Merkel still backs Juncker...

[keithisco]

I don't expect average working people to seek election to the European parliament, but one of the people who did get elected had no significant income or resources. A bit of a character our Ming the Merciless.

That deposit is small beer for anyone who can get enough support to stand any chance of running.

Br Cornelius

...and Anti - Eu!

[keithisco]

It certainly does not. In the UK, with a return of 36%, that means that of roughly 40m eligible voters 14m actually bothered to vote. It sounds very fishy to me that if the 26m remaining actually wanted to change something they could not come up with enough money to get themselves known, organize themselves and create a voting platform by forfeiting a few beers. In Germany all they have to do is create a party and the tax payer pays for the campaign based on the returns and so on, and so on.

actually 34,19% voted. Not the worst turnout. 1999 was marginally better. To make the somewhat askance idea that the UK electorate preferred to quaff beer than to vote borders on the usual profiling of a nation that I only expect from Greece.

Remember, the UK is NOT Germany, and what you are saying does not make any sense - it is in fact completely wrong. I have business interests there, and I can tell you that such support is reserved for German specific elections.

Such nonsense from you is quite unprecedented...

[questionmark]

in related news:

European countries have warned David Cameron that his threats about the British people voting to leave an unreformed EU may backfire, undermining the Prime Minister’s hopes of winning major concessions.

Diplomats from countries sympathetic to Britain have told the Foreign Office there will be a limit to sweeteners the Prime Minister can win before putting his new deal to voters in a referendum promised for 2017.

The warnings emerged after the Prime Minister failed to block the appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker as President of the European Commission. Mr Cameron believes Mr Juncker will stand in the way of reform.

Read more

[Harry_Dresden]

Uh, sorry? According to me it didn't happen? What didn't happen? And really, come on now, 13% turnout doesn't exactly shout of overwhelming enthusiasm, does it now.

So according to you, peace and prosperity through out Europe didn't happen...lol

But to answer your silly claim...the majority of EU citizens don't care for EU elections cause unlike Cameron and his supporters, they know where the real power resides and that is I national elections. That doesn't mean that they don't appreciate what the European project has delivered... peace and prosperity for all. Why don't we see mass riots and demonstrations through-out Europe and in the UK in particular if what you say about voter apathy in EU elections equates to a failed federation?

...and to reinforce the point...Cameron is a moron for having little to no understanding for the EU commissioners role and even weaker for not having the balls to take on Merkel directly... and to make matters worse, he even rang to congratulate, Juncker... Can you believe it? So after all is said and done the "terrible and monstrous" EU, is still important to the Euro-sceptical Tories... maybe you should ask why Cameron isn't pulling the UK out of the EU if voter participation is the bench mark for EU success, instead of crawling up to Junker.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Harry_Dresden

[Space Commander Travis]

So according to you, peace and prosperity through out Europe didn't happen...lol

But to answer your silly claim...the majority of EU citizens don't care for EU elections cause unlike Cameron and his supporters, they know where the real power resides and that is I national elections. That doesn't mean that they don't appreciate what the European project has delivered... peace and prosperity for all. Why don't we see mass riots and demonstrations through-out Europe and in the UK in particular if what you say about voter apathy in EU elections equates to a failed federation?

...and to reinforce the point...Cameron is a moron for having little to no understanding for the EU commissioners role and even weaker for not having the balls to take on Merkel directly... and to make matters worse, he even rang to congratulate, Juncker... Can you believe it? So after all is said and done the "terrible and monstrous" EU, is still important to the Euro-sceptical Tories... maybe you should ask why Cameron isn't pulling the UK out of the EU if voter participation is the bench mark for EU success, instead of crawling up to Junker.

So this massive turnout was a vote of thanks for the peace & Prosperity that the Eu has brought? Where'd you get that from? Surely by that argument, the former Warsaw Pact countries'd have a near-universal turnout, since they'd be so grateful to the EU for preserving peace & Prosperity and ending the cold War?

And riots and demonstrations? There were quite a few in Greece and Portugal and those countries that the EU coerced into doing what they insisted in order to keep the Euro afloat.

"Terrible and monstrous"? Rhetorical over-exaggeration or what?

[keithisco]

So according to you, peace and prosperity through out Europe didn't happen...lol

But to answer your silly claim...the majority of EU citizens don't care for EU elections cause unlike Cameron and his supporters, they know where the real power resides and that is I national elections. That doesn't mean that they don't appreciate what the European project has delivered... peace and prosperity for all. Why don't we see mass riots and demonstrations through-out Europe and in the UK in particular if what you say about voter apathy in EU elections equates to a failed federation?

...and to reinforce the point...Cameron is a moron for having little to no understanding for the EU commissioners role and even weaker for not having the balls to take on Merkel directly... and to make matters worse, he even rang to congratulate, Juncker... Can you believe it? So after all is said and done the "terrible and monstrous" EU, is still important to the Euro-sceptical Tories... maybe you should ask why Cameron isn't pulling the UK out of the EU if voter participation is the bench mark for EU success, instead of crawling up to Junker.

Emphasis mine: and why is that? Is it because the EU does not pass laws that affect every individual in the Union?

[Harry_Dresden]

So this massive turnout was a vote of thanks for the peace & Prosperity that the Eu has brought? Where'd you get that from? Surely by that argument, the former Warsaw Pact countries'd have a near-universal turnout, since they'd be so grateful to the EU for preserving peace & Prosperity and ending the cold War?

Again, what does voter turn-out for a legislature body have to do with national elections? Are you somehow implying that the EU courts and regulations department, is worthy of the same attention as say a national election in the UK? Are you so far gone in your thinking of what the EU is that reason is being replaced by paranoia? As far as the Warsaw pact countries...they seem to have fallen over back-wards looking for a invite, so i guess they'd know what's better. Look at what is happening in Ukraine. The nation is tearing itself apart trying to join to the Euro club in case you haven't noticed, maybe that it has something to do with the fact that NO EU nation has gone to war with another for over 50 years.

And riots and demonstrations? There were quite a few in Greece and Portugal and those countries that the EU coerced into doing what they insisted in order to keep the Euro afloat.

"Terrible and monstrous"? Rhetorical over-exaggeration or what?

...as far as i know, no one is starving cause of the EU OR no nation feels less British, Swedish, Greek, Italian, Dutch etc etc cause of the EU...on the contrary, the free market is providing jobs and opportunities. Euro courts and laws are providing additional protection to it's Euro-wide citizens. No exaggeration i promise!

And as if the EU was to blame for the Greeks and the Portuguese mishandling their economies. The EU has given these PIGS a way out and a future with their hard medicine. After all the austerity measures and hardships that Greece and Portugal went through, not ONE political part, advocating leaving the EU has won any significant parliamentary power. Of course in the UK, without ANY hardship the opposite is true.

What does that tell you?

Edited July 1, 2014 by Harry_Dresden

[Harry_Dresden]

Emphasis mine: and why is that? Is it because the EU does not pass laws that affect every individual in the Union?

Yes they do pass laws that effect the entire EU. So? are they picking on the British unfairly that has you all upset?

So you think that Cameron should alienate the UK, economically, socially and politically all for the sake of some cross Atlantic pipe dream that the Americans who have told Westminster, already, in no uncertain terms that it should stick to the EU. Whats to say that America wont impose its own laws and regulations on a smaller Britain. You need to get with the program. Britain is too small to dream of being a world power on her own. Europe is the only way that Britain will have a world voice and if you or the rest of the league of empire builders think differently then by all means lobby Cameron into a free trade deal with the EU and America and lets see how far that gets the UK in 20 years.

[Guest]

After all the austerity measures and hardships that Greece and Portugal went through, not ONE political part, advocating leaving the EU has won any significant parliamentary power.

This is significant and true of Ireland also. The people are wise enough to understand that the reasons for their problems are their own national governments and that their best salvation from domestic mismanagement is within the EU. Greece, Portugal, Italy and Ireland all have dysfunctional national political systems and their citizens understand that they would be in much worse states if they were not in the EU. I have said it many times before but these countries have oscillated between dictatorship and democracy for most of the last 100years before membership. None of them want to return to a dictatorship and so they understand the stability of Europe and the consequences of loss of democracy would be to leave the EU.

Only when you have suffered the consequences of domestic mismanagement and felt the pain do you look for an alternative - the UK hasn't yet learnt that lesson - prefering to indulge in the blame game with the EU as the cause of all their domestic ills.

Br Cornelius

[Space Commander Travis]

Again, what does voter turn-out for a legislature body have to do with national elections? Are you somehow implying that the EU courts and regulations department, is worthy of the same attention as say a national election in the UK? Are you so far gone in your thinking of what the EU is that reason is being replaced by paranoia? As far as the Warsaw pact countries...they seem to have fallen over back-wards looking for a invite, so i guess they'd know what's better. Look at what is happening in Ukraine. The nation is tearing itself apart trying to join to the Euro club in case you haven't noticed, maybe that it has something to do with the fact that NO EU nation has gone to war with another for over 50 years.

...as far as i know, no one is starving cause of the EU OR no nation feels less British, Swedish, Greek, Italian, Dutch etc etc cause of the EU...on the contrary, the free market is providing jobs and opportunities. Euro courts and laws are providing additional protection to it's Euro-wide citizens. No exaggeration i promise!

And as if the EU was to blame for the Greeks and the Portuguese mishandling their economies. The EU has given these PIGS a way out and a future with their hard medicine. After all the austerity measures and hardships that Greece and Portugal went through, not ONE political part, advocating leaving the EU has won any significant parliamentary power. Of course in the UK, without ANY hardship the opposite is true.

What does that tell you?

I don't know where you get all this that you seem to believe I think. I don't really know what you are trying to say. Are you trying to say that the EU Courts & Regulations Department (whatever that is) isn't as important as national goverments, and that explains the low turnout, but it also shows at the same time that the EU (and presumably its Courts & Regulations department) is so wildly popular?

And look at what's happening in Ukraine? That's really an encouraging sign? A coup engineered by the CIA that has considerable neo-nazi influence? You really believe it was just a spontaneous uprising by the People because they so desperately wanted closer ties with Europe?

[Guest]

The best explanation for the low turn out is complacency. No one is really that bothered, for or against, the EU. Most people aren't that bothered about Politics at any level.

I personally think thats a huge mistake as neglecting your democratic responsibility as a citizen almost always leads to a clique who don't represent you taking control. that never ends well for a country or a federation - and I think we can all look to the USA to see what a quasi-fascistic state you end up with when people cease to care about politics in general.

Br Cornelius

[Space Commander Travis]

Ah, but if the choice is, as it is in the Uk,

• Lab;
  
• Con;
  
• lib dem;
  
• Ukip;
  
• various fringe parties including the remaining survivors of the BNP;
  
• and in Scotland, of course, SNP;
  

how would voting for any of them make the slightest difference to anything? (except if one is fanatical for Scottish independence, but leaving single-issue policies like that aside*) It's one's Democratic Responsibility as a Citizen to obediently give their endorsement to one or the other gang of career politicians everyone few years, is it? You're not going to say "if you don't like what's on offer, why dont' you start your own party then?", are you? That really is a cop-out answer by those who still persuade themselves that whichever gang of politicians you vote for makes the slightest difference.

* which I suppose would also apply to Ukip

[Harry_Dresden]

I don't know where you get all this that you seem to believe I think. I don't really know what you are trying to say. Are you trying to say that the EU Courts & Regulations Department (whatever that is) isn't as important as national goverments, and that explains the low turnout, but it also shows at the same time that the EU (and presumably its Courts & Regulations department) is so wildly popular?

And look at what's happening in Ukraine? That's really an encouraging sign? A coup engineered by the CIA that has considerable neo-nazi influence? You really believe it was just a spontaneous uprising by the People because they so desperately wanted closer ties with Europe?

I've been clear and if there is any confusion it's on your behalf.

That's exactly what I'm saying... the Euro parliament works under the direction of the national governments. Again, who's to say why there is such a low turn out for European parliamentary elections. Maybe they view the EU with distrust... maybe they're content and comfortable with the laws being made in Brussels or just maybe they don't give a stuff cause they're able to see the big picture unlike yourself. Run a poll and let me know which of the three reasons for a possible low turn out is responsible for upsetting u so...

[Guest]

Ah, but if the choice is, as it is in the Uk,

• Lab;
  
• Con;
  
• lib dem;
  
• Ukip;
  
• various fringe parties including the remaining survivors of the BNP;
  
• and in Scotland, of course, SNP;
  

how would voting for any of them make the slightest difference to anything? (except if one is fanatical for Scottish independence, but leaving single-issue policies like that aside*) It's one's Democratic Responsibility as a Citizen to obediently give their endorsement to one or the other gang of career politicians everyone few years, is it? You're not going to say "if you don't like what's on offer, why dont' you start your own party then?", are you? That really is a cop-out answer by those who still persuade themselves that whichever gang of politicians you vote for makes the slightest difference.

* which I suppose would also apply to Ukip

A pathway to better is to get rid of the first past the post system, which means voting Lib Dem as a strategic first step. But I believe the EU electrion uses PR so its not applicable to that.

Br Cornelius

[Space Commander Travis]

I've been clear and if there is any confusion it's on your behalf.

That's exactly what I'm saying... the Euro parliament works under the direction of the national governments. Again, who's to say why there is such a low turn out for European parliamentary elections. Maybe they view the EU with distrust... maybe they're content and comfortable with the laws being made in Brussels or just maybe they don't give a stuff cause they're able to see the big picture unlike yourself. Run a poll and let me know which of the three reasons for a possible low turn out is responsible for upsetting u so...

I think i see the confusion here. You appear to believe I'm obsessed about the EU and probably have a poster of Nigel Farage above the fridge. Well, no, I distrust all political parties and forms of government, and that includes the European government just as much as national governments. The reason I dustrust the European government is not so much because of all the stuff about "EU Regulations" you get int he Daily Mail, much of which is fictitious, it's because of their increasing drive towards centralisation and their desire to be a superpower (hence all the business in Ukraine, which is largely about the EU's ambitions to become a military power). In that regard, I distrust them as much as I do the US Government.

[keithisco]

Yes they do pass laws that effect the entire EU. So? are they picking on the British unfairly that has you all upset?

So you think that Cameron should alienate the UK, economically, socially and politically all for the sake of some cross Atlantic pipe dream that the Americans who have told Westminster, already, in no uncertain terms that it should stick to the EU. Whats to say that America wont impose its own laws and regulations on a smaller Britain. You need to get with the program. Britain is too small to dream of being a world power on her own. Europe is the only way that Britain will have a world voice and if you or the rest of the league of empire builders think differently then by all means lobby Cameron into a free trade deal with the EU and America and lets see how far that gets the UK in 20 years.

Emphasis mine: The Financial Transaction Tax is specifically aimed at the UK, to undermine its Financial prestige in the World. To make it more expensive for the world to Trade with the Square Mile.

It would behove you to be somewhat less acerbic in your replies, people might take your posts a bit more seriously without the name - slinging.

[Frank Merton]

Emphasis mine: The Financial Transaction Tax is specifically aimed at the UK, to undermine its Financial prestige in the World. To make it more expensive for the world to Trade with the Square Mile.

It would behove you to be somewhat less acerbic in your replies, people might take your posts a bit more seriously without the name - slinging.

Probably being done at the behest of Wall Street and Tokyo.

[questionmark]

Emphasis mine: The Financial Transaction Tax is specifically aimed at the UK, to undermine its Financial prestige in the World. To make it more expensive for the world to Trade with the Square Mile.

It would behove you to be somewhat less acerbic in your replies, people might take your posts a bit more seriously without the name - slinging.

That is boolcrappy, even if Frankfurt and Paris are not as big, they will have to pay that tax too.

[Guest]

Its to address the very real issue of unproductive high speed trading - or in other world to stop the computers gambling and manipulating the stock prices.

This is one of the main issues faces Stock Markets at the moment - how to get them back to producing real value in the way they were intended - rather than rewarding speculative gambling.

Br Cornelius

[keithisco]

That is boolcrappy, even if Frankfurt and Paris are not as big, they will have to pay that tax too.

Frankfurt and Paris handle nowhere near the same volume of trade even combined. So tell me, just what is the purpose of the tax - who is going to benefit? London neither needs this tax, nor wants it. I don't want to be charged a tax on top of the usual charges. I can only think that the point of it is to make it less attractive to Trade in Europe (and particularly London)

[questionmark]

Its to address the very real issue of unproductive high speed trading - or in other world to stop the computers gambling and manipulating the stock prices.

This is one of the main issues faces Stock Markets at the moment - how to get them back to producing real value in the way they were intended - rather than rewarding speculative gambling.

Br Cornelius

Correct, after that they should stop empty trades and normal people should have a chance at the stock exchange again (now you might as well go to Montecarlo to the Casino to make some investments).

[keithisco]

Its to address the very real issue of unproductive high speed trading - or in other world to stop the computers gambling and manipulating the stock prices.

This is one of the main issues faces Stock Markets at the moment - how to get them back to producing real value in the way they were intended - rather than rewarding speculative gambling.

Br Cornelius

...and that I would agree with, completely. However it targets all Financial Transactions equally and is not selective.

[questionmark]

Frankfurt and Paris handle nowhere near the same volume of trade even combined. So tell me, just what is the purpose of the tax - who is going to benefit? London neither needs this tax, nor wants it. I don't want to be charged a tax on top of the usual charges. I can only think that the point of it is to make it less attractive to Trade in Europe (and particularly London)

So? Do you hear the Germans scream that they are being targeted unfairly because they have to stem the biggest carbon reduction? Or the French because they loose the most because the farm subsidies are being cut back?

Britain must come to grips with the fact that they cannot pick the cherries. Its either the whole cake or it is nothing.

[Guest]

...and that I would agree with, completely. However it targets all Financial Transactions equally and is not selective.

If you are making financial transaction of real value it represents a tiny fraction of the value of the transaction - it is the high speed speculative trades which would be disproportionately effected. the Net effect would be overwhelmingly positive for the stock markets. The fact that the UK blocked it tells you a lot about what is really happening in the square mile.

Br Cornelius

[keithisco]

If you are making financial transaction of real value it represents a tiny fraction of the value of the transaction - it is the high speed speculative trades which would be disproportionately effected. the Net effect would be overwhelmingly positive for the stock markets. The fact that the UK blocked it tells you a lot about what is really happening in the square mile.

Br Cornelius

The UK has not blocked it - they were overruled by the EU Court because it is not yet in effect and the UK wanted it to be selective against the micro-second trading. I still don't see why I should pay 1,5% on every other transaction however, especially when the UK is not asking for this?