The enigma of the existence of evil

[Alan McDougall]

Enigma of the existence of evil and the Garden of Eden and GOD the Benevolent

I know the story of the Garden and Eden and the fall of man are thought to be a mythical account of a people long past in the mists of time, but I base this essay on the literal reading of the Book of Genesis and that the Bible is a true account of what happened there long ago.

Remember that Adams name means "Man or Humanity! Thus the story about Adam and Eve is also about humanity still to be born

I will try in my own way to answer this most difficult question.

How can we ever reconcile the fact of evil, suffering and pain, existing side by side with a supposedly benevolent Holy God of light and love?

Let us go back to the story of the Garden of Eden Geneses Chap 2 verse 17, where God says to Adam, that dam may eat of any tree except for the "tree of knowledge of good and evil"

Note; The tree of knowledge of Good and evil, so Evil existed before Adam. "Adam" also represents entire humanity, still to be born and how these still to be born, would have to relate to God.

It is true that God is all-knowing, thus he knew before hand that Adam was going to fail the test and eat the forbidden fruit as urged of by his wife Eve, the name Eve means “out of man” and she was a reflection of all woman still to be born and how woman would interact with God all down the history of the world, just like it did for Adam her husband.

So why did God give Adam and Eve a test he knew they would fail? , it does no seem fair at first glance?

I hear a loud reply from the forum "because He wanted us to have a free will and not be robots". Maybe??

It its partly true that when God created Adam and then humanity that God did give Adam/humanity a free will but at the same moment did not want Adam/humanity to be robots, controlled by him by some means of remote control, making them into mindless entities ,always on his beck and call a mere toy for him to play with.

In the above scenario, of absolute free will, God would have had to constantly observing mankind’s ever action , decision and thought and forcing them all to do only right things. He would have had to manipulating Adam-Humanity, from hurting themselves as well as from doing things he disapproved of.

To get this right God would have to have acted proactively or before Adam-Eve-Humanity could think about doing a potentially hurtful bad activity to themselves or others Thus without a free will Adam- -humanity would have had to have been forced by God to act and think and perform like his puppet, into doing exactly what He wanted them to do all through eternity.

Continuing in this vain, if God had given Adam-humanity a totally free will without any reservations he being, Holy Perfect would have had to investigate every act of Adam-humanities down to their every thought and intervene on very single moment of their lives, before they could act out an incorrect thought. Every action or decision made by Adam-humanity would have been first have had to be vetted and approved by God, before he would have allowed Adam-humanity to do what he allowed them to do. Of course the holocaust could and would never happen in such a one sided controlled environment.

However God did not want blind controlled obedient robots, but entities similar to him. because he obviously has a free will, he wanted his created beings to enjoy the same freedom of choice as he had and become his children and companions.

Thus God decided to give humanity as test, which he knew they would fail.

Surely, God could simply have give Adam a free will and allow him to anything he wanted to do without the "necessity of any test". but no!

Nevertheless, God, in his infinite wisdom goes ahead and gives Adam (and Eve) a test he "knows they are going to fail, why? Was this fair seeing the awful consequences for humanity down through the age?

Yes absolutely as I will describe later in this essay!

Let us go back to the origin of evil, where did it come from.

Isaiah Cap. 45 Verse 7 G-D says "I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create "evil" I God do all these things. God made everything so he must have made evil but why?

Let us go back to Adam and the pampered environment of the Garden of Eden. If Adam and Eve had been left in the Garden of Eden, remained there and obeyed God by not eating the forbidden fruit. In this hypothetical situation, God would have known that Adam and Eve were going to obey Him and after their obedience of passing the test allowed them to existed forever a paradise setting of beauty warmth, comfort, never ever have to toil work just reach out and eat do any thing they want.

Of course on first glance this seems wonderful but think about it a little longer This state of eternal infinite never ending sugary perfection, would be wonderful for say a hundred years or a thousand years a hundred thousand years, but having never ever experienced cold, they could not appreciate warmth, never being hungry never appreciate the joy and taste of food, never being thirsty they would not appreciate the taste and satisfaction of sparking water , never knowing hate the would not know what love was etc .

Therefore, after countless years in this paradise setting it would have become a boring never changing hell to them. Therefore, God, in his infinite wisdom and love, simply had to banish them into the world or toil sorrow and hardship, in order for humanity to truly appreciate paradise, because they had experienced suffering, pain, and sorrow in this mortal world.

Adam's and Eve’s offspring would also have to existed forever in this a one-sided unchallenged reality in Eden, never knowing or appreciated the wonder of eternal life, because they would not know what death was, or how really beautiful the paradise they existed in because, they would never experienced the opposite, etc etc..

But God knew in his infinite wisdom that to become like him they must know evil, pain and sorrow to become fully functional free thinking beings similar to him in consciousness and indeed co- creators of their own domain and reality after death.

God was being fair with Adam and Eve-Humanity and did give them the test, which he knew they would fail. God in deep and profound sorrow had drive them out from the paradise of Eden , into the present reality world of thorns, cold, dark, pain, evil etc, etc. This reality is based on a duality we know evil so we know the beauty of goodness; we know truth so we can hate the lie, and we experience the light so that we know dark.

Humanity can look back on a "paradise lost with a longing to for the eternal wonder and beauty of the original Eden, which they would love and rejoice as paradise regained

God however made a plan to rejoin him in Jesus Christ the lord, by free choice and with the full knowledge that heaven is an unimaginable wonder beautiful place of everlasting life.

Good and evil

Light and dark

Truth and lie

Deception and honesty

Love and hate

War and Peace

Positive and negative

Faith and despair

Holiness and depravity

Warm and hot

Life and death

It is up to you or me choose life or eternal death!

The one who you obey and will you are doing is your true master no matter what you state to the contrary

By Alan McDougall

[JJ50]

I think the Bible is a wholly human creation, I hope so as the deity featured therein is wholly bad, if the deeds attributed to it are factual! The Garden of Eden story is a case in point. The deity deliberately set Adam and Eve up. Having created their human nature it knew they would eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge as humans have a need to know. The deity was at fault NOT A&E!

[Frank Merton]

I think evil and sin are human ideas derived from religion and not from any sort of rational thought. It is possible to define behaviors society needs to prevent for its protection, and all societies do so, but this should be done rationally with a view to the needs of society and not out of some sense of evil or sin.

A far more interesting question to my mind is not the presence of evil but the presence of suffering if God exists. He should not tolerate it. Here am I a mere mortal and I can see this clearly, as can many who do not have their eyes blinded. It demonstrates there is no God.

[redhen]

Note; The tree of knowledge of Good and evil, so Evil existed before Adam.

I suppose that's one interpretation. That would pre-empt The Fall though and any need for a redeemer.

In the above scenario, of absolute free will, God would have had to constantly observing mankind’s ever action , decision and thought and forcing them all to do only right things. He would have had to manipulating Adam-Humanity, from hurting themselves as well as from doing things he disapproved of.

Not necessarily, there are some philosophers (Peter van Inwagen) who posit that The Fall (Adam excluded from paradise) “involved a grave diminution of our cognitive powers”. According to van Inwagen, prelapsarian humans somehow were “able to protect ourselves from earthquakes and tornadoes” 1.

Of course on first glance this seems wonderful but think about it a little longer This state of eternal infinite never ending sugary perfection, would be wonderful for say a hundred years or a thousand years a hundred thousand years, but having never ever experienced cold, they could not appreciate warmth, never being hungry never appreciate the joy and taste of food, never being thirsty they would not appreciate the taste and satisfaction of sparking water , never knowing hate the would not know what love was etc .

If you are taking a literal account of the Bible, then God created this perfect world with no evil to last until the end of time. It was so created in the beginning, and will be evil free at the end. We have detailed descriptions of the future New Jerusalem, a world where the lion lays down with the lamb, in effect, no natural evil.

Therefore, after countless years in this paradise setting it would have become a boring never changing hell to them. Therefore, God, in his infinite wisdom and love, simply had to banish them into the world or toil sorrow and hardship, in order for humanity to truly appreciate paradise, because they had experienced suffering, pain, and sorrow in this mortal world.

Seriously? Yeah, it's so boring on the beach during my tropical vacation, I should bang my head against a brick wall so I will appreciate it more. Yeah, that's what I need to do.

Well, you've addressed moral evil in your theodicy, but like so many others you refuse to even touch the subject of natural evil. i.e. the inherent, gratuitous, pain, suffering and death in nature. Kudos for you though for talking a literalist approach with God creating the world and everything in it in six days. This goes a long way in mitigating natural evil as opposed to hundreds of millions of years of pain suffering and death.

"So far as we know beasts are incapable either of sin or of virtue; therefore they can neither deserve pain nor be improved by it." C.S. Lewis, Fellow of Magdalen College, Oxford, 1940

1 Peter van Inwagen; The Magnitude, Duration, and Distribution of Evil: A Theodicy

Edited June 8, 2014 by redhen

[Jor-el]

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the injunction that prohibited Adam and Eve from eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was merely temporary?

[Leonardo]

Note; The tree of knowledge of Good and evil, so Evil existed before Adam.

I suppose that's one interpretation. That would pre-empt The Fall though and any need for a redeemer.

The serpent is also symbolic of evil being independent of Man.

[ellapenella]

Enigma of the existence of evil and the Garden of Eden and GOD the Benevolent

I know the story of the Garden and Eden and the fall of man are thought to be a mythical account of a people long past in the mists of time, but I base this essay on the literal reading of the Book of Genesis and that the Bible is a true account of what happened there long ago.

Remember that Adams name means "Man or Humanity! Thus the story about Adam and Eve is also about humanity still to be born

I will try in my own way to answer this most difficult question.

How can we ever reconcile the fact of evil, suffering and pain, existing side by side with a supposedly benevolent Holy God of light and love?

Let us go back to the story of the Garden of Eden Geneses Chap 2 verse 17, where God says to Adam, that dam may eat of any tree except for the "tree of knowledge of good and evil"

Note; The tree of knowledge of Good and evil, so Evil existed before Adam. "Adam" also represents entire humanity, still to be born and how these still to be born, would have to relate to God.

It is true that God is all-knowing, thus he knew before hand that Adam was going to fail the test and eat the forbidden fruit as urged of by his wife Eve, the name Eve means “out of man” and she was a reflection of all woman still to be born and how woman would interact with God all down the history of the world, just like it did for Adam her husband.

So why did God give Adam and Eve a test he knew they would fail? , it does no seem fair at first glance?

I hear a loud reply from the forum "because He wanted us to have a free will and not be robots". Maybe??

It its partly true that when God created Adam and then humanity that God did give Adam/humanity a free will but at the same moment did not want Adam/humanity to be robots, controlled by him by some means of remote control, making them into mindless entities ,always on his beck and call a mere toy for him to play with.

In the above scenario, of absolute free will, God would have had to constantly observing mankind’s ever action , decision and thought and forcing them all to do only right things. He would have had to manipulating Adam-Humanity, from hurting themselves as well as from doing things he disapproved of.

To get this right God would have to have acted proactively or before Adam-Eve-Humanity could think about doing a potentially hurtful bad activity to themselves or others Thus without a free will Adam- -humanity would have had to have been forced by God to act and think and perform like his puppet, into doing exactly what He wanted them to do all through eternity.

Continuing in this vain, if God had given Adam-humanity a totally free will without any reservations he being, Holy Perfect would have had to investigate every act of Adam-humanities down to their every thought and intervene on very single moment of their lives, before they could act out an incorrect thought. Every action or decision made by Adam-humanity would have been first have had to be vetted and approved by God, before he would have allowed Adam-humanity to do what he allowed them to do. Of course the holocaust could and would never happen in such a one sided controlled environment.

However God did not want blind controlled obedient robots, but entities similar to him. because he obviously has a free will, he wanted his created beings to enjoy the same freedom of choice as he had and become his children and companions.

Thus God decided to give humanity as test, which he knew they would fail.

Surely, God could simply have give Adam a free will and allow him to anything he wanted to do without the "necessity of any test". but no!

Nevertheless, God, in his infinite wisdom goes ahead and gives Adam (and Eve) a test he "knows they are going to fail, why? Was this fair seeing the awful consequences for humanity down through the age?

Yes absolutely as I will describe later in this essay!

Let us go back to the origin of evil, where did it come from.

Isaiah Cap. 45 Verse 7 G-D says "I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create "evil" I God do all these things. God made everything so he must have made evil but why?

Let us go back to Adam and the pampered environment of the Garden of Eden. If Adam and Eve had been left in the Garden of Eden, remained there and obeyed God by not eating the forbidden fruit. In this hypothetical situation, God would have known that Adam and Eve were going to obey Him and after their obedience of passing the test allowed them to existed forever a paradise setting of beauty warmth, comfort, never ever have to toil work just reach out and eat do any thing they want.

Of course on first glance this seems wonderful but think about it a little longer This state of eternal infinite never ending sugary perfection, would be wonderful for say a hundred years or a thousand years a hundred thousand years, but having never ever experienced cold, they could not appreciate warmth, never being hungry never appreciate the joy and taste of food, never being thirsty they would not appreciate the taste and satisfaction of sparking water , never knowing hate the would not know what love was etc .

Therefore, after countless years in this paradise setting it would have become a boring never changing hell to them. Therefore, God, in his infinite wisdom and love, simply had to banish them into the world or toil sorrow and hardship, in order for humanity to truly appreciate paradise, because they had experienced suffering, pain, and sorrow in this mortal world.

Adam's and Eve’s offspring would also have to existed forever in this a one-sided unchallenged reality in Eden, never knowing or appreciated the wonder of eternal life, because they would not know what death was, or how really beautiful the paradise they existed in because, they would never experienced the opposite, etc etc..

But God knew in his infinite wisdom that to become like him they must know evil, pain and sorrow to become fully functional free thinking beings similar to him in consciousness and indeed co- creators of their own domain and reality after death.

God was being fair with Adam and Eve-Humanity and did give them the test, which he knew they would fail. God in deep and profound sorrow had drive them out from the paradise of Eden , into the present reality world of thorns, cold, dark, pain, evil etc, etc. This reality is based on a duality we know evil so we know the beauty of goodness; we know truth so we can hate the lie, and we experience the light so that we know dark.

Humanity can look back on a "paradise lost with a longing to for the eternal wonder and beauty of the original Eden, which they would love and rejoice as paradise regained

God however made a plan to rejoin him in Jesus Christ the lord, by free choice and with the full knowledge that heaven is an unimaginable wonder beautiful place of everlasting life.

Good and evil

Light and dark

Truth and lie

Deception and honesty

Love and hate

War and Peace

Positive and negative

Faith and despair

Holiness and depravity

Warm and hot

Life and death

It is up to you or me choose life or eternal death!

The one who you obey and will you are doing is your true master no matter what you state to the contrary

By Alan McDougall

maybe there's more to the story....what if we all chose to be here willingly ? Like, what if we felt that it was so wonderful and good with God that we wanted to do something in return, like in gratitude to prove, or show our love...Maybe we're here to show that we would choose the light of God always...But the lessons learned along the way are sometimes painful..

I see you ended with life and death

what about sound and vibration

energy and transformation ?

[029b10]

I think evil and sin are human ideas derived from religion and not from any sort of rational thought. It is possible to define behaviors society needs to prevent for its protection,

That is one of the most absurd contradictions that I have heard.

evil = behaviors society needs to prevent

sin = define for its protection

[Alan McDougall]

I get fed up when people try to tell me that there is no such thing as evil If they had a beautiful young daughter at home, would these same people invite Ted Bundy for few days visit?

Or try and tell the survivors of the death camps of the Holocaust that there is no such thing as evil?

Evil exists, like it or not, but luckily for us so does goodness, love and compassion!

[Frank Merton]

Sorry, there is no such thing as "evil." It's in your head; you make judgments about things and these judgments are from you, not from the world. There is also no such thing as "ugly" or "worthless" or "repulsive."

Get over it. You are not the center of the universe and it doesn't care what you think about things.

[Alan McDougall]

Sorry, there is no such thing as "evil." It's in your head; you make judgments about things and these judgments are from you, not from the world. There is also no such thing as "ugly" or "worthless" or "repulsive."

Get over it. You are not the center of the universe and it doesn't care what you think about things.

Rubbish!!

[White Crane Feather]

It is true, sentience is built upon duality. Without it, consciousness even existence itself could not exist. Nearly everything in existence is polarized in some way.

As for genisus. A non literal interpretation seems to suggest the transition from hunter gatherer societies to agrigarian.

It is still takeing place.

[Jor-el]

It is true, sentience is built upon duality. Without it, consciousness even existence itself could not exist. Nearly everything in existence is polarized in some way.

As for genisus. A non literal interpretation seems to suggest the transition from hunter gatherer societies to agrigarian.

It is still takeing place.

Why do you think consciousness built upon duality?

Consciousness is much more than making choices between opposing or competing forms. It seems to me that what you consider to the duality is only a small part of what consciousness is all about.

[Alan McDougall]

Sorry, there is no such thing as "evil." It's in your head; you make judgments about things and these judgments are from you, not from the world. There is also no such thing as "ugly" or "worthless" or "repulsive."

Get over it. You are not the center of the universe and it doesn't care what you think about things.

Get on the wrong side of these depots and then if you are still alive tell my that there is no such thing as evil?

http://listverse.com/2011/06/13/20-quotes-of-evil-leaders/

I am very interested in the minds of famous evil men. Many of them are very quotable, so I decided to write a list on some of their best quotes. Much of the time, their evil shows through their quotes. Other times, it doesn’t. If you have other quotes from famous evil people (not necessarily just leaders) or more from those mentioned here, please include them in the comments.

1

Quotes 20 – 15

20. “Death is the solution to all problems. No man – no problem.” – Joseph Stalin

19. “Americans are the great Satan, the wounded snake.” – Ayatollah Khomeini

18. “The only white man you can trust is a dead white man.” – Robert Mugabe

17. “Terror is only justice: prompt, severe and inflexible; it is then an emanation of virtue; it is less a distinct principle than a natural consequence of the general principle of democracy, applied to the most pressing wants of the country.” — Maximilien Robespierre

16. “Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate (grundlich aufzaumen) its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention.” – Talat Pasha

15. To read too many books is harmful. — Mao Zedong

Quotes 15 – 11

15. “You cannot run faster than a bullet.” – Idi Amin

14. “I want you to know that everything I did, I did for my country.”- Pol Pot

13. “Keep your faith in God, but keep your powder dry.” – Oliver Cromwell

12. “We love death. The U.S. loves life. That is the difference between us two.” – Osama bin Laden

11. “Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed.” – Mao Zedong

3Quotes 10 – 6

10. “A man who dreads trials and difficulties cannot become a revolutionary. If he is to become a revolutionary with an indomitable fighting spirit, he must be tempered in the arduous struggle from his youth. As the saying goes, early training means more than late earning.” – Kim Jong-il

9. “The oppressed peoples can liberate themselves only through struggle. This is a simple and clear truth confirmed by history.” – Kim Il-Sung

8. “One thing I congratulate everyone on is the great explosion which has occurred in Washington’s Black House and the very important scandal which has gripped leaders of America.” – Ayatollah Khomeini

7. “Generals think war should be waged like the tourneys of the Middle Ages. I have no use for knights; I need revolutionaries.” – Adolf Hitler

6. “Equality means nothing unless incorporated into the institutions.” – Slobodan Milosevic

5. “I didn’t say ‘former president,’ I said ‘president,’ and I have the constitutional rights according to the constitution, including immunity from prosecution.” – Saddam Hussein

4. “To sum it all up, I must say that I regret nothing.” – Adolf Eichmann

3. “We need not fear the judgment of history. Who, after all, speaks today of the extermination of the Armenians?” – Adolf Hitler

2. “Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas.” – Josef Stalin

1. “One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.” – Josef Stalin

[Alan McDougall]

Serial Killers from Around the World

I would like to point out to those that insist there is no such thing as evil, that many of these depraved evil reprobatesreturn over and over again to the dead bodies of their innocent victims and engage in all sorts of hideous sexual acts with the decaying corpse.

One particular cut off his own mother's head, and stuck his member into its moth in an attempt to have oral sex with the rotting head of his mother.

Jeffrey Dahmer did this also and ate part of his victims to get a sexual high, Ted Bundy also returned to the corpses to enjoy sex with the now dead and absolute compliant bodies

http://daddu.net/25-seriously-disturbing-serial-killers-from-around-the-world/

The serial killers profiled below are listed in alphabetical order (by first names) — not in any order based on how “disturbing” I might find them, by race, nationality, etc. Also, understand that the definition of “serial killer” is heavily debated. For example some definitions simply state there must be a break between killings to separate serial killers from mass-murderers. Other definitions give a specific length that break must be in order to qualify as a serial killer rather than a spree killer. We’re not going split hairs about that here.

1. Ahmad Suradji

The idea of ritualistic serial killers on one hand baffles me and on the other hand fascinates me. They’re a reminder that the world is full of different cultures where different practices are considered acceptable than here in the West.

But Ahmad Suradji doesn't seem to be following any kind of cultural norm. Instead he just sounds deranged. At the same time, I have to admit it’s one of the more “interesting” excuses or motives I’ve ever seen. Here’s more on Indonesian serial killer, Ahmad Suradji.

Victims: Suradji murdered 42 females between the ages of 11 and 30. The killings took place over 11 years.

Killzone: Medan, Indonesia

Methods: Suradji buried his victims up to their waists and strangled them with a cable.

Motives: Suradji conducted ritual killings. He claimed to be told by his father’s ghost in a dream that by killing these women and drinking their saliva, he would become a mystic healer.

Outcome: Ahmad Suradji was found guilty on April 27, 1998 of his crimes and was executed by firing squad on July 10, 2008.

Additional Information: One of Suradji’s three wives (Tumini) was tried as an accomplice. Often Suradji’s victims were women who came to him seeking his services as a healer.

3. Alexander Pichushkin

Alexander Pichushkin is a Russian serial killer known as “The Chessboard Killer.” Unlike some killers who have almost understandable motives (such as being abused or tortured themselves in some way — not that it excuses anything), Pichushkin is a whole different level of crazy. He killed for the competition of it.

Victims: Pichushkin has 48 verified victims. While not all, most of them were elderly homeless men.

Kill Zone: Moscow, Russia

Methods: Most of Alexander Pichushkin victims were killed with hammer blows to the head. He preferred to strike them from behind supposedly to avoid spilling blood on himself. He then threw some of his victims into the sewers.

Motives: It is believed Pichushkin considered himself to be in competition with another serial killer — Andrei Chikatilo. At one point he mentioned that his “goal” was to kill 64 victims — enough to fill the squares on a chessboard, hence his nickname.

Outcome: Pichushkin was convicted on October 24, 2007 to life in prison, including 15 years of solitary confinement.

Additional Information: Pichushkin has been quoted as saying “For me, life without killing is like life without food for you…. I felt like the father of all these people, since it was I who opened the door for them to another world." He was kept in a glass cage during his trial.

4. Andrei Chikatilo

You've already seen the name Andrei Chikatilo mentioned, because he was at least partially the inspiration for another Russian serial killer — Alexander Pichushkin. Chikatilo was known by two nicknames — “The Red Ripper” and “The Rostov Ripper.”

Victims: Chikatilo killed 53 women and children (of both genders).

Kill Zone: Rostov Oblast, Russia

Methods: Chikatilo didn't kill all of his victims in the same way. Most were stabbed, but a few were strangled or battered to death. All were mutilated.

Motives: Chikatilo killed for sexual satisfaction — he could only become aroused by committing violent acts against women.

Outcome: Andrei Chikatilo was shot and executed on February 14, 1994.

Additional Information: Chikatilo was impotent due to a childhood illness, yet had two children of his own. His son Yuri was charged with the attempted murder of a man.

5. Carl Eugene Watts

One thing I find particularly disturbing is when killers start young and no one “notices” or stops them before they can escalate. According to Watts, he was one of those kinds of killers.

Victims: Watts killed females between the ages of 14 and 44. Twelve victims are confirmed, but it’s expected that there were more — possibly dozens.

Kill Zone: Texas and Michigan, United States

Methods: Watts wasn't faithful to any particular method of killing his victims. He use strangulation, stabbing, drowning, and beatings.

Motives: While his motives aren't believed to be sexual in nature (as with many serial killers), they aren’t known.

Outcome: Watts died of cancer on September 21, 2007 shortly after being sentenced to life in prison. Prior to this, he had been serving time in Texas.

Additional Information: Watts is believed to have had an IQ of just 68, and he may have killed his first victim at the young age of 15.

6. Carlton Gary

I won’t say that I do or don’t believe Carlton Gary is guilty of being “The Stocking Strangler.” But for all that we know, that’s who he is. Others disagree, and believe it’s a case of poor evidence. What do you think?

Victims: Carlton Gary is believed to have killed 7 elderly women.

Kill Zone: Georgia, United States

Methods: Victims were beaten, raped, and then strangled to death.

Outcome: Gary was convicted of murder on August 26, 1986 and then sentenced to death. He is still on death row. He was supposed to be executed on December 16, 2009 but the Georgia Supreme Court stopped his execution the day it was supposed to happen to allow for a hearing on the DNA evidence.

7. Dana Sue Gray

Have you ever seen an “outfit to die for?” Apparently serial killer / shopaholic Dana Sue Gray has. This has got to be one of the most screwed up motives for murder I’ve seen. But really, greed is one of the oldest I guess.

Victims: Gray killed 3 elderly women age 57 – 87, and a fourth victim survived.

Kill Zone: California, United States

Methods: Two of the victims were strangled with telephone cords (the survivor was one of them), one was beaten, and one was stabbed.

Motives: Gray’s motives were financial. She said she killed her victims to support her overwhelming need to shop. She stole cash and credit cards from her victims to help support her lifestyle.

Outcome: Gray was convicted and sentenced to life without parole on October 16, 1998.

8. Dean Arnold Corll

Child molester / serial killer, Dean Arnold Corll — known as “The Candy Man” — received a fate rather deserved (at least in this writer’s eyes). I won’t even share what I think should be done to people who abuse and kill children. This is the kind of killer nightmares are made of.

Victims: He killed 27 or 28 young boys.

Kill Zone: Texas, United States

Methods: Victims were raped / sexually assaulted, tortured, and then strangled or shot.

Outcome: He was killed by one of his accomplices.

Additional Information: He had two accomplices who found his victims for him — for $200 each. Apparently that’s the price of a little boy’s life.

9. Elizabeth Báthory

the “Blood Countess” Elizabeth Báthory.

Victims: Although she was never personally tried, hundreds of female accomplices were convicted for 80 murders.

Kill Zone: Kingdom of Hungary

Methods: Victims were treated to torture, mutilation, and beatings.

Outcome: The accomplices of Elizabeth Báthory were executed. She, on the other hand, was bricked into rooms of her castle for house arrest. She was found dead on August 21, 1614.

Additional Information: Legend has it that she killed and then bathed in the blood of virgins to try to maintain her youth.

10. Gary Leon Ridgway

Gary Leon Ridgway — “The Green River Killer” — makes my list of one of the most disturbing serial killers for the sheer volume of victims he had. It’s a reminder that sometimes awful people really can evade the law for quite some time. And that is something I find terrifying.

Victims: Ridgway was convicted of 48 murders, although he confessed to killing 71 women. He generally killed prostitutes that he would pick up and have sex with before committing the murders.

Kill Zone: Washington, United States

Methods: Strangulation

Outcome: Ridgway pled guilty to 48 counts of murder on November 5, 2003. He was then sentenced to life in prison without parole.

Additional Information: Ridgway is said to have an IQ of 82.

11. Gregorio Cárdenas Hernández

When I think of violence in Mexico, I tend to think about drug-related instances and deaths — not serial killers. But I guess we all have our “outstanding citizens” don’t we? Gregorio Cárdenas Hernández — also known as the “Strangler of Tacuba” — didn’t have a lot of victims. But what he did with them is disturbingly strange.

Victims: Cárdenas Hernández killed 3 teenage girls — two 16-year-old prostitutes and one 19-year-old student.

Kill Zone: Mexico City, Mexico

Methods: After having sex with his victims, he strangled them and buried their bodies in his garden.

Outcome: He was arrested and given a life sentence in 1942, but escaped from prison in

1947. After being re-arrested he stayed in prison until 1976 when he was pardoned, cited as a great example of rehabilitation. He died in 1999, of natural causes.

Additional Information: He studied law and psychiatry while in prison, and practiced law after his release. He also wrote three books.

12. Huang Yong

Apparently “because I wanted to” is a good enough motive to become a serial killer for some. I don’t know about you, but in my mind that’s even worse than killing people for their money because you like to spend too much.

Victims: Yong killed at least 17 teenage boys (but based on a survivor’s account, it was 25).

Kill Zone: Henan province, China

Methods: He drugged, rapes, and then suffocated his victims.

^{Motives: Huang Yong was quoted as saying “I’ve always wanted to be an assassin since I was a kid, but I never had the chance.”}

Outcome: He was both sentenced to death and then executed by firing squad December 2003 — apparently the Chinese don’t wait around. And in this case and the admission, really, I can’t say I blame them.

Additional Information: Yong was a migrant laborer, and he kept his victim’s belts as souvenirs. He claimed that killing females wouldn’t make him as much of a “hero” as killing males.

13. Jack the Ripper

Jack the Ripper might be famous, but he’s still relatively unknown. His identity has never been discovered. In fact, the murders attributed to him might not have even been committed by the same person. But Jack the Ripper makes my list of some of the most disturbing serial killers in the world because, real or not, the lore surrounding those White chapel killings went a long way towards solidifying the image of the sinister serial killer in many of our minds — an image that might even be dangerous, given the socially charming nature of others.

Victims: Jack the Ripper was believed to have killed at least 5 prostitutes from 1888-1891.

Kill Zone: London, England (White chapel District)

Methods: Victims’ throats were slit and their abdomens were mutilated.

Additional Information: A letter supposedly sent to the media from the killer ignited a media frenzy around the image of Jack the Ripper.

14. Jeffrey Dahmer

Yes, Jeffrey Dahmer is another one of the more famous serial killers, but I didn’t promise to leave them all off. Let’s just say there was precious little Dahmer did that didn't make him disturbing enough for this list. Eating your victims is more than enough for me.

Victims: Dahmer killed 17 young men and boys. His victims were of Asian or African descent.

Kill Zone: Wisconsin, United States

Methods: Dahmer was guilty of rape, torture, **********, and cannibalism.

Outcome: Jeffrey Dahmer was sentenced to 15 terms of life in prison in 1992, and he was killed by a fellow inmate on November 28, 1994.

Additional Information: Apparently on May 27, 1991, a 14 year old victim got away. But when he went to police and Dahmer claimed he was his 19 year old boyfriend, police returned the boy to the killer. The boy was murdered that night.

15. Luis Garavito

“La Bestia,” Luis Garavito, is one of the most prolific serial killers on our list. He’s another one who preyed on young boys, making him doubly disgusting — both for his choice in victims and the number of people he killed.

Victims: There are at least 138 confirmed victims of Luis Garavito — young boys.

Kill Zone: He committed his murders across 59 counties in Colombia.

Methods: Victims were raped, had their throats slit, and were then dismembered.

Outcome: Garavito was convicted on April 22, 1999, and is serving the maximum sentence available in Colombia. Although that sentence is only 30 years, he could still possibly be tried for other crimes he wasn’t yet convicted for, keeping him in longer. That said, there’s also the possibility he could be released early.

16. Mary Ann Cotton

Mary Ann Cotton is a prime example of the “black widow” type of female serial killer. She tended to kill husbands, lovers, or those in her way. Well, you know what they say about a “woman scorned” — or in this case just a woman who wants something from you.

Victims: Cotton had 21 victims including husbands, lovers, and “competitors” (other women who were involved with her male victims).

Kill Zone: Durham, England

Methods: Cotton poisoned her victims.

Motives: She killed her victims for two reasons: financial security (collecting on life insurance policies) and jealousy.

Outcome: Cotton was hanged in March 1873.

Additional Information: At the time it was assumed many of her victims died of “gastric fever” rather than poison.

17. Moses Sithole

Moses Sithole is a South African serial killer. What makes him most disturbing isn’t even how he killed his victims, but rather the fact that he would call and taunt his victims’ families.

Victims: Sithole killed 30 or more women before he was tried.

Kill Zone: Johannesburg, South Africa

Methods: Victims were raped and strangled.

Outcome: He was convicted on December 5, 1997 and sentenced to 2410 years in prison. He will be eligible for parole after 930 years — 2927. That’s an oddly comforting, if not almost amusing, thought.

Additional Information: Sithole is believed to have posed as a businessman offering jobs in order to gain the trust of the women he murdered.

18. Peter Kürten

When you think of vampires, what era do you think of? I certainly don’t think of the 1900s… unless we’re talking about movies. But around 1930 the world met serial killer Peter Kürten, labeled the “Vampire of Düsseldorf.”

Victims: While he was only charged with 9 murders and 7 attempted murders, Kürten actually confessed to 79 killings.

Kill Zone: Düsseldorf, Germany

Methods: He intentionally chose to use a variety of killing methods to keep police in the dark about the connection between the murders.

Motives: His motive was of the good old “can’t get it up” variety. He killed for sexual stimulation, needing to see blood to become aroused.

Outcome: I’m sure he would have been pleased by the blood on display July 2, 1931 when he was executed by guillotine.

+Additional Information: Kürten claimed that he committed his first murders when he was just 5 years old, drowning two friends.

19. Robert Hansen

Robert Hansen took advantage of the Alaskan wilderness when he killed his victims. All in all he isn’t much different than other serial killers. What caught my attention about Hansen was his seeming addiction to “the hunt” — and I don’t just mean finding new victims.

Victims: Hansen is believed to have killed somewhere between 17 and 21 young women, with a particular emphasis on prostitutes.

Killzone: Alaska, United States

Methods: Hansen’s victims were kidnapped, raped, then released. Hansen would then hunt his victims around his cabins like hunting game, and they were ultimately killed with a hunting knife or a rifle.

Outcome: Hansen pled guilty to 4 of the murders, and has served in various federal prisons since June 13, 1983.

Additional Information: Hansen took jewelry from his victims.

20. Robert Maudsley

Robert Maudsley — “Hannibal the Cannibal” — makes the list not only for the belief that he ate part of the brain of one of his victims, but because of the types of people he killed.

Victims: Maudsley had 4 victims, but 3 of them were murdered while they were in prison.

Killzone: Berkshire, England

Methods: One victim was killed by strangulation, another by torture, and two others by stabbings.

Outcome: Maudsley initially went to prison in 1974. But after killing 3 fellow prisoners he was placed in solitary confinement in 1983.

Additional Information: Three of Maudsley’s 4 victims were actually child molesters or sex offenders. Honestly that makes me dislike him just a wee bit less.

21. Robert Pickton

Here’s another killer who didn't make this list because of how he killed his victims, but rather for something he did with their bodies after the fact. Robert Pickton fed the bodies of his victims to pigs. Yeah.

Victims: Pickton was convicted of killing 6 people, but charged with the murders of 20 others. He murdered prostitutes.

Killzone: Vancouver, Canada

Methods: Pickton killed his victims by strangling and mutilation. Details are largely unknown about victims he wasn't convicted on, but there were also possibly gunshot victims.

Outcome: His conviction on 6 counts of second degree murder happened on December 9, 2007. He’s serving a life sentence with no possibility of parole for 25 years.

Additional Information: Robert Pickton’s story was loosely used in an episode of TV’s CSI and also served as the basis for an episode of Criminal Minds.

22. Saeed Hanaei

I don’t know which is worse… killing people because you are morally depraved, or killing people because you think you’re cleansing that depravity or corruption. Apparently Iranian serial killer Saeed Hanaei — the “Spider Killer” — had no problem with the latter.

Victims: Hanaei killed 16 prostitutes, with an emphasis on prostitutes who were drug addicts.

Killzone: Mashhad, Iran

Methods: Hanaei strangled his victims.

Motives: He killed his victims because he believed he was eliminating their moral corruption.

Outcome: Saeed Hanaei was hanged on April 8, 2002.

Additional Information: Hanaei was called the “spider killer” because he lured women to his home before having sex with and murdering them, similar to the way a spider lures prey into its web. Hanaei was a high profile and controversial figure in Iran. Some fundamentalists even praised his actions (although I can’t quite see how sleeping with prostitutes before killing them is any kind of moral high ground — but hey, that’s just me). Hanaei’s murders were the inspiration behind Alice Cooper’s 2008 “Along Came a Spider.”

23. Ted Bundy

Credit: Wikimedia

Okay. So Ted Bundy is another pretty well-known serial killer. But cutting off and keeping the heads of victims definitely puts him in my list of seriously disturbing serial killers.

Victims: Bundy confessed to over 30 murders of white middle-class females between the ages of 15 and 25.

Killzone: Washington, Oregon, Utah, Idaho, Colorado, and Florida, United States

Methods: Bundy’s victims were beaten then strangled. He was also guilty of rape and **********.

Outcome: Bundy faced execution by the electric chair in Florida on January 24, 1989.

Additional Information: Bundy tended to kill women that resembled his fiancé and had similar hair styles. But because they were physically different in other ways, Bundy denied a resentment towards here was part of his motive.

24. Tsutomu Miyazaki

Well, when someone’s known by names like the “Little Girl Murderer” and “Dracula,” it just can’t be good. I’m guessing the “Dracula” title would be a hint that Tsutomu Miyazaki drank blood from his victims. But here’s the even more disturbing part. (And yes… it gets more disturbing than drinking the blood of little girls.) He was also known to have eaten hands of a victim. Oh, and just for good measure, he went out of his way to torment his victims’ families. I literally can’t read about this man without feeling physically ill.

Victims: Miyazaki killed 4 little girls between 4 and 7 years old.

Killzone: Tokyo, Japan

Methods: Bodies were mutilated and corpses were molested.

Outcome: Miyazaki was sentenced to death April 14, 1997 and hanged June 17, 2008.

Additional Information: Miyazaki was born with deformed hands fused directly to his wrists, and contacted family members of victims with cryptic, taunting messages (and even the cremated remains of one victim). At one point, anime and horror films were cited as the reason for his crimes.

[Beany]

Get on the wrong side of these depots and then if you are still alive tell my that there is no such thing as evil?

http://listverse.com...f-evil-leaders/

I am very interested in the minds of famous evil men. Many of them are very quotable, so I decided to write a list on some of their best quotes. Much of the time, their evil shows through their quotes. Other times, it doesn’t. If you have other quotes from famous evil people (not necessarily just leaders) or more from those mentioned here, please include them in the comments.

1

Quotes 20 – 15

20. “Death is the solution to all problems. No man – no problem.” – Joseph Stalin

19. “Americans are the great Satan, the wounded snake.” – Ayatollah Khomeini

18. “The only white man you can trust is a dead white man.” – Robert Mugabe

17. “Terror is only justice: prompt, severe and inflexible; it is then an emanation of virtue; it is less a distinct principle than a natural consequence of the general principle of democracy, applied to the most pressing wants of the country.” — Maximilien Robespierre

16. “Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate (grundlich aufzaumen) its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention.” – Talat Pasha

15. To read too many books is harmful. — Mao Zedong

Quotes 15 – 11

15. “You cannot run faster than a bullet.” – Idi Amin

14. “I want you to know that everything I did, I did for my country.”- Pol Pot

13. “Keep your faith in God, but keep your powder dry.” – Oliver Cromwell

12. “We love death. The U.S. loves life. That is the difference between us two.” – Osama bin Laden

11. “Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed.” – Mao Zedong

3Quotes 10 – 6

10. “A man who dreads trials and difficulties cannot become a revolutionary. If he is to become a revolutionary with an indomitable fighting spirit, he must be tempered in the arduous struggle from his youth. As the saying goes, early training means more than late earning.” – Kim Jong-il

9. “The oppressed peoples can liberate themselves only through struggle. This is a simple and clear truth confirmed by history.” – Kim Il-Sung

8. “One thing I congratulate everyone on is the great explosion which has occurred in Washington’s Black House and the very important scandal which has gripped leaders of America.” – Ayatollah Khomeini

7. “Generals think war should be waged like the tourneys of the Middle Ages. I have no use for knights; I need revolutionaries.” – Adolf Hitler

6. “Equality means nothing unless incorporated into the institutions.” – Slobodan Milosevic

5. “I didn’t say ‘former president,’ I said ‘president,’ and I have the constitutional rights according to the constitution, including immunity from prosecution.” – Saddam Hussein

4. “To sum it all up, I must say that I regret nothing.” – Adolf Eichmann

3. “We need not fear the judgment of history. Who, after all, speaks today of the extermination of the Armenians?” – Adolf Hitler

2. “Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas.” – Josef Stalin

1. “One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.” – Josef Stalin

Just to be clear, this is from an article by John Waller on ListVerse.

[Beany]

Enigma of the existence of evil and the Garden of Eden and GOD the Benevolent

I know the story of the Garden and Eden and the fall of man are thought to be a mythical account of a people long past in the mists of time, but I base this essay on the literal reading of the Book of Genesis and that the Bible is a true account of what happened there long ago.

Remember that Adams name means "Man or Humanity! Thus the story about Adam and Eve is also about humanity still to be born

I will try in my own way to answer this most difficult question.

How can we ever reconcile the fact of evil, suffering and pain, existing side by side with a supposedly benevolent Holy God of light and love?

Let us go back to the story of the Garden of Eden Geneses Chap 2 verse 17, where God says to Adam, that dam may eat of any tree except for the "tree of knowledge of good and evil"

Note; The tree of knowledge of Good and evil, so Evil existed before Adam. "Adam" also represents entire humanity, still to be born and how these still to be born, would have to relate to God.

It is true that God is all-knowing, thus he knew before hand that Adam was going to fail the test and eat the forbidden fruit as urged of by his wife Eve, the name Eve means “out of man” and she was a reflection of all woman still to be born and how woman would interact with God all down the history of the world, just like it did for Adam her husband.

So why did God give Adam and Eve a test he knew they would fail? , it does no seem fair at first glance?

I hear a loud reply from the forum "because He wanted us to have a free will and not be robots". Maybe??

It its partly true that when God created Adam and then humanity that God did give Adam/humanity a free will but at the same moment did not want Adam/humanity to be robots, controlled by him by some means of remote control, making them into mindless entities ,always on his beck and call a mere toy for him to play with.

In the above scenario, of absolute free will, God would have had to constantly observing mankind’s ever action , decision and thought and forcing them all to do only right things. He would have had to manipulating Adam-Humanity, from hurting themselves as well as from doing things he disapproved of.

To get this right God would have to have acted proactively or before Adam-Eve-Humanity could think about doing a potentially hurtful bad activity to themselves or others Thus without a free will Adam- -humanity would have had to have been forced by God to act and think and perform like his puppet, into doing exactly what He wanted them to do all through eternity.

Continuing in this vain, if God had given Adam-humanity a totally free will without any reservations he being, Holy Perfect would have had to investigate every act of Adam-humanities down to their every thought and intervene on very single moment of their lives, before they could act out an incorrect thought. Every action or decision made by Adam-humanity would have been first have had to be vetted and approved by God, before he would have allowed Adam-humanity to do what he allowed them to do. Of course the holocaust could and would never happen in such a one sided controlled environment.

However God did not want blind controlled obedient robots, but entities similar to him. because he obviously has a free will, he wanted his created beings to enjoy the same freedom of choice as he had and become his children and companions.

Thus God decided to give humanity as test, which he knew they would fail.

Surely, God could simply have give Adam a free will and allow him to anything he wanted to do without the "necessity of any test". but no!

Nevertheless, God, in his infinite wisdom goes ahead and gives Adam (and Eve) a test he "knows they are going to fail, why? Was this fair seeing the awful consequences for humanity down through the age?

Yes absolutely as I will describe later in this essay!

Let us go back to the origin of evil, where did it come from.

Isaiah Cap. 45 Verse 7 G-D says "I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create "evil" I God do all these things. God made everything so he must have made evil but why?

Let us go back to Adam and the pampered environment of the Garden of Eden. If Adam and Eve had been left in the Garden of Eden, remained there and obeyed God by not eating the forbidden fruit. In this hypothetical situation, God would have known that Adam and Eve were going to obey Him and after their obedience of passing the test allowed them to existed forever a paradise setting of beauty warmth, comfort, never ever have to toil work just reach out and eat do any thing they want.

Of course on first glance this seems wonderful but think about it a little longer This state of eternal infinite never ending sugary perfection, would be wonderful for say a hundred years or a thousand years a hundred thousand years, but having never ever experienced cold, they could not appreciate warmth, never being hungry never appreciate the joy and taste of food, never being thirsty they would not appreciate the taste and satisfaction of sparking water , never knowing hate the would not know what love was etc .

Therefore, after countless years in this paradise setting it would have become a boring never changing hell to them. Therefore, God, in his infinite wisdom and love, simply had to banish them into the world or toil sorrow and hardship, in order for humanity to truly appreciate paradise, because they had experienced suffering, pain, and sorrow in this mortal world.

Adam's and Eve’s offspring would also have to existed forever in this a one-sided unchallenged reality in Eden, never knowing or appreciated the wonder of eternal life, because they would not know what death was, or how really beautiful the paradise they existed in because, they would never experienced the opposite, etc etc..

But God knew in his infinite wisdom that to become like him they must know evil, pain and sorrow to become fully functional free thinking beings similar to him in consciousness and indeed co- creators of their own domain and reality after death.

God was being fair with Adam and Eve-Humanity and did give them the test, which he knew they would fail. God in deep and profound sorrow had drive them out from the paradise of Eden , into the present reality world of thorns, cold, dark, pain, evil etc, etc. This reality is based on a duality we know evil so we know the beauty of goodness; we know truth so we can hate the lie, and we experience the light so that we know dark.

Humanity can look back on a "paradise lost with a longing to for the eternal wonder and beauty of the original Eden, which they would love and rejoice as paradise regained

God however made a plan to rejoin him in Jesus Christ the lord, by free choice and with the full knowledge that heaven is an unimaginable wonder beautiful place of everlasting life.

Good and evil

Light and dark

Truth and lie

Deception and honesty

Love and hate

War and Peace

Positive and negative

Faith and despair

Holiness and depravity

Warm and hot

Life and death

It is up to you or me choose life or eternal death!

The one who you obey and will you are doing is your true master no matter what you state to the contrary

By Alan McDougall

Is this a blog, Alan? If so, please post it in the blog section. I see you've posted & re-posted this several times on various sites on the net.

[White Crane Feather]

Why do you think consciousness built upon duality?

Consciousness is much more than making choices between opposing or competing forms. It seems to me that what you consider to the duality is only a small part of what consciousness is all about.

Sentience is built upon distinguishing I from other, then the revelation that I know that I am. True consciousness is an informational feedback loop. I am because I know that I am... Why? Because I know that I am. Sentience arises from this distinguishment. It's hard to make somone understand who may have never experienced true ego dissolvment before. Some find it terrifying some find it enlightening.

It's not about choices its about recognition which in the end may be an illusion, but a necessary one for sentience to exist. Even after an ego dissolvment experience it takes the seperation to even be aware of the exsoerience. Duality is a necessity for the entire universe to function properly. From magnets, to virtual particles, to consciousness.

We exist in the universe of the relative.

Edited June 14, 2014 by White Crane Feather

[Mr Walker]

To respond to the opening post, without quoting the whole thing again.

You are right in everything, except that god knew humans would "fail the test" No real living entity, god or otherwise, can know a future which does not exist, and is not fore ordained to exist. They can foresee possible futures, even the most probable outcomes, but not know which will come to pass, because unlike the present/past, the future does not yet exist in fixed form.

Thus god did not know that adam and eve would disobey him. There actually was no 'test" at all. The tree was put in the garden as a teaching tool possibly for when adam and eve became more wise and adult. It was a part of their environment.

When a parent tells a child not to touch the fire, is this a test of the child? No, it is an instruction to keep them safe from harm from a necessary element in their environment. .It was not impossible, or even unlikely, that mankind might NOT eat of the fruit (in some interpretations all the inhabitants of other planets obeyed god and remained in a symbiotic relationship with him.) Indeed why assume that adam and eve would find the serpent's challenging irresistible ? They could just as easily have just chosen to obey god. Their choice was never set in stone, and it was never intended as a test of their faithfulness, although it might look like such when we look back on it.

In the metaphorical or allegorical interpretation of this story, Mankind had, and still has, a choice between a materialist life of knowledge which brings good and evil or a spiritual and wise life which brings only good. We chose, and continue to choose, the materialist road for our own comfort and reasons, despite the harm it brings to us as human beings who require spiritual wisdom in our lives to be happy and content. Knowledge gives us power .Wisdom brings us peace; but humans tend to chose power over peace.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Mr Walker

[Alan McDougall]

Just to be clear, this is from an article by John Waller on ListVerse.

I gave the link!

[Beany]

I gave the link!

I know you did, Alan. That's why I said "just to be clear."

[Beany]

To respond to the opening post, without quoting the whole thing again.

You are right in everything, except that god knew humans would "fail the test" No real living entity, god or otherwise, can know a future which does not exist, and is not fore ordained to exist. They can foresee possible futures, even the most probable outcomes, but not know which will come to pass, because unlike the present/past, the future does not yet exist in fixed form.

Thus god did not know that adam and eve would disobey him. There actually was no 'test" at all. The tree was put in the garden as a teaching tool possibly for when adam and eve became more wise and adult. It was a part of their environment.

When a parent tells a child not to touch the fire, is this a test of the child? No, it is an instruction to keep them safe from harm from a necessary element in their environment. .It was not impossible, or even unlikely, that mankind might NOT eat of the fruit (in some interpretations all the inhabitants of other planets obeyed god and remained in a symbiotic relationship with him.) Indeed why assume that adam and eve would find the serpent's challenging irresistible ? They could just as easily have just chosen to obey god. Their choice was never set in stone, and it was never intended as a test of their faithfulness, although it might look like such when we look back on it.

In the metaphorical or allegorical interpretation of this story, Mankind had, and still has, a choice between a materialist life of knowledge which brings good and evil or a spiritual and wise life which brings only good. We chose, and continue to choose, the materialist road for our own comfort and reasons, despite the harm it brings to us as human beings who require spiritual wisdom in our lives to be happy and content. Knowledge gives us power .Wisdom brings us peace; but humans tend to chose power over peace.

Do you think it's possible that materialism in a mild form can coexist with a spiritual life? I don't see the two as necessarily being exclusive to one another, but that they can co-exist in balance.

[Alan McDougall]

Do you think it's possible that materialism in a mild form can coexist with a spiritual life? I don't see the two as necessarily being exclusive to one another, but that they can co-exist in balance.

Of course you might be right, but think of it this way! Would a preschool child pass a university level mathematical test, of course not? Likewise God knew that they would fail the test without looking into the future!

Absolute yes that materialism can coexist with spiritual life, I know this because I have experienced just that during my life!.

[Mr Walker]

Do you think it's possible that materialism in a mild form can coexist with a spiritual life? I don't see the two as necessarily being exclusive to one another, but that they can co-exist in balance.

That is my opinion In my view the allegorical tale of eden explains mans transition from the spiritual based life of early man who lived with and from the earth s bounty and was entirely dependent on the gifts of the earth, to first nomadic pastoralism and then agriculture where man began to use skills tools and knowledge to shape his environment. This made him less dependent from nature and more reliant on his own skills and material power.

With such knolwdge ( such as fire metal making and accumulation of a surplus) comes good and evil, and the power to do both. In my view the tale explains how people moved too quickly and completely to a materialist based world and forgot their connection to nature and their spiritual connection to the world. We have progressively worsened this situation ever since.

Hence, in the biblical story, we return to a state where we do not need technology because we live where there is no pain or suffering deaht or decay and where everything is provided by our connection to a powerful god. While this is unrealistic, it suggests how a wise and spiritual race might choose to live.

When I had a triple by pass I benefitted from both the best of modern medicine, and from the presence of god which removed fear, pain, worry and doubt. A correct mix of material and spiritual life can fulfil the human potential and make us much better as individuals and as a race. It is not, importantly, material things which corrupt us but the LOVE of those things above the spiritual

I enjoy downloading and watching movies but I could live without tha.t and even without electricity or the things dependent on electricity (after all my grandparents did so.) I also enjoy the relationships with those around me and our mutual love and respect. I would find it far harder to live without that (my grandparents and even my parents lived in a world with far more of that love respect care compassion duty and loyalty and had happier lives for this)

I need the money I earn, to live, although I don't need much of it to feed and clothe us and provide comfortable shelter.. But if I had money from an independent source, I would continue to work, for the joy it gives me and because I would be helping others.

[Mr Walker]

Of course you might be right, but think of it this way! Would a preschool child pass a university level mathematical test, of course not? Likewise God knew that they would fail the test without looking into the future!

Absolute yes that materialism can coexist with spiritual life, I know this because I have experienced just that during my life!.

It does not take university knowledge to obey a direct command from an authority figure . God could well have assumed his children would obey him. Why would he assume they would not? More importantly the writer of the story would have assumed that young children have a choice of behaviour. Ie to obey or to disobey Some children obey, some are disobedient. Both actions have consequences but neither are pre ordained.

In a sense, this is what the story is about A university educated person is LESS likely to obey a command from an authority figure than a young child. It wasn't a hard choice, or a complicated one. Do what god had told you to do, or do what he told you not to do, and accept the consequences he had warned you would follow from disobedience. Touch the fire and you WILL be burned.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Mr Walker