Birds are Dinosaurs thread

[Erikl]

Well I've decided to open another "birds are dinosaurs" thread, since it's been a long time since such a thread was debated here.

Anyway, please feel free to write youre opinion:

Are birds dinosaurs?

Did birds evolve from dinosaurs but are not dinosaurs?

I'll write mine later.

[wcturnersr]

I do not believe birds are dinosaurs. Yes they may have some similarities, but there needs to be more proof.

[firefemme1202]

I do not believe birds are dinosaurs.  Yes they may have some similarities, but there needs to be more proof.

348304[/snapback]

I thought there already was proof. Birds' bone structure is directly related to how a teradactyl's was.

http://www.cnn.com/EARTH/9512/egg_laying_dinos/

Birds evolved...they survived when the dinosaurs didn't. Aligators stuck around and they lived in the dinosaur's era. But honestly, anyone who believes in evolution will believe birds evolved from prehistoric dinosaur birds and those who believe in creationalism will say they are not directly related.

[Janiel]

Yea, good point, this'll become another "Creationism vs. Evolution" debate.

But, since i don't believe in creationism, i do believe in evolution.

Personally, its the only one that makes any sense to me...

[DJ_5150]

I am a big believer in the evolution theory.

Birds, in my opinion did evolve from some species of dinosaur. I used to be a huge reader on anything about dinosaurs and i can honestly say that this theory makes sense.

[mr_halo]

I am a big believer in the evolution theory.

Birds, in my opinion did evolve from some species of dinosaur. I used to be a huge reader on anything about dinosaurs and i can honestly say that this theory makes sense.

348508[/snapback]

i agree...

although i only think that the smallest species of dinosaurs evolved into the birds we see today...

[seeking]

i believe that if dinosaurs never existed, birds would not exist today

[BurnSide]

Studies have shown that towards the end of the Cretacious era many types of raptors evolved feathers.

Their bone structure is almost identical to a birds, NOT the lizards that was originally thought. Their feet are like birds feet, and indeed many types of dinosaurs evolved beaks, or simply had beaks.

There is no doubt in my mind that many of todays birds originally started off 65 million years ago as dinosaurs.

[mr_halo]

Studies have shown that towards the end of the Cretacious era many types of raptors evolved feathers.

Their bone structure is almost identical to a birds, NOT the lizards that was originally thought. Their feet are like birds feet, and indeed many types of dinosaurs evolved beaks, or simply had beaks.

There is no doubt in my mind that many of todays birds originally started off 65 million years ago as dinosaurs.

350407[/snapback]

well there were a lot of giant ground birds after the dinosaurs died out...

raptors could have easily evolved into those creatures...

raptor means bird of prey afterall

[man_in_mudboots]

Studies have shown that towards the end of the Cretacious era many types of raptors evolved feathers.

so what? birds were already around by the middle jurassic, raptors became feathered far, far too late to have been the evolutionary ancestors of birds. it was the Segisaurs, i tell you.

[NightMoon]

If birds descended from dinosaurs, why are they light?

[mr_halo]

If birds descended from dinosaurs, why are they light?

356213[/snapback]

because they have air sacs and hollows in their bones, some dinosaurs had the same feature... i think...

[Noob Siabot]

Well, only a few species of Dinosaurs had those, and it was a strong feature in the Dromeosaurid or "Raptor" family. But as it was said earlier, Raptors supposedly lived too late to be the ancestors of birds, and besides, just cause they're called "Raptors" doesn't mean anything. They could have been named cats or hawks, but it wouldn't mean that they would be any different. Names are just what poeple give, they don't mean that the names are acurate.

And on the note of creationism, yes I believe in it, but I also think that horizontal (I hope it's horizontal) evolution, because if you isolate animals in a certain environment, they do change of a few generations. But evolution makes no sense, cause what started the first spark of life? I mean, the theory (and mind you, it's still only a theory!) basically says that if you have a car that is taken apart by every peice, laying in a pile, and a tornado comes and sucks it up, eventually one of those times when it sucks up the parts, out will come a fully working car. I mean, they've proven that all humans have decended from the same original parents, which only proves what creationism is saying. But yeah that's just food for thought.

[Deimos]

Well, only a few species of Dinosaurs had those, and it was a strong feature in the Dromeosaurid or "Raptor" family. But as it was said earlier, Raptors supposedly lived too late to be the ancestors of birds, and besides, just cause they're called "Raptors" doesn't mean anything. They could have been named cats or hawks, but it wouldn't mean that they would be any different. Names are just what poeple give, they don't mean that the names are acurate.

And on the note of creationism, yes I believe in it, but I also think that horizontal (I hope it's horizontal) evolution, because if you isolate animals in a certain environment, they do change of a few generations. But evolution makes no sense, cause what started the first spark of life? I mean, the theory (and mind you, it's still only a theory!) basically says that if you have a car that is taken apart by every peice, laying in a pile, and a tornado comes and sucks it up, eventually one of those times when it sucks up the parts, out will come a fully working car. I mean, they've proven that all humans have decended from the same original parents, which only proves what creationism is saying. But yeah that's just food for thought. 

356259[/snapback]

Interesting summary bro!

[mr_halo]

Well, only a few species of Dinosaurs had those, and it was a strong feature in the Dromeosaurid or "Raptor" family. But as it was said earlier, Raptors supposedly lived too late to be the ancestors of birds, and besides, just cause they're called "Raptors" doesn't mean anything. They could have been named cats or hawks, but it wouldn't mean that they would be any different. Names are just what poeple give, they don't mean that the names are acurate.

And on the note of creationism, yes I believe in it, but I also think that horizontal (I hope it's horizontal) evolution, because if you isolate animals in a certain environment, they do change of a few generations. But evolution makes no sense, cause what started the first spark of life? I mean, the theory (and mind you, it's still only a theory!) basically says that if you have a car that is taken apart by every peice, laying in a pile, and a tornado comes and sucks it up, eventually one of those times when it sucks up the parts, out will come a fully working car. I mean, they've proven that all humans have decended from the same original parents, which only proves what creationism is saying. But yeah that's just food for thought. 

356259[/snapback]

yeah i think i heard it about raptors, but i'm no expert on things like this, i just thought i'd add my comment

[Dezmond]

I really don't know if this is true. Can be true because of the similarities.

Look for example to Birds legs (or how you call them).

And they have a leather like skin just like dinosaurs had.

[Naram-sin]

evolution makes no sense, cause what started the first spark of life?

Evolution is not about how everything started, rather it is about how things change and adapt to their environment. Other disciplines address how things started and religion also attempts (often not too coherently) to answer the origin question.

[kikuchiyo]

Noob, you got it all wrong, there's a difference between the theory of "chance happening" and evolution, according to what you said about the car and the tornado. You actually compare living organism to hunks of metal?

Cells will seek to survive and reproduce, therefore they need to be change with time to be able to procreate faster and survive "better". It also involve the "survival of the fittest" theory, which is well beyond your "tornado Vs. Car" analogy.

In the term of evolution life sparked out of a simple chemical reaction, that can be reproduce in laboratory. It a complex mechanism, but here is a simplification: When the atmosphere on earth calmed down the mix of the acidity in the sea, the atmospheric pressure, minerals and a occasional surge from thunders made the perfect environment for the firsts one cell organism (close to some modern undersea plants). With time they started producing a toxic gas (we now call oxygen), this gas could wipe out the firsts life on earth but they evolved and joined an other "newer" form of biological organism ( electrolytes, they actually need oxygen to "live" so there new "symbiot" life would permit the single cell to survive). Today we can still see that symbiot bond as we need oxygen to live yet technically oxygen is a perfect disinfectant.

***

If Humans were created by god, who created god?

If Humans do come from a "genesis" couple does it mean that all humans are inbred?

If Humans are created from two sets of genetic backround why is there so many genetic diversity?

So god created the dinosaur and just thought, aw booooring, byebye now.

+++

Through evolution and adaptation some dinosaur evolved in some way. The only dinosaur that have evolved into birds where the Velociraptor "familly", specialized in speed and agility, they got thinner and lighter. With time the best predator had better things to eat and have the privilege to reproduce ( what might have started as a form of osteoporosis, became a common thing making them even more lighter). As the evolution of the wings, at first they were used for cornering and slowing down, the feather would make the air flow in one direction helping them turn and come to a stop without breaking anything ( as we see today with racing cars).

[Dezmond]

Here is a very clear picutre to help you see why we think dinosaurs evolved to birds.

Look especially at the wings, it shows very clear how they evolved.

[mr_halo]

Here is a very clear picutre to help you see why we think dinosaurs evolved to birds.

Look especially at the wings, it shows very clear how they evolved.

359924[/snapback]

a great picture/diagram dezmond

[Noob Siabot]

You make a very good and interesting aguement, kikuchiyo. Well, to answer your questions:

1.If Humans were created by god, who created god?

2.If Humans do come from a "genesis" couple does it mean that all humans are inbred?

3.If Humans are created from two sets of genetic backround why is there so many genetic diversity?

4.So god created the dinosaur and just thought, aw booooring, byebye now.

1. God is timeless. He's always existed. He has no beginningand no end. This concept is obviously hard to deal with because we are so bound by time and our physical universe.

2.In a sense yes. They've traced the lineage of human (through the emniotic fluid and the placenta) all back to 1 original mother. Plus, when the first humans where on earth, they where all in 1 area, and so there where no dominant or reccesive triats yet. those would develope later.

3.The reason for this diversity is due to the different regions from where people live. In a sense, it's due to horizontal evolution. I mean, the people that first moved to and inhabited asia over a few generations developed an extra layer of fat around their eyes due to the cold environment. People in Africa have darker skin because they live in a hot and very sunny environment.

4.I don't think so. No one (religious or non-religious) would know the answer to this one. My guess would be that the flood (if you believe in it) was responsible or that if there are any left, they would live in the deepest jungles of Africa. I mean, God's not stupid. Could you imagine a T-Rex in modern times? Either we would have killed them all off as trophies or we would all be eaten by dinos.

As far as life being created in the lab, I have yet to see or even hear of any laboratory that has taken a mix of non-living chemicals and created a life.

Edited November 18, 2004 by Noob Siabot

[seeking]

back in ancient times people invented "gods" to explain away what they did not understand, to them the sun rising everyday had to be due to something more powerful becasue in those times they did not have the knowledge needed to understand the idea of space and a solar system, today we still do not understand things such as life and death and therefore, history repeating itsself, we have created a god to explain away what we do not understand because we do not have the knowledge to explain it in any other way, we do however, or some of us anyway, try to further our knowledge and understanding by comming up with ideas to try to explain what we dont know (evolution, big bang), no one just through some wheels on a chair and called it a car, there were ideas that where created first trying to solve the problem at hand

[kikuchiyo]

By numbers

Noob, you have raised more questions in my mind. In a religious point of view your answers were satisfying, yet I continuously seek more information so here goes.

1-As the first response to my questions, you talk about the timelessness of god, If god is timeless why would there be an end to our successful specie? Also, would that mean that to god, humans are a common creation, something god can create in six days, with some ease?

2-If all humans are from the same "Genesis" couple, wouldn't the gene pool degenerate after the second generation, creating a high number of trisomy and other genetic birth defects? (Which would be the opposite of the Darwinian point of view where each new generation is better then the last, due to the diversity of genes and the reproduction of the best elements )

3-I think this is a point we can relate, humanity has evolved to survive in it environment.

4-1. By flood, do you mean Noah's flood?

4-2. Why would all the dinosaurs live in the deepest jungles of Africa, if at first the dinosaurs lived in a continent called Pangea, where all the modern continent where bundled together? Humanity could only appear after the dinosaurs disappeared due to the fact that mammals were hunted, so they didn't evolve any hunter skills (which lead to more complex thinking) during that time.

There is a scientific answer to what happend to the dinosaurs, first a ratter large meteorite hits the earth raising quite a big amount of dust in the air, blocking out the sun. This leads to a series of events, not enough plants for the bigger herbivores, then the carnivores are left with only a few scraps of food so they die off too. Only the smaller dinosaurs could survive, know as the raptor specie today, also the small warm blooded mammals were able to avoid being wiped out.

***

-"Non-living" chemical are called simply called chemical, if a "chemical" is considered living it's called Biological.

-the process is called photosynthesis, getting energy from the transformation of the light and carbon.

[Frosty]

Yes, I am doubtful that a dinosaur such as a raptor would evolve into a chicken. Why?

[kikuchiyo]

well because doubt is what makes humans stand out, as in doubt one must find something to satisfy the ponderous mind.

***

that is why you are doubtful.

Edited November 19, 2004 by kikuchiyo