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Therammo

[Merged] Infinite and eternal universe / multiverse

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StarMountainKid

I guess this thread is about used up by now, but one last thought. I"m thinking about negative probabilities. I was watchng a video of the physicist Murray Gel-Mann in which he mentioned negative probabilities. I must say I don't know what he meant.

However, if we flip a coin, in a perfict experiment, there is a 50-50% probability it will land on heads or land on tails. There is also a negative probability the coin will not land on heads or that it will not land on tails.

From this, in an infinite eternal mega-verse, would it not include these kinds of negative probabilities? The negative probability that there are no universes with alternate 'you's' in them would be equally probable as the probability that there are universes with alternate 'you's' in them.

So, even considering an infinite eternal mega-verse, each probability being equally probable, I don't think we can speculate with any assurance that a mega-verse will in actuallity contain any alternate 'you's' in it.

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Therammo

I guess this thread is about used up by now, but one last thought. I"m thinking about negative probabilities. I was watchng a video of the physicist Murray Gel-Mann in which he mentioned negative probabilities. I must say I don't know what he meant.

However, if we flip a coin, in a perfict experiment, there is a 50-50% probability it will land on heads or land on tails. There is also a negative probability the coin will not land on heads or that it will not land on tails.

From this, in an infinite eternal mega-verse, would it not include these kinds of negative probabilities? The negative probability that there are no universes with alternate 'you's' in them would be equally probable as the probability that there are universes with alternate 'you's' in them.

So, even considering an infinite eternal mega-verse, each probability being equally probable, I don't think we can speculate with any assurance that a mega-verse will in actuallity contain any alternate 'you's' in it.

There will be universes with only ''heads'' and universes only ''tails'' and universes having neither of those (negative)

So all in all, infinity means all possibilities will happen, just in diffirent places and with own set of physic law

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StarMountainKid
There will be universes with only ''heads'' and universes only ''tails'' and universes having neither of those (negative)

So all in all, infinity means all possibilities will happen, just in diffirent places and with own set of physic law

If all possibilities will happen, then the possibility that none of the universes have alternate 'you's' in them will happen.

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Therammo

If all possibilities will happen, then the possibility that none of the universes have alternate 'you's' in them will happen.

Yes, but the will also be infinite number of universes having ''me'' ?

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StarMountainKid
Yes, but the will also be infinite number of universes having ''me'' ?

Let's say an infinite mega-verse contains an infinite subset of universes with "me" in them. Also the infinite mega-verse contains an infinite subset of universes with no "me" in them. So we can say there are only two kinds of universes, those with "me" in them, and those without "me" in them.

At first thought, the probability of this being true of an infinite mega-verse would be 100%. However, if in such a mega-verse, would not all probabilities or possibilities be true? In this sense, the probability that all the universes have a "me" in them, and the probability that none of the universes have a "me" in them would both also be true.

Does a mega-verse with an infinite number of universes require an infinite number of universes with "me's' in them and an infinite number of universes with no "me's" in them, plus the mega-verse would contain an infinite number of universes all with "me's" in them, and the mega-verse would contain an infinite number of universes all with no "me's" in them.

This would be true if all probabilities actualize. In my view, an infinite mega-verse is not as simple as one might consider at first thought. If we consider the topology of our universe to be flat, then it is infinite in volume and unbounded. So each universe in an infinite mega-verse is infinite as well. If this is so, is each universe infinite in the same sense as the mega-verse, containing all the possibilities of the mega-verse itself?

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Therammo

Let's say an infinite mega-verse contains an infinite subset of universes with "me" in them. Also the infinite mega-verse contains an infinite subset of universes with no "me" in them. So we can say there are only two kinds of universes, those with "me" in them, and those without "me" in them.

At first thought, the probability of this being true of an infinite mega-verse would be 100%. However, if in such a mega-verse, would not all probabilities or possibilities be true? In this sense, the probability that all the universes have a "me" in them, and the probability that none of the universes have a "me" in them would both also be true.

Does a mega-verse with an infinite number of universes require an infinite number of universes with "me's' in them and an infinite number of universes with no "me's" in them, plus the mega-verse would contain an infinite number of universes all with "me's" in them, and the mega-verse would contain an infinite number of universes all with no "me's" in them.

This would be true if all probabilities actualize. In my view, an infinite mega-verse is not as simple as one might consider at first thought. If we consider the topology of our universe to be flat, then it is infinite in volume and unbounded. So each universe in an infinite mega-verse is infinite as well. If this is so, is each universe infinite in the same sense as the mega-verse, containing all the possibilities of the mega-verse itself?

Infinite multiversen would contain ANYTHING , it means there will be mega-verses , but they will be nothing to relevance to the infinite size of multiverse, since the multiverse itself is infinite and eternal in size. The term relativity is so important in this case, because to us the mega-verse you talk about, is maybe unreachable in size, but in terms of infinity of the multiverse itself, its nothing..

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spacecowboy342

I guess this thread is about used up by now, but one last thought. I"m thinking about negative probabilities. I was watchng a video of the physicist Murray Gel-Mann in which he mentioned negative probabilities. I must say I don't know what he meant.

However, if we flip a coin, in a perfict experiment, there is a 50-50% probability it will land on heads or land on tails. There is also a negative probability the coin will not land on heads or that it will not land on tails.

From this, in an infinite eternal mega-verse, would it not include these kinds of negative probabilities? The negative probability that there are no universes with alternate 'you's' in them would be equally probable as the probability that there are universes with alternate 'you's' in them.

So, even considering an infinite eternal mega-verse, each probability being equally probable, I don't think we can speculate with any assurance that a mega-verse will in actuallity contain any alternate 'you's' in it.

It is a near mathematical certainty that if there are infinite numbers of infinite universes then every possible type of universe, including those that contain versions of me and those that don't will repeat infinitely

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Therammo

It is a near mathematical certainty that if there are infinite numbers of infinite universes then every possible type of universe, including those that contain versions of me and those that don't will repeat infinitely

So you agree with me?

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StarMountainKid

One thing about infinite is, there's always room for one more, so is an infinite set really infinite? In an infinite set, there is also room for an infinite number of additions. It gets complicated, though

Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel.

http://en.wikipedia....the_Grand_Hotel

As an aside, Rudy Rucker's novel 'White Light' is interesting to read about.

http://en.wikipedia....e_Light_(novel)

So, in an infinite universe or mega-universe or multi-universe, some odd places and events exist, like Rucker's 'White Light' planet, Cimon.

Must all imagined and imaginable as well as non-imaginable places and events occur in this infinity of universes?

Edited by StarMountainKid

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Therammo

One thing about infinite is, there's always room for one more, so is an infinite set really infinite? In an infinite set, there is also room for an infinite number of additions. It gets complicated, though

Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel.

http://en.wikipedia....the_Grand_Hotel

As an aside, Rudy Rucker's novel 'White Light' is interesting to read about.

http://en.wikipedia....e_Light_(novel)

So, in an infinite universe or mega-universe or multi-universe, some odd places and events exist, like Rucker's 'White Light' planet, Cimon.

Must all imagined and imaginable as well as non-imaginable places and events occur in this infinity of universes?

Anything that is possible , I dont know what laws of physics exist outside our universe... But yeah, if we came to existence from big bang, what is the odds that there are other ''big bangs'' elsewhere ? I would say pretty high..

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spacecowboy342

So you agree with me?

I agree that the mathematics of infinity agree with you. I still have a problem with the idea that infinities actually exist in nature

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Frank Merton

I tend to think that if something is possible it will happen, and in an infinite multi-cosmic-universe it will happen till you are blue in the face and then some more.

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spacecowboy342

I tend to think that if something is possible it will happen, and in an infinite multi-cosmic-universe it will happen till you are blue in the face and then some more.

I agree, even if this is the only universe, if it is infinite all possibilities must, almost certainly endlessly repeat
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StarMountainKid
I agree that the mathematics of infinity agree with you. I still have a problem with the idea that infinities actually exist in nature

How can our universe be infinite in extent or in volume if it had a starting date? How much time does it take for a universe to reach this infinite state? Was there a moment when it was almost infinite but not quite before it became infinite?

Is there enough matter to fill a universe infinite in extent with stars and galaxies?

What's it like at some point in space infinitely far away from earth? In a sense this place infinitely far away exists, though where ever you are there is always an infinite extent further on. So, the earth is infinitely far away from some space-time location A, but there is also an infinite distance farther beyond A.

I think it's easy to take the concept of infinity too lightly and toss it around as if it were a simple thing to contemplate.

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spacecowboy342

How can our universe be infinite in extent or in volume if it had a starting date? How much time does it take for a universe to reach this infinite state? Was there a moment when it was almost infinite but not quite before it became infinite?

Is there enough matter to fill a universe infinite in extent with stars and galaxies?

What's it like at some point in space infinitely far away from earth? In a sense this place infinitely far away exists, though where ever you are there is always an infinite extent further on. So, the earth is infinitely far away from some space-time location A, but there is also an infinite distance farther beyond A.

I think it's easy to take the concept of infinity too lightly and toss it around as if it were a simple thing to contemplate.

I think, according to math and observation we can say the universe tends to infinity but never quite reaches it. How can it be infinity if it can be reached?

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Frank Merton

I think, according to math and observation we can say the universe tends to infinity but never quite reaches it. How can it be infinity if it can be reached?

So if some alien tells you they are from a galaxy an infinite distance away you will have your doubts.
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spacecowboy342

So if some alien tells you they are from a galaxy an infinite distance away you will have your doubts.

I would indeed. Wouldn't it take an infinite amount of time to travel an infinite distance?

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Waspie_Dwarf

Wouldn't it take an infinite amount of time to travel an infinite distance?

I would think so, even if you were travelling infinitely fast... unless (to go all science fictiony) you have something like jump drive enabling you to jump infinite distances in zero time. Or infinite improbability drive, that would work.

Now I come to think about it, if sufficiently advanced aliens told me they had come from a micro-universe that exists in my arm pit I'd probably believe them.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
- Arthur C. Clarke

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StarMountainKid

Infinitie universes and all that. Here's a thought experiment. Imagine an infinitely long ruler that you can see no matter how far away from it you are. No matter how far away you are away from it, it will always appear infinite in length.

However, if you were infinitely far away from the ruler, would it still appear infinite in length? What would it look like?

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taniwha

Infinitie universes and all that. Here's a thought experiment. Imagine an infinitely long ruler that you can see no matter how far away from it you are. No matter how far away you are away from it, it will always appear infinite in length.

However, if you were infinitely far away from the ruler, would it still appear infinite in length? What would it look like?

No, even a light that shines infinitely bright would not be visible by us if we were seperated from it by infinite space.

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StarMountainKid
No, even a light that shines infinitely bright would not be visible by us if we were seperated from it by infinite space.

Why not? The light is infinitely bright. Actually, it's just an imaginary thought, not depending on the laws of physics. I'm just trying to point out the counter-intuitiveness and strangeness of infinities. I think infinity is only a mathematical concept, and there can be no infinity of real objects.

I think our universe cannot be infinite in extent because there would have to be an infinite amount of time for the universe to reach infinite extent. Theoretically, at infinite speed, you could travel infinitely far away from earth, but what does this mean? Infinity is not bounded, so there is no real infinite distance from earth. This is just a concept.

In any case, there would have to be the potential for an infinite amount of space at the BB.

Taking into account an infinite number of universes, I think time has to be considered. Each universe encloses its own time, sort of like temporal frames of reference in our universe. Considering Existence having no beginning, the multi-verse extending infinitely into the past, I think is an incorrect way of looking at it.

Can we say that some universe existed 'before' ours? As each universe exists independant of ours time-wise, I don't think we can compare them temporally. That is, their existence 'before' and 'after' ours becomes meaningless when we think about all these other universes.

It would be more correct to say they all exist independantly of ours temporally, and in this sense saying the multi-verse as a whole extends infinitely into the past with no beginning makes no sense. One could as correctly say that all these universes, 'past', 'present' and 'future', exist at the same time, and the concept of an infinite past and future becomes meaningless, as they all exist in their own separate and unrelated timelines.

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questionmark

Infinitie universes and all that. Here's a thought experiment. Imagine an infinitely long ruler that you can see no matter how far away from it you are. No matter how far away you are away from it, it will always appear infinite in length.

However, if you were infinitely far away from the ruler, would it still appear infinite in length? What would it look like?

you would not be able to see it as you cannot see infinitely far.

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StarMountainKid
you would not be able to see it as you cannot see infinitely far.

I'm just trying to point out the peculiarties of infinities. "Seening infinitely far" makes no sense, not because it is impossible, the concept of "infinitely far" itself is meaningless. "Infinite distance" has no real meaning, in my view, because it cannot be measured. If we cannot measure something, can it be a 'real thing'?

I don't think an infinite number of real objects can exist. If we begin counting the objects in an infinite set, there is no object of infinite count. We cannot count an infinity of objects, as there is always an infinite number of objects 'in front' of the last counted. So if we 'look' at all the objects projected away from the first object counted, in essence, there is no object infinitely 'down the line' that is countable.

To my mind, this means only countable objects can exist in reality.

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questionmark

I'm just trying to point out the peculiarties of infinities. "Seening infinitely far" makes no sense, not because it is impossible, the concept of "infinitely far" itself is meaningless. "Infinite distance" has no real meaning, in my view, because it cannot be measured. If we cannot measure something, can it be a 'real thing'?

I don't think an infinite number of real objects can exist. If we begin counting the objects in an infinite set, there is no object of infinite count. We cannot count an infinity of objects, as there is always an infinite number of objects 'in front' of the last counted. So if we 'look' at all the objects projected away from the first object counted, in essence, there is no object infinitely 'down the line' that is countable.

To my mind, this means only countable objects can exist in reality.

If there are no infinite number of objects the universe does not have infinite size and Grampa Albert will be angry with you :innocent:

Edited by questionmark

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StarMountainKid
If there are no infinite number of objects the universe does not have infinite size and Grampa Albert will be angry with you :innocent:

This is not a comment on my previous posts, nor a refutation of them. Let us say we have a set of an infinite number of objects. At any 'place' in the set we can count some number of the objects, say '1, 2, 3, 4' objects. But we cannot count a series of these objects in this way at infinity. There are no countable objects at infinity. If we can't count an object, can we maintain it is real?

I think there is only a potential for an infinite number of real objects, and that concept of potentiality only exists in the mind.

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