Merkel still backs Juncker...

[Guest]

Panic in the face of crisis is hardly the basis for sound economic and political decision making and that is what you have just described.

Br Cornelius

[keithisco]

Panic in the face of crisis is hardly the basis for sound economic and political decision making and that is what you have just described.

Br Cornelius

I believe that I am describing Political reality as it now is. Over the past decade anti-EU sentiment has been growing slowly at first, but now has a self - sustaining momentum having garnered sufficient support to start seeing political returns in the form of MEP seats. The EU Grandees can only ignore the changing face of politics for so long before a minority discontent becomes a rout of established EU practice and direction at the next elections.

France has national elections before the next EU Elections and if any of the projections pointing to a FN government and President are realised, then a sudden and dramatic change to the EU Institutions become inevitable. Political and Fiscal integration will become yesterdays plan, and possibly a simple Common Market emerging from the ashes.

None of this is certain of course "a day is a long time in Politics"

[Guest]

I believe that I am describing Political reality as it now is. Over the past decade anti-EU sentiment has been growing slowly at first, but now has a self - sustaining momentum having garnered sufficient support to start seeing political returns in the form of MEP seats. The EU Grandees can only ignore the changing face of politics for so long before a minority discontent becomes a rout of established EU practice and direction at the next elections.

France has national elections before the next EU Elections and if any of the projections pointing to a FN government and President are realised, then a sudden and dramatic change to the EU Institutions become inevitable. Political and Fiscal integration will become yesterdays plan, and possibly a simple Common Market emerging from the ashes.

None of this is certain of course "a day is a long time in Politics"

The rise of the French NF has everything to do with immigration from their former colonies and little to do with immigration from Europe. The same is largely true of the UK, UKIP is a response to former colonial immigration mainly and UKIP have just been opportunistic in linking it to the EU.

Its a world crisis caused by gross disparities of wealth and increasing ecological stress in the developing world - it will only be solved by solving the root causes and UKIP and the NF certainly aint proposing any of that.

The world is a fairly ****ed up place at the moment and people are looking for easy scapegoats to blame - and there will always be people like La Penn and Farage to given them what they want.

Br Cornelius

Edited June 30, 2014 by Guest

[questionmark]

That'd be the politicians, then.

That adjective would apply to at least 45% of the Europeans then (meaning those who went to vote and voted pro-federalist parties).

[Space Commander Travis]

That adjective would apply to at least 45% of the Europeans then (meaning those who went to vote and voted pro-federalist parties).

But if only 45% of Europeans voted for parties in favour of the European Onion, that doesn't sound like a majority are in favour to me.

[questionmark]

But if only 45% of Europeans voted for parties in favour of the European Onion, that doesn't sound like a majority are in favour to me.

Well, given that only 48% went to vote we will never know... except that it does not seem to be important to them whether national state or European Federation to the other 52%.

[keithisco]

The rise of the French NF has everything to do with immigration from their former colonies and little to do with immigration from Europe. The same is largely true of the UK, UKIP is a response to former colonial immigration mainly and UKIP have just been opportunistic in linking it to the EU.

Its a world crisis caused by gross disparities of wealth and increasing ecological stress in the developing world - it will only be solved by solving the root causes and UKIP and the NF certainly aint proposing any of that.

The world is a fairly ****ed up place at the moment and people are looking for easy scapegoats to blame - and there will always be people like La Penn and Farage to given them what they want.

Br Cornelius

I don't think that is right. I think it stems from the lies that Jack Straw fed the UK population when Poland first joined the EU - he claimed that no more than 13,000 Poles and other East Europeans would emigrate to the UK (in total) the reality was that 100,000 Poles alone were arriving annually. The UK Gov was powerless to stem the flood and had to find additional resources for an already creaking NHS SS and benefits system, let alone affordable housing shortages for the local population.

UKIP is actually VERY Pro Commonwealth ties, because the UK always had control over the numbers and quality of candidate Citizens.

I certainly do not in any way liken UKIP to the French FN (UKIP refuse to have anything to do with them - let alone permitting them membership of their EU Grouping).

[keithisco]

Well, given that only 48% went to vote we will never know... except that it does not seem to be important to them whether national state or European Federation to the other 52%.

43,09 % - lets not overinflate the turnout (massively skewed by Belgium and Luxembourg's 90% turnout as the nations who actually survive, financially, on the backs of the EU). It suggests to me that 56,91% of the electorate thought that whoever they voted for somehow the "Old Guard" would still be pulling the strings.

[Frank Merton]

The US gets similar turnouts in by-elections. I think it indicates people are not particularly upset with how things are. It might indicate they don't think their vote is worth anything. Probably a mix of these factors.

[questionmark]

43,09 % - lets not overinflate the turnout (massively skewed by Belgium and Luxembourg's 90% turnout as the nations who actually survive, financially, on the backs of the EU). It suggests to me that 56,91% of the electorate thought that whoever they voted for somehow the "Old Guard" would still be pulling the strings.

To me it just suggest that there are more who could not care less because there is no country where they could have not voted a pendant of UKIP.

[keithisco]

To me it just suggest that there are more who could not care less because there is no country where they could have not voted a pendant of UKIP.

Which countries would those be then, and which Party's do you refer to?

Edited June 30, 2014 by keithisco

[Space Commander Travis]

Well, given that only 48% went to vote we will never know... except that it does not seem to be important to them whether national state or European Federation to the other 52%.

Ah, so once again, a non-vote is a vote for the status quo? It's amazing how often people manage to convince themselves of this. perhaps it could be turned round to ,look at it the other way; a non-vote for the European Parliament is a vote not in favour of the EU.?

[questionmark]

Which countries would those be then, and which Party's do you refer to?

Lets see, off the bat:

Austria Freiheitliche Partei, Bundniss Zukunf Oestereich

Belgium Flams Belang, Lijst Djedecker

Bulgaria Communists Union, NFSB, Attack

Britain UKIP, BNP

Croatia Croatian Party of Rights

Czech Republic ODS

Cyprus New International Left

Denmark People's Movement against the EU

Estonia Independence Party, Center Party

Finnland Finns Party, Communist Party of Finland, Workers Party of Finland

France Front National, Gaullist Debut Party, Popular Republican Union

Germany AfD

Greece Communist party, Golden Dawn

Hungary Jobbik

Ireland Sinn Fein, United Left Alliance

Italy 5 Stelle

Latvia National Alliance

Lithuania Order and Justice

Malta Libertas Malta

Netherlands PVV

Poland Congress of the New Right, Ruch Narodovy

Portugal National renovator party

Romania Greater Romania Party

Slovakia Slovak National Party

Slovenia National Party

Spain Candidatura d'Unitat Popular,

Sweden Swedish Democrats, Left Party of Sweden, IND/DEM Group

And that without attempt to list them all.

Ah, so once again, a non-vote is a vote for the status quo? It's amazing how often people manage to convince themselves of this. perhaps it could be turned round to ,look at it the other way; a non-vote for the European Parliament is a vote not in favour of the EU.?

No vote is no vote. And the only reason I can think of for not voting is that you either are incapacitated or you could not be arsed, therefore have no opinion.

[keithisco]

Lets see, off the bat:

Austria Freiheitliche Partei, Bundniss Zukunf Oestereich

Belgium Flams Belang, Lijst Djedecker

Bulgaria Communists Union, NFSB, Attack

Britain UKIP, BNP

Croatia Croatian Party of Rights

Czech Republic ODS

Cyprus New International Left

Denmark People's Movement against the EU

Estonia Independence Party, Center Party

Finnland Finns Party, Communist Party of Finland, Workers Party of Finland

France Front National, Gaullist Debut Party, Popular Republican Union

Germany AfD

Greece Communist party, Golden Dawn

Hungary Jobbik

Ireland Sinn Fein, United Left Alliance

Italy 5 Stelle

Latvia National Alliance

Lithuania Order and Justice

Malta Libertas Malta

Netherlands PVV

Poland Congress of the New Right, Ruch Narodovy

Portugal National renovator party

Romania Greater Romania Party

Slovakia Slovak National Party

Slovenia National Party

Spain Candidatura d'Unitat Popular,

Sweden Swedish Democrats, Left Party of Sweden, IND/DEM Group

And that without attempt to list them all.

No vote is no vote. And the only reason I can think of for not voting is that you either are incapacitated or you could not be arsed, therefore have no opinion.

It is really disingenuous to include ANY far - right, neo Nazi Party as being the equivalent of UKIP. You really need to do better than that... Communist Parties,Golden Dawn!!! That was meant as a purely sarcastic post... wasn't it?? Half of these Party's do not even exist anymore - Libertas Malta?

Edited June 30, 2014 by keithisco

[questionmark]

It is really disingenuous to include ANY far - right, neo Nazi Party as being the equivalent of UKIP. You really need to do better than that... Communist Parties,Golden Dawn!!! That was meant as a purely sarcastic post... wasn't it??

No, it is the national version of the Bye Bye Europe Party alleging national interests, whether they call themselves right or left is quite irrelevant.

[keithisco]

No, it is the national version of the Bye Bye Europe Party alleging national interests, whether they call themselves right or left is quite irrelevant.

It is absolutely NOT irrelevant. Not ALL anti EU are either connected with either unreformed Communists, nor Nazi affiliates. Wanting to reform the EU does not require belief in the additional "baggage" that association with such extremism requires.

That is why UKIP is so different. It is NOT aligned with extremism, but with what is good for the UK and the Commonwealth.

[questionmark]

It is absolutely NOT irrelevant. Not ALL anti EU are either connected with either unreformed Communists, nor Nazi affiliates. Wanting to reform the EU does not require belief in the additional "baggage" that association with such extremism requires.

That is why UKIP is so different. It is NOT aligned with extremism, but with what is good for the UK and the Commonwealth.

I said Pendant, not Dependency. That means equivalent in its aims. And most of those parties are not extremists either having been part of a national government (in the case of the Czech Republic even put forward the president, Vaclav Claus) or are a strong opposition.

In fact, many European far right parties are forging a pan-European alliance and therefore not against the EU. Just against a liberal EU.

[keithisco]

I said Pendant, not Dependency. That means equivalent in its aims. And most of those parties are not extremists either having been part of a national government (in the case of the Czech Republic even put forward the president, Vaclav Claus) or are a strong opposition.

In fact, many European far right parties are forging a pan-European alliance and therefore not against the EU. Just against a liberal EU.

SOME far right European Party's are trying to form an alliance. By their very nature they are National Socialists with an inherent distrust of all things trans - National.

Pendant has no real meaning in English - but I get your drift. These Far Right, National Socialists have no comparison with UKIP.

Edited June 30, 2014 by keithisco

[stevewinn]

Stirling will not be any more a safe harbour than the Euro if and when a new crisis arises. The days of people carrying stirling as an international safe currency went back in the 1980's (coincident with the funny economics of the time). The UK and Stirling are far more exposed to the vagaries of the markets than almost any other currency on earth.

Br Cornelius

As Keith said the worlds fourth largest trading currency 3rd most held reverse currency and backer of the International monetary fund (IMF) It wasn't so long ago Questionmark was rejoicing that the pound sterling was falling against the Euro, for many weeks he'd post up dates such as £1 gets you €1.10 gradually falling to a low of €0.80 against the £pound and questionmark was over the moon you could hardly contain him. I told him at the time, it would be short lived - the pound sterling would rise again, well today we see that the pound sterling as indeed risen £1.00 - €1.24 Euro.

The pound sterling is also the backer of the British economy which is the fastest growing economy in the G7. IMF - Britain's economy to grow by 2.9% this year. growth in the Euro 1.2%. How come the United Kingdom is out performing the Euro zone and everyone in it?. and were not even eurozone members. so much for the pound sterling being a currency on the wane. a currency with a track record that dates back centuries not one decade and has served us well through good times and bad including world wars. The €uro is propped up by an amalgamation of countries. yet the pound sterling is currency of a single country - what the EU try to achieve as a collective we achieve alone.

None of the above would've been possible if we'd have joined the Euro. ditching the pound sterling, its the one good thing Gordon Brown done as Chancellor. rejecting the opportunity to join the Euro. even though the Europhiles at the time including academics and big business led by the gay chargers the Liberal Democrats, who said if we don't join the Euro currency we'd lose 6 million jobs and be left behind when it comes to trade. now in the fullness of time we know exactly what would have happened if we'd have joined the Euro our economy would have been in crisis like never witnessed before, at one stage in the recession we was in a worse state that Greece. it was thanks to the pound sterling and the ability to have full fiscal control which allowed us to adjust our fiscal policy to match our economic situation. we certainly did dodge a bullet. i'll end with the quote from the Lib Dem leader. Nick Clegg, former member of the European Parliament, and proponent of Britain joining the euro - He conceded that "with the benefit of hindsight... it would've been huge, huge error" for Britain to have joined the single currency"

So much for a weak Pound sterling currency. £

[Guest]

It is absolutely NOT irrelevant. Not ALL anti EU are either connected with either unreformed Communists, nor Nazi affiliates. Wanting to reform the EU does not require belief in the additional "baggage" that association with such extremism requires.

That is why UKIP is so different. It is NOT aligned with extremism, but with what is good for the UK and the Commonwealth.

Now who's been naive. You should really take a look at their support base, not all are nasty - but a sizable chunk really are.

Br Cornelius

[Guest]

Lets just say steve, quantitative easing is a path to disaster paved with good intentions. The day of reckoning for Stirling is fast approaching. Its only the shocking state of the world economy outside of Asia which makes it look anything other than a real basket case. GDP growth is easy to manufacture when you can fiddle the books - but it aint real growth thats happening outside of London and even in London its largely a stock market fuelled fantasy.

Dream on.

Br Cornelius

[keithisco]

I hold my hands up unreservedly.... I was all for the UK to become a Eurozone member for purely selfish reasons - it would have made my life a lot easier. On reflection, and with a huge dose of insight, it would clearly have been a major mistake for the UK. Policy at the ECB is determined by Germany, it would have stifled the UK's recovery and the UK would have become subservient to German wishes.

I think it is acceptable to be able to change one's viewpoint in the light of changing circumstances. To this end I have incorporated my Business ventures in Gibraltar, I pay Corporation Tax to Gibraltar, personal tax in Spain.

For me, it is the perfect solution - I support Spain with my Personal Taxes, but vastly support the UK with my Corporation Taxes. In a very small way, I improve the UK Balance of Trade, and you know what, I am proud to do so.

[keithisco]

Now who's been naive. You should really take a look at their support base, not all are nasty - but a sizable chunk really are.

Br Cornelius

Rubbish - just ranting on your behalf because you cannot support your statement with factual data.

[Guest]

Rubbish - just ranting on your behalf because you cannot support your statement with factual data.

They have had numerous incidents of supporters expressing racist and homophobic opinions on their websites - and that is only those who bother to post. Its not rubbish Keith its documented reality. I think Farage isn't as bad as his supporters but thats small conciliation if they get into power.

Br Cornelius

[keithisco]

Lets just say steve, quantitative easing is a path to disaster paved with good intentions. The day of reckoning for Stirling is fast approaching. Its only the shocking state of the world economy outside of Asia which makes it look anything other than a real basket case. GDP growth is easy to manufacture when you can fiddle the books - but it aint real growth thats happening outside of London and even in London its largely a stock market fuelled fantasy.

Dream on.

Br Cornelius

You really are Naïve when it comes to what the Square Mile actually does... It is NOT all stock market speculation... the vast majority of all transactions are investments in Industrial and Technological innovation (look at the Sabre Engine), it is Lloyds Insurance, it is investment in SME's.