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DeWitz

Islamic State in the Levant Advances

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docyabut2

I feel so sorry for the Muslim peoples of the middle east, although they love their religion, all they want is freedom from the dominations of the religion and in these wars that divide them.It seems Egypt is getting there, a democracy where the religious fanatics don`t rule their government any more.Its what American fought for, hopefully the middle east will some day find that freedom. but I think the religious terrorists fanatics will take over Bagdad and they better start evacuating now.

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and then

I feel so sorry for the Muslim peoples of the middle east, although they love their religion, all they want is freedom from the dominations of the religion and in these wars that divide them.It seems Egypt is getting there, a democracy where the religious fanatics don`t rule their government any more.Its what American fought for, hopefully the middle east will some day find that freedom. but I think the religious terrorists fanatics will take over Bagdad and they better start evacuating now.

I feel very badly for the as well but they had YEARS and untold help to prepare for this. I cannot believe they are that cowardly so the only other answer seems to be that they are held in check by their faith in some way. I just don't understand it.

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Almagest

I feel very badly for the as well but they had YEARS and untold help to prepare for this. I cannot believe they are that cowardly so the only other answer seems to be that they are held in check by their faith in some way. I just don't understand it.

Civility is a learned behavior. I'm not even convinced we've finished learning it in the West. In fact the last attempt at Genocide in Europe took place only 20 years ago. We've still got our barbarians, we've just managed to push them to the margins(for now).

However we know that some things work better than others. Due process, the rule of law, democracy, secularism, freedom of speech and association, and constitutionally limited government, to name a few. These things, however, did not fall from the sky fully formed. We in the West have had to struggle every step of the way against the forces of reaction and inertia in order to build these things. The Iraqi people have to do the same, the best we can do is help shield them from the forces which wish to see them fail and die.

One positive side of this story is the Kurdish army has asserted itself and taken Kirkuk from ISIS. They were trained and supplied by the US during the War and it appears ISIS is not messing with them.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

With the way their blood enemies act toward them I wonder that Israel even abides them at all. They should feel lucky. And the Hamas seems to be on the verge of getting a dose of reality after this kidnapping. It's a curious thing to me that the Israelis seem willing for the most part to put up with random rocket fire for years, yet when 3 boys get themselves grabbed while hitch hiking the whole country seems to near come unglued. We may be about to see the Israeli version of an intifada - and the Palestinians best lay low if those boys aren't soon returned.

edited to delete a poor choice of words and to apologize - did not mean to hijack thread.

How would Israel like it if ISIS had to approve who Israel did commerce with? - which would be nobody, BTW

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Civility is a learned behavior. I'm not even convinced we've finished learning it in the West. In fact the last attempt at Genocide in Europe took place only 20 years ago. We've still got our barbarians, we've just managed to push them to the margins(for now).

However we know that some things work better than others. Due process, the rule of law, democracy, secularism, freedom of speech and association, and constitutionally limited government, to name a few. These things, however, did not fall from the sky fully formed. We in the West have had to struggle every step of the way against the forces of reaction and inertia in order to build these things. The Iraqi people have to do the same, the best we can do is help shield them from the forces which wish to see them fail and die.

One positive side of this story is the Kurdish army has asserted itself and taken Kirkuk from ISIS. They were trained and supplied by the US during the War and it appears ISIS is not messing with them.

I agree, the Iraqis do have to do the same to have peace. BUT.... they never will

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Space Commander Travis

Of course, the basic problem is that up until 1920 there was no such nation as Iraq, it was one of those numerous countries that were manufactured after WWI, and that was rarely a very successful policy all round, was it. It's typical of Western politicians to put together mutually antagonistic ethnic groups and tell them "here, you've got a whole new country all to yourselves now, off you go".

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Br Cornelius

I agree, the Iraqis do have to do the same to have peace. BUT.... they never will

i doubt that statement to be true, it smacks of Racism to me.

The progress along the path to civilized administration has been set back by decades, but it is inevitable that any country will evolve its own stable administration given time and experience. The one thing that is guaranteed to halt that process is outside interference.

I would say that part of that process for Iraq will be the formation of a loose Federation or the seperation of the country into three smaller nations.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Almagest

I agree, the Iraqis do have to do the same to have peace. BUT.... they never will

If you looked at 16th Century Europe with it's religious and dynastic wars you'd probably say the same thing.

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RavenHawk

One positive side of this story is the Kurdish army has asserted itself and taken Kirkuk from ISIS. They were trained and supplied by the US during the War and it appears ISIS is not messing with them.

That’s just going to cause more headaches if the Kurds become active. ISIS occupies much of Kurd territory now. If you get the Kurds going, they might want to reclaim *ALL* of their territory which includes parts of Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran. I’m surprised that Turkey hasn’t stepped in yet. Maybe the reason that ISIS isn’t messing with the Kurds is because they are taking their orders from Erdogan?

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Mr.United_Nations

That's just going to cause more headaches if the Kurds become active. ISIS occupies much of Kurd territory now. If you get the Kurds going, they might want to reclaim *ALL* of their territory which includes parts of Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran. I'm surprised that Turkey hasn't stepped in yet. Maybe the reason that ISIS isn't messing with the Kurds is because they are taking their orders from Erdogan?

Turkey is saying that its citizens in Iraq should go to Kurdish controlled areas, Turks don't hate Kurds its they don't recgonise the Kurdish state. ISIS have been attacking Kurds aswell, its not reported that much in Western news

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TheLionsHunter

Iraq was fine under the government of sadam hussein and the sunni vs shi't was under control in a very good way. And guess what usa invaded that place and then problems began and still on today. we can only blame usa because it is the one that created monsters over there. it is just a matter time to see a very large amount of jihadists every where calling for death to every thing usa is.

Edited by TheLionsHunter
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Stellar

Perhaps, instead of spending all this time trying to find someone to blame, we should perhaps start thinking of ways to help.

Borders be damned, oil be damned politics be damned. The fundamental issue is that theres a gang of 12000 animals roaming through cities, brutally murdering people. As if that wasn't enough, they're bragging about it on the internet. The world should be appalled by that, and the world should go in and stop them. Our inaction at the face of these atrocities and others is nearly as damning as the actions being taken by this group. There used to be a time when we went to war for honourable reasons, for ethical reasons. To save lives, at the expense of money. Now we sit back and watch as people are slaughtered at the expense of our humanity. Its time we as a world take a stand against these terrorists, murderers and barbarians. Its time we set aside our petty differences, come together and say enough! Its time we stand up for what is right and put an end to this madness.

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and then

Iraq was fine under the government of sadam hussein and the sunni vs shi't was under control in a very good way. And guess what usa invaded that place and then problems began and still on today. we can only blame usa because it is the one that created monsters over there. it is just a matter time to see a very large amount of jihadists every where calling for death to every thing usa is.

That is a breathtakingly callous statement. But you ARE correct that Saddam had things "under control". The US becoming involved was very much a tragic miscalculation (hopefully) but to imply that the things these jihadis are doing is caused by the US is wrong. These guys are enabled by our actions but the evil is very much native to them and their culture.

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Yamato

The advice of cowards who would try to arrest and try people who had killed 3000 in a terror attack do not interest most Americans much. When an act of war is taken against a nation they have every right to strike back. But I do agree that Iraq was a mistake and that what is happening today is due in large part to that mistake. But not totally. This schism is ancient and will continue regardless what any modern nation tries to do. I think Bush's adventure simply made it possible for the conflict to arise afresh sooner than it might have otherwise. These guys want a global Caliphate - not just to conquer Iraq. They've made it clear they don't care about the "Sikes/Picot" borders. And they've made it equally clear that Israel is next on their list once the Caliphate is mostly consolidated. Everything happening before that attempt is just prelude to the great war that will ensue.

Saddam Hussein didn't attack the US on 9/11. But here you are, weaving your rhetoric together suggesting that he did. Nice work, still pouring the kool aid I see.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

i doubt that statement to be true, it smacks of Racism to me.

Brother, brother, brother! not racism!

As another poster bothered to point out, Iraq literacy is much higher than in the US so if I *am* a racist, then I am a racist against "my own kind".

No, I just think that the mass chaos that exists in Iraq leaves too many factions vying for power and they are not so much interested in the betterment of Iraq in general, just themselves.

The progress along the path to civilized administration has been set back by decades, but it is inevitable that any country will evolve its own stable administration given time and experience. The one thing that is guaranteed to halt that process is outside interference.

I would say that part of that process for Iraq will be the formation of a loose Federation or the seperation of the country into three smaller nations.

Br Cornelius

I agree there. All America wanted to do was set up an American stooge as President and hope it holds together.

Ooops!

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Earl.Of.Trumps

If you looked at 16th Century Europe with it's religious and dynastic wars you'd probably say the same thing.

16th century was before Europe rose to power. Iraq (Mesopotamia) rose to power long long ago, IMO.

It seems like, once oyu lose it, it is lost for a very long time. Rome, Egypt, Greece etc.

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RavenHawk

Iraq was fine under the government of sadam hussein and the sunni vs shi't was under control in a very good way. And guess what usa invaded that place and then problems began and still on today. we can only blame usa because it is the one that created monsters over there. it is just a matter time to see a very large amount of jihadists every where calling for death to every thing usa is.

It wasn’t under control. Saddam was merely biding his time. He might have fooled himself thinking that he was in control but he was a narcissist just like our dictator. No dictator would be able to hold back what was festering below the surface. It would eventually erupt into civil war. But lets say that *he* could for the next 20 or so years. Uday or Qusay would have never been able to. Both were but a shadow of their father. By the time that Qusay had ascended to power and the Shiites rose up, he would have been forced to use nukes against them just as his father gassed the Kurds many years before. That would destabilize the region and if Qusay was overthrown then Shiite terrorists would have nukes. You’re right, it was the US that created the problems over there. If Carter had supported the Shah, we wouldn’t be seeing the problems with Saddam, Bin Laden, Assad, Hezbollah, al Qaeda, Iran, Afghanistan, Taliban, Muslim Brotherhood, or ISIS today. Islam has been calling for the death to everything the USA is since the 1780s.

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Space Commander Travis

It wasn't under control. Saddam was merely biding his time. He might have fooled himself thinking that he was in control but he was a narcissist just like our dictator.

Now comparing Mr. O to Saddam? Way to lend credibility to your argument.

Edited by Admiral Rhubarb

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Space Commander Travis

Anyway, If carter had supported the Shah? You mean intervened after the revolution to depose Khomeini and put the Shah back in power? And how much authority do you think he'd have had? He wouldn't at all have been seen as a puppet of America, would he? no, he'd have had a really strong & stable grip on power. I mean, heck, he'd already supplied him with American equipment that was more modern and sophisticated than any other country they'd supplied outside Europe (and so had the UK), if that couldn't help him hold on to power I really don't think he had much hope. <_< And what would intervention have done for the hostages, the ones being held in the American Embassy, the ones who were rescued by that dazzling display of American military might ..... um.

Edited by Admiral Rhubarb

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and then

Anyway, If carter had supported the Shah? You mean intervened after the revolution to depose Khomeini and put the Shah back in power? And how much authority do you think he'd have had? He wouldn't at all have been seen as a puppet of America, would he? no, he'd have had a really strong & stable grip on power. I mean, heck, he'd already supplied him with American equipment that was more modern and sophisticated than any other country they'd supplied outside Europe (and so had the UK), if that couldn't help him hold on to power I really don't think he had much hope. <_< And what would intervention have done for the hostages, the ones being held in the American Embassy, the ones who were rescued by that dazzling display of American military might ..... um.

That was a sad day for America - a shameful day. The guys who trained for that mission did so about 150 miles from where I was living at the time. They were good men and professional but their government wasn't inclined to fund their efforts, only ask the impossible from them (at that time). But that spectacular failure gave life to a resurgent military. I think the point here is that realpolitik is what is needed. Frankly we shouldn't CARE how they feel as long as they are in no position to impose their will on us.

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Mr.United_Nations

Iraq was fine under the government of sadam hussein and the sunni vs shi't was under control in a very good way. And guess what usa invaded that place and then problems began and still on today. we can only blame usa because it is the one that created monsters over there. it is just a matter time to see a very large amount of jihadists every where calling for death to every thing usa is.

......so gassing thousands of Kurds is fine?

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and then

Really? Tell that to Israel, who most assuredly is dictating to Palestinians who they may have commerce with.

As I recall, the allied powers did the same to the axis in WWII. If the Palestinians want peace then they should stop fighting and negotiate. Not really a difficult concept for an honest person.
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Br Cornelius

As I recall, the allied powers did the same to the axis in WWII. If the Palestinians want peace then they should stop fighting and negotiate. Not really a difficult concept for an honest person.

Maybe the Israeli's should stop stealing their lands as a sign of good faith :w00t:

Br Cornelius

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RavenHawk

Maybe the Israeli's should stop stealing their lands as a sign of good faith :w00t:

It’s not their lands. Don’t go by me, this is what Miko Peled said even though I’ve said that numerous times. They never have declared statehood and all the lands are state owned. And Israel is the only state there. So cry my hands full. The Palestinian has never shown that they are willing to settle peacefully side-by-side with Israel. I think it is in the Palestinian’s court to give a sign of good faith.

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Br Cornelius

It's not their lands. Don't go by me, this is what Miko Peled said even though I've said that numerous times. They never have declared statehood and all the lands are state owned. And Israel is the only state there. So cry my hands full. The Palestinian has never shown that they are willing to settle peacefully side-by-side with Israel. I think it is in the Palestinian's court to give a sign of good faith.

So i'll be over with a few tanks to join you on your property - I'll have you out in the year and if you don't agree I might just kill you.

Thats your rules.

Let no one forget that there is a rule of law protecting Palestinian property and lands and all settlement activity is deemed illegal under international law (the same international law which Israel claims its legal status under). Israel has unilaterally declared that piece of law to not apply to it. Would it not be legitimate to then question its own legal entitlement to its lands since it has ignored the very body which has given it "legitimacy".

So Ravenhawk - you are factually wrong in claiming that the Isrealies have a right to seize Palestinian lands and property - they are illegal acts and by ignoring international law they undermine the legitimacy of the state of Israel. Any other state, not protected by the USA, would be under heavy sanctions for breaking international law as a consequence. The day of reckoning will someday come.

And no I am no willing to take your "might is right" legal opinion over the legal opinion of almost all international legal bodies on the planet.

Before you quote someone find out what they really believe;

All Israelis are settlers, all of Israel is occupied Palestine - Miko Peled

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
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