Merkel still backs Juncker...

[Space Commander Travis]

Keith and Steve, you both seem to have a very poor grasp on how representative democracy functions. If you don't hold the majority you don't get to decide. Thats how it works in the UK, Eire, Spain and Germany. Get over it.

Br Cornelius

If only that was true, but that's not how it works is it, certainly not in the UK; when was the last PM elected who did hold a majority? (of the electorate, that is, not just of the number of votes actually cast, which is frankly cheating.)

[Space Commander Travis]

Well, failed, the other strategy won and bickering about it just shows some sore looser. The winner will be the European people as their parliament has been put a little more into the driver seat.

the European people??! I didn't have you down as a slogan chanter. Who are these European People? These People who pledge their allegiance to the Greater European Empire? Cos surely the European Empire doesn't have much concern for the citizens of the individual countries, does it. it's all about itself, and getting power for itself and being able to dictate what the smaller members of the Empire must do, and its ambition to become a Superpower, isn't it. Come on now.

[questionmark]

the European people??! I didn't have you down as a slogan chanter. Who are these European People? These People who pledge their allegiance to the Greater European Empire? Cos surely the European Empire doesn't have much concern for the citizens of the individual countries, does it. it's all about itself, and getting power for itself and being able to dictate what the smaller members of the Empire must do, and its ambition to become a Superpower, isn't it. Come on now.

Yep, as seen with Wilder's loss, with Seehofer's loss, with Grillo's loss and so on, in most European countries all who were against the EU and against the Euro lost votes, the exception being France and Britain. So yes, for most of these people the EU seems to be important.

[Space Commander Travis]

So who are these European People? Is there a tremendous upsurge in people who pledge allegiance to the European Flag and think of themselves first and foremost as Citizens of the European Empire?

[questionmark]

So who are these European People? Is there a tremendous upsurge in people who pledge allegiance to the European Flag and think of themselves first and foremost as Citizens of the European Empire?

Ask them, but certainly people for whom a bigger European integration and the conservation of the achieved is important, else they would have done like in Britain, because about every country has its "Euro-skeptics", and in some countries they even managed to get as many votes as the Neonazis.

[Guest]

Most people in continental Europe feel European and see the benefits of been within a European Union. Britain is very definitely the exception and its probably why DeGaul was right in blocking the UK's entry. The shame seem to be that they then begged to be let in and have since been begging to be let out. Seems as though the British fundamentally misunderstood what they were doing from the start.

Br Cornelius

[Harry_Dresden]

My view is Britain cannot afford to try to go it separate from Europe. They need to compromise and Europe needs to compromise.

Compromise? Cameron and the anti-Europeans want to cheery pick the economic benefits outta the entire European project, stay on the decision making process to stop integration and then blackmail the EU with this "in-out" referendum if the rest of Europe doesn't agree to the British euro sceptics plans of stopping this integration. Where exactly are you seeing Cameron and Co, compromising?

Cameron and Co will fall flat on their ****'s before Europe backs down.

[keithisco]

Most people in continental Europe feel European and see the benefits of been within a European Union. Britain is very definitely the exception and its probably why DeGaul was right in blocking the UK's entry. The shame seem to be that they then begged to be let in and have since been begging to be let out. Seems as though the British fundamentally misunderstood what they were doing from the start.

Br Cornelius

You do seem to make some very grandiose statements: "Most people in continental Europe feel European", on the contrary, and this is based on my experience of having business interests in France, Germany, and Spain (also the UK and USA) - more importantly I actually live in Continental Europe and my experience is that most people feel Spanish, German, French etc first - "European" trails a poor second.

The UK joined a common market, not a Federal Europe. The goalposts moved after the UK entry into the system so NO the UK fundamentally UNDERSTOOD what they were joining from the start the fact that it changed after accession is the real issue.

The current feeling here in "Continental Europe" (at least the part in which I live) is that of immense concern that should the UK exit become a reality, it will seriously diminish the Political clout of the EU and it's international standing.

On another note, when travelling through the USA a common meme is that the USA will support the UK on exit by expanding bi-lateral Trade to more than make up for any balance of trade deficit. This from multiple Chambers of Commerce throughout the East, mid - west, and North West states.

[Space Commander Travis]

Ask them, but certainly people for whom a bigger European integration and the conservation of the achieved is important,

That'd be the politicians, then.

[Frank Merton]

Feelings of identity and loyalty almost always go with language first and religion second, not with political boundaries. Hence Austria could not hold together except by force and the splintering of Yugoslavia. Europe should not think of it becoming a united state like the United States until it has similar homogeneity.

That does not mean that a great deal cannot be accomplished with cooperation and unified policy: far more than as competing entities.

[Guest]

You do seem to make some very grandiose statements: "Most people in continental Europe feel European", on the contrary, and this is based on my experience of having business interests in France, Germany, and Spain (also the UK and USA) - more importantly I actually live in Continental Europe and my experience is that most people feel Spanish, German, French etc first - "European" trails a poor second.

Thats a fairly obvious statement and in no way contradicts what I just said. Just as been Welsh doesn't stop you been British and feeling the benefits of been British.

Most continental Europeans feel European and accept the benefits of the Union, and the majority (judging by the last EU election) favour greater integration.

And keith I find it one of those beautiful ironies that you live and work in Spain as a Brit because the EU at least partly facilitates you to, and you use Eastern European labour because the EU again facilitates that. Before the EU neither of these things would be easy to achieve in Spain. Ironic.

Br Cornelius

Edited June 30, 2014 by Guest

[keithisco]

Thats a fairly obvious statement and in no way contradicts what I just said. Just as been Welsh doesn't stop you been British and feeling the benefits of been British.

Most continental Europeans feel European and accept the benefits of the Union, and the majority (judging by the last EU election) favour greater integration.

Br Cornelius

With 21 Nations recording a less than 50% turnout (including Germany, France, UK) and overall turnout of just 43.09% then it is specious to say that the majority of EU Citizens favour greater integration, I would suggest that these figures point - up the fact that the average continental European believes they have no voice in EU Parliament so what is the point in voting.

Data Source: http://www.results-elections2014.eu/en/turnout.html

[Space Commander Travis]

With 21 Nations recording a less than 50% turnout (including Germany, France, UK) and overall turnout of just 43.09% then it is specious to say that the majority of EU Citizens favour greater integration, I would suggest that these figures point - up the fact that the average continental European believes they have no voice in EU Parliament so what is the point in voting.

Data Source: http://www.results-e...en/turnout.html

That's very interesting, a useful barometer of enthusiasm for the European Project perhaps? 90% in Belgium (where the European parliament is probably the biggest employer), less than 20% in Slovakia, Slovenia, CZ and only just over 20% in Poland: perhaps those countries that had hoped to benefit from the great big pot of money that they believed the EU would hand out to every country that joined, and perhaps disillusioned when that didn't happen.

[Harry_Dresden]

That's very interesting, a useful barometer of enthusiasm for the European Project perhaps? 90% in Belgium (where the European parliament is probably the biggest employer), less than 20% in Slovakia, Slovenia, CZ and only just over 20% in Poland: perhaps those countries that had hoped to benefit from the great big pot of money that they believed the EU would hand out to every country that joined, and perhaps disillusioned when that didn't happen.

...so according to you it didn't happen, and ALL those countries that you've mentioned (and the rest) are "disillusioned" with the EU project... so why are they still members and more importantly why is the UK?

[Guest]

With 21 Nations recording a less than 50% turnout (including Germany, France, UK) and overall turnout of just 43.09% then it is specious to say that the majority of EU Citizens favour greater integration, I would suggest that these figures point - up the fact that the average continental European believes they have no voice in EU Parliament so what is the point in voting.

Data Source: http://www.results-e...en/turnout.html

I think you will find that national election polls have only marginally higher turnouts. Politics in general is in the doghouse and not just your favourite boggyman the EU.

Its quite simple - if there was such widespread discontent the like of UKIP would have swept the board across Europe - which they clearly did not. Lets face it Keith the Euroskeptic seem to be the most likely to vote in protest so why don't they control and abolish the EU. Its a failure of logic to suggest that low turn outs mean most people want out - since if that were the case the EU would be dominated by the discontents.

Br Cornelius

Edited June 30, 2014 by Guest

[keithisco]

Thats a fairly obvious statement and in no way contradicts what I just said. Just as been Welsh doesn't stop you been British and feeling the benefits of been British.

Most continental Europeans feel European and accept the benefits of the Union, and the majority (judging by the last EU election) favour greater integration.

And keith I find it one of those beautiful ironies that you live and work in Spain as a Brit because the EU at least partly facilitates you to, and you use Eastern European labour because the EU again facilitates that. Before the EU neither of these things would be easy to achieve in Spain. Ironic.

Br Cornelius

Emphasis mine: I believe I have pointed out on several occasions that I employ local Nationals at every opportunity and that currently I do NOT employ any eastern Europeans. My business is now incorporated in Gibraltar because I have little faith in the European central Bank and its ability to prevent another euro crisis. Apart from day to day expenses all of my transactions are in Sterling.

You might also recall that there have been British Expats living and working in Spain for decades prior to the country becoming a member, and EU membership has not actually facilitated living or working in Spain for Brits.

[keithisco]

I think you will find that national election polls have only marginally higher turnouts. Politics in general is in the doghouse and not just your favourite boggyman the EU.

Its quite simple - if there was such widespread discontent the like of UKIP would have swept the board across Europe - which they clearly did not. Lets face it Keith the Euroskeptic seem to be the most likely to vote in protest so why don't they control and abolish the EU. Its a failure of logic to suggest that low turn outs mean most people want out - since if that were the case the EU would be dominated by the discontents.

Br Cornelius

Your argument is again specious because for it to hold true then the obverse must also hold true: IF Continental Europeans are really behind greater integration then the turnouts would have been much higher and the Pro - Integration Parties would have swept the board and gained massive support.

This clearly did not occur...

... and to counter another of your points that UKIP type parties would have made even greater gains; the truth is there are very few UKIP type parties in Europe, and so many people felt the only avenue for their frustration was to vote for the likes of Golden Dawn, and Front National

[Guest]

Stirling will not be any more a safe harbour than the Euro if and when a new crisis arises. The days of people carrying stirling as an international safe currency went back in the 1980's (coincident with the funny economics of the time). The UK and Stirling are far more exposed to the vagaries of the markets than almost any other currency on earth.

Br Cornelius

[Guest]

Your argument is again specious because for it to hold true then the obverse must also hold true: IF Continental Europeans are really behind greater integration then the turnouts would have been much higher and the Pro - Integration Parties would have swept the board and gained massive support.

This clearly did not occur...

... and to counter another of your points that UKIP type parties would have made even greater gains; the truth is there are very few UKIP type parties in Europe, and so many people felt the only avenue for their frustration was to vote for the likes of Golden Dawn, and Front National

Almost all countries in Europe have euroskeptic factions which should have shown greater gains if your argument where true. The fact is that most people in Europe feel fairly contented with the EU and so felt no need to issue a "protest vote" to make their feelings felt.

Br Cornelius

[keithisco]

Almost all countries in Europe have euroskeptic factions which should have shown greater gains if your argument where true. The fact is that most people in Europe feel fairly contented with the EU and so felt no need to issue a "protest vote" to make their feelings felt.

Br Cornelius

Emphasis mine

Those with non - fascist Eurosceptic parties ALL recorded gains, even in Germany. Unfortunately, the Neo - Nazis, where they offered the only opposition to the status quo, also made huge gains. Front National is the biggest party in France, UKIP is the biggest party inn the UK. You might want to read the following and the link - it might disabuse you of your rose - tinted spectacles:

Growth in opposition to 'intrusive' EU

But Bruce Stokes of the Pew Research Center, a US-based immigration research and policy organisation, says that it is opposition to the institutions of the EU itself and to immigration that seems to be driving the growth of the fringe party vote.

Writing on the CNN website, Mr Stokes said that polling shows that a majority (around 70%) of EU citizens believe that the EU intrudes into their daily lives and does not understand their needs. Around 60% think it is inefficient.

Link: http://www.workpermi...nst-immigration

In many countries the Eurosceptic parties are small and could not afford to run many candidates for MEP's.

Edited June 30, 2014 by keithisco

[Space Commander Travis]

...so according to you it didn't happen, and ALL those countries that you've mentioned (and the rest) are "disillusioned" with the EU project... so why are they still members and more importantly why is the UK?

Uh, sorry? According to me it didn't happen? What didn't happen? And really, come on now, 13% turnout doesn't exactly shout of overwhelming enthusiasm, does it now.

[keithisco]

Stirling will not be any more a safe harbour than the Euro if and when a new crisis arises. The days of people carrying stirling as an international safe currency went back in the 1980's (coincident with the funny economics of the time). The UK and Stirling are far more exposed to the vagaries of the markets than almost any other currency on earth.

Br Cornelius

The Pound Sterling is the world's 3rd largest Reserve Currency, and contrary to your assertion, UK Sterling is far LESS exposed to fluctuations in the Global Markets because it has full independent authority to adopt Interest Rates and Quantitative Easing to counter the worst excesses of other nations' profligacy.

When Ireland went cap - in hand to the ECB for a bailout do not think it would not have been necessary if you had full Fiscal control of your own currency?

I am going off-topic here because this really relates to the Eurozone, and not the EU Institutions.

[Guest]

Keith I have never said that there aren't Euroskeptic groupings across Europe - but they are still very much the minority - which is exactly what I claimed.

What has not happened is that they have not emerged as the majority in the EU. Fringe opposition groups always tend to do well in times of economic crisis because they represent a response of the perceived failings of the establishment. However the crisis is one of global economic capitalism and the protest is somewhat missing the mark in targeting the EU rather than the root cause. Until some grouping manages to formulate a more moderate and constrained form of capitalism the decline of all mainstream political parties will continue to the benefit of whatever fringe grouping happens to stick its head above the parapates

Br Cornelius

[Guest]

The Pound Sterling is the world's 3rd largest Reserve Currency, and contrary to your assertion, UK Sterling is far LESS exposed to fluctuations in the Global Markets because it has full independent authority to adopt Interest Rates and Quantitative Easing to counter the worst excesses of other nations' profligacy.

When Ireland went cap - in hand to the ECB for a bailout do not think it would not have been necessary if you had full Fiscal control of your own currency?

I am going off-topic here because this really relates to the Eurozone, and not the EU Institutions.

Ireland was subject to domestic mismanagement and when it happened in a similar way back in the 1980's, before the Euro, they went for help to the IMF. Irelands problems are ones of chronic mismanagement of the economic leavers it has available to it. Encouraging an unsustainable property bubble had little to do with the Euro and everything to do with venal politicians and a culture of systemic greed. Low interest rates were just a facilitator to a failure of domestic policy which could have avoided the crisis when it first appeared, instead they introduced policies which specifically inflated the property bubble higher.

The UK is burdened with massive debt and quantitative easing is the the most certain route to debauching Stirling in the long run. Britains over-dependence of financial services to support its GDP makes it acutely vulnerable to the world stock market fluctuations - a situation which should be troubling you in light of the effects of quantitative easing in re-inflating the stock market bubble all over again. There is just no substitute to having a stable productive domestic and exporting economy - and the UK is anything but in that situation.

It is likely that the collapse of the first reserve currency under the weight of quantitative easing, the dollar, will precipitate the next crisis which is hardly supportive of the thesis that size will offer intrinsic security. Exactly the same dynamics apply to Stirling as apply to the dollar - but Stirling is more vulnerable since it is smaller. I tend to look at the current situation with both the dollar and stirling as cashing in time at the great casino - loot what you can before the **** hits the fan.

Br Cornelius

Edited June 30, 2014 by Guest

[keithisco]

Keith I have never said that there aren't Euroskeptic groupings across Europe - but they are still very much the minority - which is exactly what I claimed.

What has not happened is that they have not emerged as the majority in the EU. Fringe opposition groups always tend to do well in times of economic crisis because they represent a response of the perceived failings of the establishment. However the crisis is one of global economic capitalism and the protest is somewhat missing the mark in targeting the EU rather than the root cause. Until some grouping manages to formulate a more moderate and constrained form of capitalism the decline of all mainstream political parties will continue to the benefit of whatever fringe grouping happens to stick its head above the parapates

Br Cornelius

I tend to agree with the import of your post. The EU is targeted because it has been a EU OP, and it seems to me that the same snouts will be in the same trough of Political Power within the EU Institutions totally disregarding the actual trending votes that have been cast. If the electorate is to be ignored (albeit a minority) then I can well see an awful Party such as the Front National in France winning a majority at their National Elections. If that happens then it will not just be the UK waiting at the exit door. The Front National are rabidly anti EU, and the loss of these 2 Nations will make the EU untenable. The FN is also anti - euro, and want the Franc re-adopted, seriously weakening the Euro