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Therammo

[Merged] Infinite and eternal universe / multiverse

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Frank Merton

These alternative beings out there in endless space and time who are repetitions of your molecules and atoms may look and think and behave like you do, but they aren't you.

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regeneratia

regeneratta et al,

Feel free to crop everything other than the exchange(s)

that you wish to comment upon in my previous post. And

do notice that I typed major life-altering decisions. Why

differentiate? Because I do not believe everything can be

explained by the four forces known to physics, I trust in

God versus wizardry; I trust superfluity has nothing to do

with the natural order of things, the beauty of things, for

my definition of beautiful is neither too much nor to little.

Only four known forces thus far. Science today is still in it's infancy. Since, every day there are breathtaking new discoveries, it is unreasonable to think that our modern science knows it all. In the mid-90's, it was found that we double our science knowldge base every three to five years, and probably faster now. Our modern science is in it's first-steps state. Of course, Los Alamos knows a lot more than our modern science does, knows science we are not allowed to know, so does their knowledge base count? In the 90's, flying with a young man who was headed to Los Alamos to be with his mentor, stated that his mentor stated that if we can IMAGINE IT, we now have the ability to bring it about. I think this is where metaphysics and science merge.

I think every decision, the road taken and the road NOT taken, create new dimensions. Many books on metaphysics state this.

Edited by regeneratia

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regeneratia

We can know if the universe is finite, since we might find its end or that it curves on itself. If however it goes on forever we will never know it since the "end" might always be just around the corner or the curvature (at the moment our best measurements indicate flat, which implies endless) could be detected in the next measurement.

Implicate, Explicate. But the question becomes, is the universe a closed system? Is it REALLY finite or merely growing?

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spacecowboy342

Again, infinity does not imply infinite variety. Infinite monkey theorem is not a valid analogy for the scenario you propose, because an infinite universe (or even an infinite multiverse) does not have to contain infinite variety (the "random factor" in IMT).

SMK,

Flipping a coin implies a 1-in-2 probability of either outcome. If you flip the coin twice (a scenario synonymous with the "playing a million 1-in-a-million games of chance" scenario) can you guarantee the result of the two coin tosses to be 1 heads and 1 tails?

The probability for infinite variety tends to infinity making it a near but not absolute mathematical certainty

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StarMountainKid
These alternative beings out there in endless space and time who are repetitions of your molecules and atoms may look and think and behave like you do, but they aren't you.

Excellent point, in my opinion. A perfect clone of you wouldn't be you, either. That clone's thoughts and behavior would drift apart from yours as time goes by, as well.

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Therammo

These alternative beings out there in endless space and time who are repetitions of your molecules and atoms may look and think and behave like you do, but they aren't you.

If they are duplicates of exact same atoms and molecyles like me, then its me.

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aquatus1
Because if there are infinite universes, you / me will live again.. Its pretty obvious.
And yes, if it is infinite and due to there only being a limited number of arrangements atoms can take, eventually it'd repeat.

In an infinite universe there are infinite arrangement. Why would anything repeat? Why would one assume there are limits to the number of arrangements atoms can take? It's like saying that numbers can only go so high.

If they are duplicates of exact same atoms and molecyles like me, then its me.

So, the radio that I carry and the radio my partner carries is actually just the one radio?

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Therammo

In an infinite universe there are infinite arrangement. Why would anything repeat? Why would one assume there are limits to the number of arrangements atoms can take? It's like saying that numbers can only go so high.

So, the radio that I carry and the radio my partner carries is actually just the one radio?

Radio doesnt consist of molecyles and atoms like a person does.

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StarMountainKid
If they are duplicates of exact same atoms and molecyles like me, then its me.

I think the whole universe that this exact duplicate 'you' lives in would also have to be an exact duplicate of our universe for the other 'you' to be...umm...you. Its evolved history would have to be exactly the same as ours. There would have to be no difference between the two universes, down to every quantum event since their respective Big Bangs.

The only difference would be that your consciousness in this universe is separate from the other 'you's' consciousness. I mean, you live in this universe and not in that other distant universe.

Why your present consciousness is in this universe and not in the other I don't know.

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Frank Merton

We know there are a limited number of "fundamental particles" (electrons, types of quarks, whatever) and a limited number of "forces" which influence what these particles do. The idea is our universe is endless. A universe with different particles and forces would be a different universe.

Don't worry though -- the separation between any two regions with the same history and hence duplicating each other has been calculated to be at minimum a number so big you needn't even try to comprehend it and vastly beyond the biggest numbers we encounter in dealing with the universe we know.

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Frank Merton

I dare say in the distant but not impossibly distant future it will be possible to build clones of ourselves that are identical, atom for atom, to us.

They won't be "us." They will be their own person with their own sentience and from the moment of being made onward they will develop differently from us.

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Therammo

I think the whole universe that this exact duplicate 'you' lives in would also have to be an exact duplicate of our universe for the other 'you' to be...umm...you. Its evolved history would have to be exactly the same as ours. There would have to be no difference between the two universes, down to every quantum event since their respective Big Bangs.

The only difference would be that your consciousness in this universe is separate from the other 'you's' consciousness. I mean, you live in this universe and not in that other distant universe.

Why your present consciousness is in this universe and not in the other I don't know.

What is your point exactly?

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aquatus1

Radio doesnt consist of molecyles and atoms like a person does.

Are...you kidding?

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Leonardo

The probability for infinite variety tends to infinity making it a near but not absolute mathematical certainty

No, because as I stated earlier, there are only certain permutations of physical 'laws' under which a universe may exist. Thus the "probability for infinite variety" does not tend to infinity, but is bound within a limited set which, being limited, reduces the "probability of infinite variety" to zero.

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Frank Merton

No, because as I stated earlier, there are only certain permutations of physical 'laws' under which a universe may exist. Thus the "probability for infinite variety" does not tend to infinity, but is bound within a limited set which, being limited, reduces the "probability of infinite variety" to zero.

Yea that's what I've always thought, but now I can see that it might not be so -- that the set might not be limited.

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spacecowboy342

I dare say in the distant but not impossibly distant future it will be possible to build clones of ourselves that are identical, atom for atom, to us.

They won't be "us." They will be their own person with their own sentience and from the moment of being made onward they will develop differently from us.

If they are atom by atom duplicates of us they will be indistinguishable from us and thus, as much us as we are

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spacecowboy342

No, because as I stated earlier, there are only certain permutations of physical 'laws' under which a universe may exist. Thus the "probability for infinite variety" does not tend to infinity, but is bound within a limited set which, being limited, reduces the "probability of infinite variety" to zero.

No the laws of probability state the odds would tend to 0 that all possible outcomes would occur in infinite roles of a die. I don't have time right now to look up the equation for this

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Frank Merton

If they are atom by atom duplicates of us they will be indistinguishable from us and thus, as much us as we are

Two rocks that are exact duplicates of each other and cannot be distinguished are still two rocks.

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taniwha

I dont think its possible to exist as a duplicate in another dimension as we are infinitely unique within this one. Progressing from the past into the future moment by moment may be the closest we can to experiencing being in 3 co~ existing dimensions simultaneously, Past, present, and future.

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aquatus1

If they are atom by atom duplicates of us they will be indistinguishable from us and thus, as much us as we are

Again, is my radio and my partner's radio one and the same radio?

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Waspie_Dwarf

Radio doesnt consist of molecyles and atoms like a person does.

Aquatus is not talking about the radio waves, he is talking about radio receivers which most definitely are made of atoms and molecules.

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Waspie_Dwarf

Again, is my radio and my partner's radio one and the same radio?

Your radio and your partner's radio are no more the same than identical twins are the same person.

However in the situations being discussed here the argument is not so clear cut. Even for a non-spiritual person, such as myself, a human is more than a collection of atoms and molecules. What makes you you is also the sum of your experiences and memories as well as your personality.

If there are an infinite universes with an infinite variety of you then there will be versions which are obviously different, however there will be some where the difference are incredibly subtle where, for existence, the alternate you picked a red M&M instead of a yellow one twenty years ago.

If an alternate you shares your personality, memories and experiences can you say for certain that it isn't you?

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StarMountainKid
What is your point exactly?

My point is, to be an exact copy of you in some alternate universe, your copy's psychological state of mind would have to be identical to the you that exists in this universe. All both 'you's' life experiences would need to be identical. For that to be, the past history of that universe would have to coincide with the history of this universe.

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aquatus1

My point is, to be an exact copy of you in some alternate universe, your copy's psychological state of mind would have to be identical to the you that exists in this universe. All both 'you's' life experiences would need to be identical. For that to be, the past history of that universe would have to coincide with the history of this universe.

And before we get into the whole "infinite universes" thing, let's remember that it kind of defeats the purpose of infinite possibilities to conjecture on indistinguishable replication; the whole point of "infinite possibilities" is to emphasize how many differences can exist.

If an alternate you shares your personality, memories and experiences can you say for certain that it isn't you?

Exactly!

How would we even recognize a perfectly identical universe as something separate from ourselves? It becomes a recursive error: You look through a magical alternate universe telescope and you see an image of yourself looking through a telescope. How would you know if you were looking at an identical universe or your own universe?

There is literally no way to tell, at least, not for us stuck in the 3rd dimension. A 4th or 5th dimensional creature might be able to, but for us simple little 3d'rs, the conjecture lacks usefulness. It can never be identified, detected, or derived, so is, for all intents and purposes, non-existent.

Edited by aquatus1

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Waspie_Dwarf

And before we get into the whole "infinite universes" thing, let's remember that it kind of defeats the purpose of infinite possibilities to conjecture on indistinguishable replication; the whole point of "infinite possibilities" is to emphasize how many differences can exist.

I totally disagree.

If there is an infinite number of universes then whilst it is true that there is an infinite capacity for variation there is also an infinite capacity for repetition. To embrace one with out embracing the other is, in my opinion, illogical. Both are equally fascinating and equally valid avenues to explore.

Edited by Waspie_Dwarf
typo.

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