. One puts the

thyroid into “overdrive.” And the last condition affects the brain and spinal cord.

Although the diseases seem pretty different, there is one common denominator.

They are all believed to be autoimmune diseases”--WebMD.

Furthermore, you might be surprised by how many UM members have suffered

many, most or, even, all of the hardships that you listed.

Lord, have mercy.

StarMountainKid

In a multiverse, why are you you in this universe? If there are other 'you's', why are you not one of them instead?

CAT:

You’re the original.

Heard of dimensions before? Or maybe I already lived before this life, or my next life will be ?

...And Hitler was killed in WWI; or he won WWII by not invading Russia;

or he was killed in 1943 by operation Valkyrie and his much smarter generals took over;

or USA wanted to defeat Russia and England and joined the Nazis;

or the Nazis built the A-bomb first;

or Napoleon had won;

or the Roman Empire never collapsed;

or Columbus' ship had sunk...

...or the meteor had missed Earth, thus, the dinosaurs were not killed and still walk around, or somehow evolved to make the internet instead of Homo Sapiens.

CAT:

Thank goodness, faith frees me from endless speculation.

StarMountainKid

Then there is an eternal personal ego' that is always you? Then all the other 'you's' are not really you, especially if they exist at the same time as 'you' but in alternate universes. I think my question still remains unanswered.

CAT

I think we must voluntarily let go of ‘personal ego’ to become one in the Sacred

Heart, for reasons eloquently stated by markdohle in the conclusion of

"Deeper in and higher up."

you know what molecules can exist at diffirent places same time ?

Okay, but if you exist in different places at the same time, which one is the 'you' you are conscious of right now? And why this 'you' and not some other 'you'?

What if Im conscious right now in this dimension, and ALSO conscious at same time there?

That would imply two separate consciousness. If somehow both 'you's' could meet, would both consciousnesses meld into one? Or, would you be you, and the other you appear as someone else?

They cant meet eachother, dimensions cant meld.

Probably not. Then there's "Quantum Suicide and Immortality". In which it is impossible to die, as , in effect, you are always alive in some alternate universe.

http://en.wikipedia....and_immortality

CAT:

A shared experience convinced me that God, in regard to matters sacred,

confirms His will in others by transporting them in a way that is somewhat

consistent with the subject theory, e.g., with time slips, the subjects might

only be aware of their suddenly being elsewhere.

spacecowboy342

I think, not only will every possible outcome happen but will happen an infinite number of times. This is near mathematical certainty. This is true, not only in the multiverse scenario, but if this universe is infinite

CAT:

Your idea of reality is how I imagine hell.

I am sure that I know far less than you. But metaphysics says that every decision that you make, there is a new dimension that splits off and lives the option that you didn't take, with a speck of you in it. There are at least three different unrelated sources for this concept, different people reaching the same conclusions in far different lives.

Sounds like the "many worlds" theory in quantum mechanics. A valid idea but it seems implausible to me that a different reality would be created for each of the quintillion or so differences caused by the jostling of a glass of water.

CAT:

My belief in a higher purpose suggests such alter realities pertinent only to

major life-altering decisions.

Edited by aka CAT

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regeneratia

Sounds like the "many worlds" theory in quantum mechanics. A valid idea but it seems implausible to me that a different reality would be created for each of the quintillion or so differences caused by the jostling of a glass of water.

Maybe dimensions are not as full of boundries as we once thought. Maybe they are everywhere, all the time, in every moment of the day. Maybe the unnumerable dimensions are manipulated by the mind. What do we really KNOW about dimensions, from this particular perception of modern science?

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regeneratia

:-D Welcome, Therammo .

Hello, everyone. Since asserting, in “Where Do Our Thoughts Physically Exist?,”

the theory of the multiverse comes closest to scientifically explaining certain

bizarre happenings, I have followed this thread with great interest-- thanks to

your input, of course.

Therammo:

The problem I face with the idea of multiverse and infinity is that [...]everything that CAN happen WILL eventually happen [...]

[...] if we are living in infinite multiverse that you will in fact be born again and experience everything that CAN by chance happen [...in every walk of life from

king to peasant, tyrant to slave ...&c]

CAT:

That, with God, all things are possible doesn’t make everything equally probable.

Leonardo

[...] As for the notion that, in a multiverse of infinite universes everything will occur - that is not necessarily true [...]

As for your 'lottery' analogy, if you have a 1-in-a-million chance to win a lottery, then playing 1 million lottery games does not guarantee 1 win. Each 'play' is a separate event, and so you always only have a 1-in-a-million chance to win.

CAT:

For reasons beyond that a million lottery tickets doesn’t guarantee a winner

where the odds of winning are “1-in-a-million,” I agree with your first statement.

Implied is higher purpose. Such purposefulness is empowering. Divinely

empowered, I am not doomed to endlessly suffer karma as evil incarnated.

Therammo

Actually if everything is infinite and eternal, that means that anything you can imagine will or has already occured. http://en.wikipedia....key_theorem <<<<< please read this.

CAT:

The theory called for an immortal monkey and, even so, suggested he would never type the works of Shakespeare. After all, a monkey is a monkey.

Nighthawk9653

[...] the way I believe in the multiverse theory is that it's all happening simultaneously [i.e. supposing multiverse theory one of multiplicity where “we move on to other lives”...]

[...] you could also go the route of thinking of it like a continuously branching tree instead. From the moment of my birth, decisions were made, and each decision and it's consequences all branched off into their own world and the decision and consequences kept happening so there's a continuously branching system going on here.

CAT:

The multiverse does seem conducive to simultaneous incarnations and, perhaps,

duplications-- hellish in the movie “Triangle,” which poses, for the possibility of

one’s getting stuck in a time loop, the more reason for his living prayerfully.

I liked your tree analogy, though I can but wonder how the branches might

alternatively represent wise or poor decision making. For example:

Would only some branches providently reach for the sun, light?-- and fruit? How

many of the others would fall into disuse before the tree itself would wither? Or,

what about thorny trees with clingy vines for branches?

Therammo

Yes, the problem with this theory is, in other life or dimension you have aids, and you are imprisoned and tortured while you get sexually abused. Dont get me wrong, but everything that has a possibility will happen. And this thought just makes me sick and mad..

CAT:

Understand the difference between possibilities and eventualities, e.g.

A penitent Christian believes karma halted from inside out as divine

forgiveness nulls eternal consequence. However, while absolution isn’t

impunity from repercussions in this life, our being both encouraged and rewarded

for living to learn does impel progress.

Know the HIV is one of about 80 different types of autoimmune diseases,

which, for the most part, are not communicable. For example,

“What do rheumatoid arthritis (RA), type 1 diabetes, Graves' disease, and multiple

sclerosis have in common? One affects joints, another blood sugar. One puts the

thyroid into “overdrive.” And the last condition affects the brain and spinal cord.

Although the diseases seem pretty different, there is one common denominator.

They are all believed to be autoimmune diseases”--WebMD.

Furthermore, you might be surprised by how many UM members have suffered

many, most or, even, all of the hardships that you listed.

Lord, have mercy.

StarMountainKid

In a multiverse, why are you you in this universe? If there are other 'you's', why are you not one of them instead?

CAT:

You’re the original.

CAT:

Thank goodness, faith frees me from endless speculation.

StarMountainKid

Then there is an eternal personal ego' that is always you? Then all the other 'you's' are not really you, especially if they exist at the same time as 'you' but in alternate universes. I think my question still remains unanswered.

CAT

I think we must voluntarily let go of ‘personal ego’ to become one in the Sacred

Heart, for reasons eloquently stated by markdohle in the conclusion of

"Deeper in and higher up."

CAT:

A shared experience convinced me that God, in regard to matters sacred,

confirms His will in others by transporting them in a way that is somewhat

consistent with the subject theory, e.g., with time slips, the subjects might

only be aware of their suddenly being elsewhere.

spacecowboy342

I think, not only will every possible outcome happen but will happen an infinite number of times. This is near mathematical certainty. This is true, not only in the multiverse scenario, but if this universe is infinite

CAT:

Your idea of reality is how I imagine hell.

CAT:

My belief in a higher purpose suggests such alter realities pertinent only to

major life-altering decisions.

All decisions are life-altering, IMHO. However I respect your thought. The butterfly effect. Choosing to eat eggs or cereal for breakfast on a particular day indeed influences how you will behave throughout the day, how you respond to others, and how those others respond to others due to your response to them, and how others respond to others who respond to the person who responded to you who responded to what breakfast you decided to eat. The responsiblity is mind-numbing, and probably why it is not a wide-spread idea.

But then, if you know that the decision on everything that you didn't make goes on to create it's own life, lessens that sense of responsiblity a little, I would imagine. I wrote a short story about it all once, where the person switched to a different dimension to be with a person they loved who had, in the original dimension, died, yet lived in the other dimension where he didn't die, all based on choosing to kiss or not kiss at an early, innocent age. If she had kissed him, rather than being ultra-shy, in the original dimension, would he have lived and not died?

Maybe dimensions respond to consciousness, like the observer who influences the observed.

Edited by regeneratia

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StarMountainKid
Flipping a coin implies a 1-in-2 probability of either outcome. If you flip the coin twice (a scenario synonymous with the "playing a million 1-in-a-million games of chance" scenario) can you guarantee the result of the two coin tosses to be 1 heads and 1 tails?

No, but if you flip the coin 1000 times it is more probable to land 50/50 than 1000 'heads'. If we take this to be true, what happened to randomness in this sense?

Also, as I said above somewhere, Infinity is a strange concept, as in an infinity of universes there would be an infinite number of universes with various 'you's' in them, and an infinite number of universes without any 'you's' in them.

I think we have to consider this mufti-verse idea more carefully and closely. In the Wikepedia page for 'multi-verse we have Tegmark's four levels, Brian Green's nine types, criticism and other stuff. Then there is the many minds interpretation. There's a lot to think about here.

If we base our multi-verse on the collapse of the wave function or on decoherence, we have no fundamental understanding of wave function collapse or superposition in the first place, so how can we be certain that all these many-worlds or universes exist as a product of whatever we want to state as their origin?

More later...

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aka CAT

regeneratta et al,

Feel free to crop everything other than the exchange(s)

that you wish to comment upon in my previous post. And

do notice that I typed major life-altering decisions. Why

differentiate? Because I do not believe everything can be

explained by the four forces known to physics, I trust in

God versus wizardry; I trust superfluity has nothing to do

with the natural order of things, the beauty of things, for

my definition of beautiful is neither too much nor to little.

Edited by aka CAT

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Waspie_Dwarf

No, but if you flip the coin 1000 times it is more probable to land 50/50 than 1000 'heads'. If we take this to be true, what happened to randomness in this sense?

You are confusing probability with randomness. If I throw 3 dice I will get 7 far more times than I get 3 or 18, but that does not mean the out come is not random.

Ask yourself this, you have tossed your coin 999 times, can you be certain of the outcome of the 100oth toss or is it still 50/50? The answer is obviously still 50/50, the previous 999 throws do not influence the out come of the 1000th, they are separate and random events.

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StarMountainKid
You are confusing probability with randomness. If I throw 3 dice I will get 7 far more times than I get 3 or 18, but that does not mean the out come is not random.

Ask yourself this, you have tossed your coin 999 times, can you be certain of the outcome of the 100oth toss or is it still 50/50? The answer is obviously still 50/50, the previous 999 throws do not influence the out come of the 1000th, they are separate and random events.

In all this I've been attempting to agree with you! I think this has some relationship to all these Universes we're talking about. Would they all not be separate and random events? If their configurations are constrained by quantum events or choices we make in this universe, or whatever mechanism it's supposed to be, then the probabilities would be 1 for these kinds of alternate configurations. But there would also be purely random configurations, and both kinds of universes would be infinite in number.

But as I said before, this mega-verse would only be infinite into the past with no beginning. Looking into the future, would not there be only a finite number of universes, as all their configurations have not occurred yet. Unless the future has already happened. In this case, where is randomness and probabilities?

Is there a sort of event horizon determined by the 'now', the present moment?

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Leonardo

No, but if you flip the coin 1000 times it is more probable to land 50/50 than 1000 'heads'.

But that wasn't the scenario proposed. Therammo proposed that playing a 1-in-a-million game of chance a million times will inevitably result in a win. This is the same as saying that flipping a coin twice will inevitably result in a 'heads' (if 'heads' is called) - it is simply not true.

If we take this to be true, what happened to randomness in this sense?

No game of chance with a fixed probability is truly random in the results it provides.

Edited by Leonardo

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StarMountainKid
But that wasn't the scenario proposed. Therammo proposed that playing a 1-in-a-million game of chance a million times will inevitably result in a win. This is the same as saying that flipping a coin twice will inevitably result in a 'heads' (if 'heads' is called) - it is simply not true.

Relating this to the subject of this thread, in a million universes there may not be a single one with an alternate you in it. What are the probabilities of an alternate you(s) existing in an infinite mega-verse? On the quantum scale, all probabilities of a wave function collapse may be realized in alternate universes, but this exists only on the quantum scale.

I'm not convinced that in an infinite number of universes there will exist an infinite number of 'you's. In probability theory, the likelihood of two events occurring in combination is always less than the probability of either event occurring by itself. Taking this into account, it is less probable for another 'you' to exist in an alternate universe than for you to exist in this universe.

I'm just trying to look at this subject from different perspectives. Just to casually consider an infinite number of 'you's' exists in a mega-verse is fun to think about, but as I say I'm not convinced, especially by any evidence, of which there is none.

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Leonardo

I'm not convinced that in an infinite number of universes there will exist an infinite number of 'you's.

This depends on the 'type' of multiverse being considered. I suspect that Therammo, and others, are speaking of the "branching universe" hypothesis in which every possible choice leads to a slightly different 'universe' - but this hypothesis is purely philosophical and has no scientific basis. What I consider most likely of a 'multiverse' - if such a thing exists - is quite simply multiple, perhaps infinite, universes all completely independent of each other and all initiated by their own cosmic event such as initiated our universe. In this 'type' of multiverse, while the laws of physics are likely to be extremely similar amongst them, there is no 'branching' and so whatever exists in one universe has no 'relationship' to what exists in another.

However, this does not rule out the possibility of an analogue "you" and, if we consider an infinite number of universes in this multiverse, then there is a possibility of infinite "analogue you's" and any possibility when taken to infinity is always a certainty*.

*This still does not imply infinite variety, because that variety is not necessarily dependent on the infinite number of universes, but on the parameters (the physics) which must support the existence of any universe.

Edited by Leonardo

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StarMountainKid

I agree with your above post, Leonardo. There are those who would argue that a physical infinity does not or can not exist. I think time is a factor here. Can we even say that in a multi-verse, other universes existed in the past relative to our universe? Is time 'spread out' through the multi-verse in some linear manner, or does each universe contain its own 'time' unrelated to other universe's 'time'?

I say this because if time in our universe was created at the Big Bang, we cannot say that other universes existed 'before' ours.

Also, in a sense, all these infnite numbers of universes must already exist. How can 'choice' create a a branching off to create new universe (a new BB)? Only if that universe already exists is this possible to my mind. This would lead to the conclusion that this multi-verse, to be infinite, must already exist in its entirety in time. Every future 'choice' must already exist in some alternate universe, meaning the future has already happened.

Lastly, must there be only one multi-verse? Perhaps there are an infinite number of multi-verses. Why only one?

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Therammo

If the universe goes on in all possible directions, and in an infinite distance, then wouldn't that mean that there would have to be more planets out there (another universe?) If you have an infinite amount of space, then wouldn't there absolutely HAVE to be another universe out there (perhaps an infinite number of them?) And if there are an infinite number of universes, then that would mean that EVENTUALLY there would be another milky way galaxy, and everything that has happened here in 'our' galaxy, would happen the exact same in that galaxy. Also, there would be an infinite number of us, doing an infinite number of things. For example, in other worlds I have won the Nobel Peace Prize, the word 'fish' is a curse word, George Bush is a serial killer. I just want to know if that is possible.

http://curious.astro....php?number=476

Edited by Still Waters
Added source link

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and then

Welcome to UM! I guess your version is possible but why not think in terms of an infinite number of different souls/entities populating the space and time? That is just as possible I guess. Your way, nothing a person does means anything special because every other possible thing that they might ever do has happened or will happen as well.

:)

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Sir Wearer of Hats

Fishing Hell mate, you've opened a can of worms :P

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Therammo

Fishing Hell mate, you've opened a can of worms :P

why mate? :))

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toast

why mate? :))

Please be patient. :yes:

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aquatus1

First and foremost, please don't copy and paste without providing a link. It could be taken as plagiarism.

If the universe goes on in all possible directions, and in an infinite distance, then wouldn't that mean that there would have to be more planets out there (another universe?)

The universe is not considered to be infinite. It is finite, although it doesn't have any boundaries. There are certainly other planets out there, which has been confirmed through multiple means, but it has nothing to do with infinite distance.

If you have an infinite amount of space, then wouldn't there absolutely HAVE to be another universe out there (perhaps an infinite number of them?)

"Universe", by definition, encompasses everything we have access through in our reality, so there are no other "universes" out there that we could travel to in the way we travel to other planets.

And if there are an infinite number of universes, then that would mean that EVENTUALLY there would be another milky way galaxy, and everything that has happened here in 'our' galaxy, would happen the exact same in that galaxy.

Not really. The odds of that happening are infinitely higher than the odds of any universes even close to being identical going through heat death. Basically, the universes would die long before this occurs.

Also, there would be an infinite number of us, doing an infinite number of things. For example, in other worlds I have won the Nobel Peace Prize, the word 'fish' is a curse word, George Bush is a serial killer. I just want to know if that is possible.

Well, what you are talking about here isn't universes, but timelines, which are sixth dimension quantum physics stuff. If you want to think of it as possible, sure, there's no reason not to. It really isn't something that you can is scientifically proven or confirmed, or, anything like that. It's more of a thought exercise with currently accepted mainstream scientific theories.

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Leonardo

Surely this could have been posted in your other thread, Therammo, because it's basically the same question you are asking?

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DieChecker

If the universe goes on in all possible directions, and in an infinite distance, then wouldn't that mean that there would have to be more planets out there (another universe?) If you have an infinite amount of space, then wouldn't there absolutely HAVE to be another universe out there (perhaps an infinite number of them?) And if there are an infinite number of universes, then that would mean that EVENTUALLY there would be another milky way galaxy, and everything that has happened here in 'our' galaxy, would happen the exact same in that galaxy. Also, there would be an infinite number of us, doing an infinite number of things. For example, in other worlds I have won the Nobel Peace Prize, the word 'fish' is a curse word, George Bush is a serial killer. I just want to know if that is possible.

http://curious.astro....php?number=476

There may be parallel universes, but everything here is one universe. All the galaxies and all of space and time is one universe.

I'd say that there being another Earth and another George Bush, and so on, (inside our universe) is a very, very, very remote possibility, but not zero. Supposedly there is a chance of the mouse I'm using falling right through my desk, but those odds are also very small, so small that to my knowledge, I've not ever heard of such a thing happening.

I think Fish might more easily be a word for a serial killer and Bush being a curse word.

example:

"Go Bush yourself...!"

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taniwha

Even if you were infinitely big there would still only be one of you so how can it be any different for an infinitely huge universe?

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Therammo

There may be parallel universes, but everything here is one universe. All the galaxies and all of space and time is one universe.

I'd say that there being another Earth and another George Bush, and so on, (inside our universe) is a very, very, very remote possibility, but not zero. Supposedly there is a chance of the mouse I'm using falling right through my desk, but those odds are also very small, so small that to my knowledge, I've not ever heard of such a thing happening.

I think Fish might more easily be a word for a serial killer and Bush being a curse word.

example:

"Go Bush yourself...!"

Because if there are infinite universes, you / me will live again.. Its pretty obvious.

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Frank Merton

We can know if the universe is finite, since we might find its end or that it curves on itself. If however it goes on forever we will never know it since the "end" might always be just around the corner or the curvature (at the moment our best measurements indicate flat, which implies endless) could be detected in the next measurement.

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HappyMonkey

According to a few physicist friends of mine, the universe being either finite or infinite is still an open question.

And yes, if it is infinite and due to there only being a limited number of arrangements atoms can take, eventually it'd repeat.

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aka CAT
All decisions are life-altering
.

Decisions needn't be for fretting.

Until I can always do the best thing,

I can but hope to momently act in good conscience.

Peace be with you.

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