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DeWitz

Islamic State in the Levant Advances

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Br Cornelius

That was not an opening for you count the ways in which you hate people that are different from yourself. You are quite adept at interjecting your distain in the majority of your posts. I have to wonder what other groups you are bigoted towards...which goes totally against the liberal handbook of overall acceptance. In that way you are much more of a conservative than I.

You only think I'm a conservative because of my opinion on global warming. You know what they say about people who make assumptions without having all of the facts.

Everything you have ever said says you are a conservative - not just your opinion on Global warming. Just as I am certain you would place me in the box "Liberal" and find it rather distasteful. I think you have strong principles about traditional values, which as I say I can respect, but where it takes you on many things I have to disagree with.

Br Cornelius

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Michelle

Everything you have ever said says you are a conservative - not just your opinion on Global warming. Just as I am certain you would place me in the box "Liberal" and find it rather distasteful. I think you have strong principles about traditional values, which as I say I can respect, but where it takes you on many things I have to disagree with.

Br Cornelius

So conservatives are now all pro equal rights, pro gay marriage and pro choice? Boy, they've really gotten their act together recently.

I don't find liberals distasteful at all. What I do find distasteful is people who talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

Edited by Michelle

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Br Cornelius

So conservatives are now all pro equal rights, pro gay marriage and pro choice? Boy, they've really gotten their act together recently.

I don't find liberals distasteful at all. What I do find distasteful is people who talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

And who would that be Michelle ?

Br Cornelius

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Space Commander Travis

has very much of this discussion got very much to do with the Islamic State in the Levant?

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Br Cornelius

Only the importance of deceit in getting us to this place - otherwise its a distraction.

I have a strong feeling that the current administration is letting this brew, even feeding it - to further some greater objective of intervention - ie funding for radicals in Syria. The Syrian adventure was knocked back - but it never really went away for those who wanted to topple Assad.

However those lies must be challenged whenever they rear their ugly head again.

Br Cornelius

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Michelle

And who would that be Michelle ?

Br Cornelius

You for one. See, I don't judge groups...I take people on an individual basis. One of liberals claim to fame is being all inclusive and accepting of other religions, sexual orientations, ethnicities,...whatever...unless you are Republicans or Christians.

Oh Lord, now you'll call me a Christian as if it's an insult too.

has very much of this discussion got very much to do with the Islamic State in the Levant?

Just having, a rather polite I might add, clearing of the air. I've said all I intend to, because I know Br C always gets the last word. :P

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seeder

Heres an MAP (with new names) of ISIS and their plans to take over

The ISIS map of the world: Militants outline chilling five-year plan for global domination as they declare formation of caliphate - and change their name to the Islamic State

Sunni militants have announced formation of Islamic state in Middle East

They demand Muslims around the world swear allegiance to the caliphate

Claim leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi now has authority over all Muslims

Group has also now changed its name from ISIS to just the Islamic State

Announcement described as 'most significant development in international jihadism since 9/11'.

http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz368w39400

article-2674736-1F46221200000578-100_634x381.jpg

.

Edited by seeder

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Br Cornelius

Thats what religious delusion can do for you. Do they imagine that all of those countries are going to simply roll over and welcoming this murderous band of thugs in with open arms.

There's a bigger picture here and its not what it seems.

Br Cornelius

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RavenHawk

What it is Raven is that you can't change definitions to suit your personal opinions - its really simple. If you change the language you retreat into your own bubble of unreality. I have pointed this out to you many times before. Its simply not true to say that Monarchy/feudalism fits any accepted definition of socialism. Since you can't concede the point then we can't have a discussion using any language I am familiar with.

There is nothing to concede because it isn’t wrong. I’ve presented a different way to look at it and I explained why. You can’t comprehend that. I’m not the one doing the retreating and there is nothing for you to point out. Until you are able to answer that one question, we are at an impasse.

But see you've dragged me in again - more fool me.

You’ve dragged yourself because you can’t let it go. It drives you crazy.

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redhen

has very much of this discussion got very much to do with the Islamic State in the Levant?

Don't know, haven't read all the accusatory posts here. But since you've mentioned the new Islamic State, my first thought is good! It means the U.S. will now have a country to finally declare war on.

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Space Commander Travis

Heres an MAP (with new names) of ISIS and their plans to take over

The ISIS map of the world: Militants outline chilling five-year plan for global domination as they declare formation of caliphate - and change their name to the Islamic State

Sunni militants have announced formation of Islamic state in Middle East

They demand Muslims around the world swear allegiance to the caliphate

Claim leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi now has authority over all Muslims

Group has also now changed its name from ISIS to just the Islamic State

Announcement described as 'most significant development in international jihadism since 9/11'.

http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz368w39400

article-2674736-1F46221200000578-100_634x381.jpg

.

Oh come on, Orobpa, Qoqzaz and the Land of Alkinana? is that from the people who brought us Narnia and Azkaban?
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Br Cornelius

All these Jihadist one day getting funding from the West to topple Dictators and the next declaring war on the West. At best this represents a failure of intelligence - at worse something far more sinister. My opinion is that someone is itching for a fight and I wouldn't place my money on it been just the Muslims.

To me this looks bad - as bad as it gets - someone wants to start the big one.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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RavenHawk

To me this looks bad - as bad as it gets - someone wants to start the big one.

Oh, so it's Bush's fault.

My opinion is that someone is itching for a fight and I wouldn't place my money on it been just the Muslims.

So the Muslims are too innocent to do something like this all on their own and be motivated by their dogma. It must be those neocons that put them up to it.

Edited by RavenHawk

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Yamato

Oh, so it's Bush's fault.

So the Muslims are too innocent to do something like this all on their own and be motivated by their dogma. It must be those neocons that put them up to it.

Neocons are simple to identify as a group; they're defined by interventionist foreign policy. Statism over foreign interests.

"The Muslims" as a group are far more variable and complicated.

But it's easy to look at the laundry list of excuses and justifications for more of the same in the world. I don't think that most people are truly evil so I have to believe they acquiesce to ideas like yours out of fear. Because we're so scared of a unified Muslim front, keeping them fighting amongst themselves is the best containment available (and in theory we don't have to do the fighting ourselves - Bonus!)

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Br Cornelius

It all depends on who propaganda you choose to believe.

Br Cornelius

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DeWitz

It sounds like 'the Islamic State' operates on the same hope-filled frequency as, "If you build it, they will come." This seems more like, "If we announce it, they will follow." However, isn't the old infantry creed, "You don't own it 'til you walk on it?" Then there's that something about, "Don't count your chickens. . ."

Edited by DeWitz
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Space Commander Travis

Have the Media ever stopped to think what a compliment they're paying this bunch, with all their "chilling visions" of the "Islamic state" that is absolutely inescapable, and how this crowd is an unstoppable army that will inevitably take over the civilized world. They may have been able to take over much of Iraq because of the ineptitude of the Iraq government and the unwillingness of the army to fight, but all this nonsense about "chilling five-year plans for global domination" and "Sunni militants have announced formation of Islamic state in Middle East" is really doing just what they want, isn't it. You'd think from that story that because "Sunni militants have announced formation of Islamic state in Middle East" then it's now law and all these countries are now officially renamed as Sham, Magreb and The Land of Habasha and all the rest of it, doesn't it.

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RavenHawk

They'd succeeded in killing quite a few thousand Iraqis. What were they supposed to do? To stop Saddam being "defiant"? What does "defiant" mean? Still being in power?

I’m busy trying to spend ¼ million and got distracted with another train of thought here. I guess it’s Monday.

About 120,000 but most were identified as combatants and those that were not, were killed by the insurgents (ala ISIS). All the Left lets us focus on is the collateral damage which were few in number but huge in political ammo. We’ll see what happens when Obama is going to have to commit troops and see what the Republicans will do? Turn around is fair play. Iraq is going to turn into a new Vietnam and that is after we had the initiative and gave it up.

They did exactly what was needed. If Saddam remained in power, we would be debating a nuclear Iraq/Iran instead of ISIS marching on Baghdad. Is that defiant enough? Saddam had no fear of the sanctions because once they were lifted, which would have occurred within weeks if the invasion hadn’t happened. Then Saddam would have gone back to business as usual with France and others. But Chirac was playing with fire thinking that Saddam could keep the Shiites and Kurds at bay indefinitely. Now the Sunnis are in the driver’s seat.

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RavenHawk

Is ISIS/ISIL still 'at the gates of Baghdad,'

Yes.

or have they hunkered down on the outskirts or in outlying cities and towns?

It’s not hunkered down, it’s consolidating. I think they are waiting for the right time during Ramadan.

Are they gaining in strength?

Yes.

Is resistance by the Iraqi army and security forces stiffening?

For the Iraqi army, perhaps but ISIS is only positioning units, so this Iraqi stiffening isn’t affecting ISIS. ISIS’ plan seems to be strike quickly and then consolidate for the next strike which will occur at any time.

Has ISIS/ISIL consolidated their forces at border crossings with Syria

What border?

and Jordan?

There’s been something. Jordan has been firing on something.

What's the latest? The mainstream media are largely quiet at present. . .

They are quiet. But the silence speaks volumes. While we celebrate the 4th, we’ll see how quiet other places are.

So, was the US taken by surprise (intelligence and strategy wise) by the 'blitzkrieg' by ISIL/ISIS, or just not engaged? Was someone sleeping at the switch?

I think there was a surprise but not at the intel end as much as the strategic end, because the war was over, over there so assets had been reassigned. Intel is just that. It just gathers the info and analyzes it but it doesn’t make the decisions or acts upon it or do any whistleblowing.

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RavenHawk

The plan was specifically Neocon in origin –

Really? Prior to Bush coming into office, OPLAN 1003 was last revised in 1998. I believe that was a Progressive era?

it had l;ittle to do with the Pentagon and national security.

OPLANs originate in the Pentagon.

War in Iraq was based on a series of carefully placed lies.

The true lie is saying that the reasons for going to war was a lie. Isn’t that right out of Alinski?

You may find that acceptable but most decent people find it repugnant.

Interesting that you use *decent* to describe those that are parrots of the Socialist Party. Most people that were interested in defending this nation saw the importance and necessity of this war. But I wouldn’t put it past you to call the military as indecent.

Lets state this plainly - it has been shown that they fabricated evidence to allow themselves to implement their plan. The evidence they used to justify the war were lies !

If you want plain then nothing was shown to be fabricated. What was shown was what appeared in the revised NIE. Not that there were no WMD but that they cut back on the amounts. Saddam’s programs were transient and as long as he remained in power, they would continue that way. They got carried away with the hype of the war, but the necessity remained. Saddam violated the ceasefire numerous times. The critical thing I have to say against the Bush administration was their rush to war, but they were trying to beat the French from calling to lift sanctions. If the French were able to lift sanctions then we’d be worrying over the nuclear capabilities of Iraq and Iran instead of ISIS.

The evidence was not the basis of the pre-existing plan.

No, the evidence wasn’t the basis of the pre-existing plan. That had nothing to do with it. The plan was just how to go in, it didn’t care about the reasons. You misunderstand the purpose of the OPLAN. They are generic.

That is the NeoCon way.

That’s the Socialist way, to bash others for being a neocon, whether it is true or not. It’s very much the same mentality that ISIS followed with the mass executions.

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Yamato

If people are "bashing" you for being a neocon you're bashing other people for being a socialist. They're just political labels. If you think they're insults when they're used on you, you must be insulting others when you use labels on them.

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and then

Have the Media ever stopped to think what a compliment they're paying this bunch, with all their "chilling visions" of the "Islamic state" that is absolutely inescapable, and how this crowd is an unstoppable army that will inevitably take over the civilized world. They may have been able to take over much of Iraq because of the ineptitude of the Iraq government and the unwillingness of the army to fight, but all this nonsense about "chilling five-year plans for global domination" and "Sunni militants have announced formation of Islamic state in Middle East" is really doing just what they want, isn't it. You'd think from that story that because "Sunni militants have announced formation of Islamic state in Middle East" then it's now law and all these countries are now officially renamed as Sham, Magreb and The Land of Habasha and all the rest of it, doesn't it.

The entire region is in turmoil. Jordan is asking Israel for military help fgs. ISRAEL... I agree that such a reaction over a few thousand irregulars is over the top stupid but Arab armies by and large have a history of ineptitude and cowardice. That isn't meant to be provocative and I'm sure there are examples of fierce fighters in their past but in recent history they have a habit of acting exactly as the Iraqi army did in the north. You're missing the real danger here though. It isn't that 5 or 10 thousand rag tag fighters can actually overthrow the region. It's that they CAN set the entire region on fire and cause a broader war between Sunnis and Shia as well as dragging the IDF in for good measure. Once Israel begins killing Arabs on the battlefield I can almost GUARANTEE that both flavors of Islam will unite in a war against the Jews. You really should read the commentaries on Psalm 83. You might find it interesting. It's as though the writer was relaying info from a modern newspaper. IF this is a fulfillment of that prediction then look for Israel to cleanse the land all around them of enemies that want them dead. And I don't mean just a fight where the UN stops it all in a few days and everyone goes back to their starting positions. This time Israel GROWS. Someone once said the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The same can be said of Islam in general I think - at least as regards Israel.

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Frank Merton

Yes, that is correct but because you don't understand the bigger picture, you've made your own conclusions which are incorrect. What do you think they do all day in the Pentagon? We have plans to attack just about everyone. We develop plans and then file them for future use. Periodically, you take one down and update it. We have plans to attack countries (even allies and neighbors), regions, or situations (http://www.globalsec...y/ops/oplan.htm). We might have a situation that an ISIS like organization might take over Canada, but we still would use those plans to attack. So yes, a plan was formulated long before Bush became President. A President doesn't blindly declare that we're going to go attack someone without first analyzing the intel and plans first. Do you think Obama just came up with a plan to bomb Libya out of the blue?

Strikes me as largely a waste of time and a job-making sinecure for incompetent military officers. When the situation actually arises it will never be as planned.
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Br Cornelius

The entire region is in turmoil. Jordan is asking Israel for military help fgs. ISRAEL... I agree that such a reaction over a few thousand irregulars is over the top stupid but Arab armies by and large have a history of ineptitude and cowardice. That isn't meant to be provocative and I'm sure there are examples of fierce fighters in their past but in recent history they have a habit of acting exactly as the Iraqi army did in the north. You're missing the real danger here though. It isn't that 5 or 10 thousand rag tag fighters can actually overthrow the region. It's that they CAN set the entire region on fire and cause a broader war between Sunnis and Shia as well as dragging the IDF in for good measure. Once Israel begins killing Arabs on the battlefield I can almost GUARANTEE that both flavors of Islam will unite in a war against the Jews. You really should read the commentaries on Psalm 83. You might find it interesting. It's as though the writer was relaying info from a modern newspaper. IF this is a fulfillment of that prediction then look for Israel to cleanse the land all around them of enemies that want them dead. And I don't mean just a fight where the UN stops it all in a few days and everyone goes back to their starting positions. This time Israel GROWS. Someone once said the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The same can be said of Islam in general I think - at least as regards Israel.

Someone's playing with your preprogrammed preconceptions there. Someones leading you by the nose to accept a major conflagration in the Middle East - and your falling right into their trap.

There playing you like a fiddle.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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Cherrypress

If this how these people want to live then so be it. I don't think we should waste one more penny or one more life over there. I was against going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan, I knew it would just be a waste. If they do any terrorism nonsense here and we catch them, try them as criminals. If we don't, we can just fly over and carpet bomb the place and move on. Carpet bombing is what we do best. We don't even have to send a pilot just send a drone.

Er yeah... Bit more complicated then that. No more drugs for that man...

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