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Therammo

[Merged] Infinite and eternal universe / multiverse

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aquatus1

Additionally, even if you did find one, it would still be two seperate "you's".

Also, I don't believe reincarnation works by transferring you to an alternate timeline, but that's just a personal opinion.

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taniwha

I understand the distinctions you make. Time lines were not in what I was talking about; I consider them an extravagant and unnecessary "solution" to the slit experiments.

The thing is if our present universe is big enough (and lord knows it got pretty big, we don't know how big, during the inflation, even assuming that the inflation is not still going on) there are regions of our universe that are forever beyond our contract because they are receding faster than light-speed. Such regions might well contain duplicates of us, if the universe is really, really big, just out of probability.

I dont think so but that doesnt mean that it is not so. I think we can at least be aware of 3 time dimensions >>> past present and future.

Space is created in 3 dimensions >>> width depth and height. Time and space are so proximate that they probably cant exist independantly so might even be considered one and the same thing. If you think about it space is just as much an illusion as time is when it comes to defining the boundaries of the universe because both are invisible and senseless without the inclusion of 3 dimensions of mass >>>.

Is this a case for or against duplicate selfs? Probably not.

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StarMountainKid

I still think any mega-verse, however one wants to define it, may be eternal but not necessarily infinite, as presumably new universes are being continuoulsly created.

If we look back into the past, from our perspective now in this universe, the mega-verse appears infinite considering it has had no specific moment of creation. However, when we look into the future of this mega-verse, there is always one more universe being created, so in this sense the mega-verse is not 'yet' infinite.

This is a sort of paradox of infinity if we think about a mega-verse as a whole. Just something to think about.

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Therammo

Pretty much all theories of this ilk are considered that by some physicist or another, multiverse theories included.

Yeah, it's that last part I disagree with.

The concept of infinite variation is integral and unavoidable to the Eternal Inflation hypothesis (considering that its current validity is based on "not being wrong" in regards to the dark matter energy calculation). There is nothing, however, in the Eternal Inflation argument that requires infinite repetition. At best, it can be considered an extension of the logic (although I still maintain that the logic in the conclusion of "infinite variety = infinite repetition" to be questionable primae facie).

Considering that we are already dealing with one hypothesis, based on another hypothesis, supporting itself by, well...not being ruled out by a cosmological calculation it didn't actually predict...

Even for theoretical physics dealing with infinite expansion of reality itself, that's quite a stretch.

"Infinite variation" is a requirement for the Eternal Inflation hypothesis to remain valid. "Infinite replication" is...well...quantum physics head-canon.

I have no idea what you are saying to be honest..

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StarMountainKid

Another thought of mine is, in all these infinite number of universes, each universe would have an infinite number of variations of it, and each variation universe would have an infinit number of variations of it...and on and on to infinity after infinity, so to say.

This makes for a lot of universes, especially if every quantum probability distribution is realized in some alternate universe for every universe.

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spacecowboy342

Two rocks that are exact duplicates of each other and cannot be distinguished are still two rocks.

Two subatomic particles with identical properties are essentially interchangeable and thus two entities constructed of such would have equal claim to authenticity

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aquatus1

And both would be correct. They would be two authentic entities.

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aquatus1

I have no idea what you are saying to be honest..

Basically, "infinite variety" of universes are required for the "Eternal Inflation" hypothesis (the big cheese thing) you side with ("support" is a bit too strong for your level of understanding), whereas "infinite replication" is not required or supported by the hypothesis.

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spacecowboy342

And both would be correct. They would be two authentic entities.

Two identical authentic entities.

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Therammo

Basically, "infinite variety" of universes are required for the "Eternal Inflation" hypothesis (the big cheese thing) you side with ("support" is a bit too strong for your level of understanding), whereas "infinite replication" is not required or supported by the hypothesis.

Ok so basically everything I heard from the documentary about multiverse and the idea of that we in fact might live again, because space is eternal and there are infinite amount of universes, where there is actual replica of me, is basically bulls ? :D

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Frank Merton

Ok so basically everything I heard from the documentary about multiverse and the idea of that we in fact might live again, because space is eternal and there are infinite amount of universes, where there is actual replica of me, is basically bulls ? :D

That's my view of it. Copies of me may exist out there without end, but I have no way of knowing it, and they are copies, they are not me and have their own sentience.

I get the feeling we are kinda like Ulysses here exploring unknown islands and finding monsters. When the islands are actually explored new things will be found, but they won't seem as monstrous.

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Therammo

That's my view of it. Copies of me may exist out there without end, but I have no way of knowing it, and they are copies, they are not me and have their own sentience.

I get the feeling we are kinda like Ulysses here exploring unknown islands and finding monsters. When the islands are actually explored new things will be found, but they won't seem as monstrous.

Think about this for a moment... Our universe came to existence caused by ''big bang'' right? Now, we dont know what cause the big bang, but in my opinion, if big bang came to existence of something, I dont see why there shouldnt be infinite amount of other big bangs all the time outside our universe. You get my point?

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Frank Merton

If the big bang happened as we now think it happened, there is no reason to think it hasn't happened before, probably no end of times before. I didn't think that was even at issue here.

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spacecowboy342

Ok so basically everything I heard from the documentary about multiverse and the idea of that we in fact might live again, because space is eternal and there are infinite amount of universes, where there is actual replica of me, is basically bulls ? :D

An infinite universe almost certainly means infinite copies of us somewhere. In fact, mathematically it is more likely for copies of us to arise from random fluctuations than for us to have evolved the way we did, making me doubt if infinities have any realities other than as mathematical constructs

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Therammo

If the big bang happened as we now think it happened, there is no reason to think it hasn't happened before, probably no end of times before. I didn't think that was even at issue here.

So basically ask yourself this; If it happened for eternity, the odds of you living again is 100 %, because if all molecyles and atoms are places EXACT same way as our universe is, then you sir will live again.

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aquatus1

Ok so basically everything I heard from the documentary about multiverse and the idea of that we in fact might live again, because space is eternal and there are infinite amount of universes, where there is actual replica of me, is basically bulls ? :D

I wouldn't go so far as to call it BS, but it is conjecture on the physicist's part, and when physicists do that, the filmmakers have a tendency to run with, more often than not exaggerating it beyond its actual merits.

But yeah, within our understanding of it, there is no replica of you out there, and even if there was, it would not be "you".

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aquatus1

Think about this for a moment... Our universe came to existence caused by ''big bang'' right? Now, we dont know what cause the big bang, but in my opinion, if big bang came to existence of something, I dont see why there shouldnt be infinite amount of other big bangs all the time outside our universe. You get my point?

Well, that is the current thinking in quantum science.

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Frank Merton

So basically ask yourself this; If it happened for eternity, the odds of you living again is 100 %, because if all molecyles and atoms are places EXACT same way as our universe is, then you sir will live again.

That's a nice fantasy and touches on the deep philosophical question of personal identity. Not only would "I" live again, but every possible variation of me would live again, and again, and again. While I don't deny the probabilities, these copies of me out there are not me. My mind has no connection with them.

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aquatus1

An infinite universe almost certainly means infinite copies of us somewhere. In fact, mathematically it is more likely for copies of us to arise from random fluctuations than for us to have evolved the way we did, making me doubt if infinities have any realities other than as mathematical constructs

So basically ask yourself this; If it happened for eternity, the odds of you living again is 100 %, because if all molecyles and atoms are places EXACT same way as our universe is, then you sir will live again.

Guys, come on. We just went through eight pages of this. If you didn't understand something from before, ask about it, but don't just repost the stuff from the first page again and ignore the time and effort people put into explaining everything.

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Therammo

I wouldn't go so far as to call it BS, but it is conjecture on the physicist's part, and when physicists do that, the filmmakers have a tendency to run with, more often than not exaggerating it beyond its actual merits.

But yeah, within our understanding of it, there is no replica of you out there, and even if there was, it would not be "you".

Ok but can you tell me, what does make 'ME' so unique ? Is it the atoms or ? I mean if the same disposition of atoms that makes 'ME' me, then I guess if it goes same order next time , its basically creating me again..

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Therammo

That's a nice fantasy and touches on the deep philosophical question of personal identity. Not only would "I" live again, but every possible variation of me would live again, and again, and again. While I don't deny the probabilities, these copies of me out there are not me. My mind has no connection with them.

I agree with you on the first one, but what makes you think these copies are not ''you'' ?

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aquatus1

Ok but can you tell me, what does make 'ME' so unique ? Is it the atoms or ? I mean if the same disposition of atoms that makes 'ME' me, then I guess if it goes same order next time , its basically creating me again..

Nonsense. You are no Lego creation, identical to another created in exactly the same way, just as no twin, no matter how perfectly identical, is just one and the same, just as no two radios, or two rocks, no matter how identical down to the atom, are one and the same. Existence is more than mere construction. Even in our own universe, we recognize the significance and influence of location, environment, time, as well as less objective influences such as society, politics, and context. Adding in yet factor, this one on the level of an entirely separate universe is not going to reduce the number of differences.

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Therammo

Nonsense. You are no Lego creation, identical to another created in exactly the same way, just as no twin, no matter how perfectly identical, is just one and the same, just as no two radios, or two rocks, no matter how identical down to the atom, are one and the same. Existence is more than mere construction. Even in our own universe, we recognize the significance and influence of location, environment, time, as well as less objective influences such as society, politics, and context. Adding in yet factor, this one on the level of an entirely separate universe is not going to reduce the number of differences.

You seem to have strong knowledge, so I will not deny your statements, but maybe its me who misunderstood the concept of infinity and eternity.. Afterall I hope we only live once and perish forever. I will not live again!

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StarMountainKid

This is all very interesting, but I think we have to remember there is no authority with absolute knowledge of this subject. We are speculating here, and until some physicist wins the Nobel Prize for conclusively proving or disproving the existance of an eternal infinite mega-verse our discussion here is just that...speculation without emperical evidence.

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aquatus1

Correct. The best we can do is make an effort to understand the ideas presented by these physicist as best we can, and not simply run with whatever we decide to interpret from them.

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