America choosing sides

[+and-then]

I assume everyone who'll be interested in commenting already knows the history of the Sunni/Shia schism. A situation is developing where Iranian IRGC are on the ground (presumably with the Iraqi leader's consent) fighting Iraqis and other Sunni rebels called ISIS. In short, these guys want a sharia law government around the world. But here's the part where the world gets REALLY strange for me. Obama is listening to plans by his military of how best to stem a very embarrassing fall of a government we put in place after spending billions $ and thousands of lives. I believe he is going to start dropping US munitions on Sunnis very soon - maybe hours - and essentially will have the US providing air cover for Iranian IRGC forces. Does anyone else find this to be irrational? Iran rides in to the help of a Shia leader of a primarily Sunni country and voila` Iran basically owns Iraq OR a full fledged civil war is raging like in Syria. I'm not saying I know a better way and I don't intend to respond to those "told 'ee so's" because that is immaterial now. Immaterial in that it changes and can change NOTHING and so is just childish and self indulgent. So what should the US do, if anything?

And it also looks as though we might be about to see the green zone and several thousand Americans subjected to a Benghazi style betrayal all for political face saving.

[Gromdor]

A lot of my veteran friends were upset that the government that they and their friends bled for was being overrun by ISIS. Their take was that it was better to side with the Iranians then let all of their friends lives to have been wasted for naught.

[Imaginarynumber1]

That area is just a giant cluster. There's no winning for us over there no matter what we do.

[libstaK]

That old saying "better the devil you know" never rang more true. The entire Iraq debacle from it's inception and action under Bush through to where we are now with the American retreat and it's outcomes under Obama should be listed in the Encyclopedia of "sayings" as the perfect example of what happens when people rush to remove something without a clear understanding of what will be left in it's place when they do. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, just ask the Iraqi's living in hell at the moment.

[S2F]

That area is just a giant cluster. There's no winning for us over there no matter what we do.

The US is partly (or completely, depending on who you ask) responsible for the mess over there right now. At some point though you have to wash your hands of a situation you can't change. You can't hand people freedom then expect them to die to protect it. That only comes from earning their freedom with their own blood. Personally I'm for containment. Make sure this infighting doesn't cross any borders and help refugees escape the violence. We can deal with the last man standing when the dust settles.

[spartan max2]

We should just not mess with it. The fact that this is happening now is proof that us messing the region virtually does none thing.

Like I said before we should of left right after we took Saddam and his men out.

[Imaginarynumber1]

The US is partly (or completely, depending on who you ask) responsible for the mess over there right now. At some point though you have to wash your hands of a situation you can't change. You can't hand people freedom then expect them to die to protect it. That only comes from earning their freedom with their own blood. Personally I'm for containment. Make sure this infighting doesn't cross any borders and help refugees escape the violence. We can deal with the last man standing when the dust settles.

I don't disagree. I think containment and humanitarian aid is what we should focus on at this point.

And then is right, no point in playing the blame game at this point, though we all know where the fault lies.

[Yamato]

I agree with Rand Paul. Let's figure out who our enemies are and what we're doing over there.

[+and-then]

I agree with Rand Paul. Let's figure out who our enemies are and what we're doing over there.

[media=]

[/media]

It's a very simple solution actually. If they are bearing arms in a conflict and they are praying toward Mecca and shouting allah hu akbar then they are our enemy. Sunni and Shia both hate the west and each other. Helping either side solves nothing, it just makes them stronger when they come for us. ISIS is a small entity and air power might be used effectively against them IF it were just done. But Oby will delay and publicly debate until they've had a chance to hide among the civilians in Iraq and become untouchable. If he delays for long enough then Iran will take care of the problem, growing stronger in Iraq at the same time. No real answers here anymore.

[Yamato]

It's a very simple solution actually. If they are bearing arms in a conflict and they are praying toward Mecca and shouting allah hu akbar then they are our enemy. Sunni and Shia both hate the west and each other. Helping either side solves nothing, it just makes them stronger when they come for us. ISIS is a small entity and air power might be used effectively against them IF it were just done. But Oby will delay and publicly debate until they've had a chance to hide among the civilians in Iraq and become untouchable. If he delays for long enough then Iran will take care of the problem, growing stronger in Iraq at the same time. No real answers here anymore.

Yeah and you find me one lawmaker in the US government who agrees with your Allahu Akbar fantasy bubble.

Flippant psycho-religious nonsense from people using the lives of other sons and daughters to do whatever the hell it is we're doing over there, and instead of being able to figure out what we're trying to accomplish and who our enemies are, we're helping who we're fighting and fighting who we're helping. Rand just got done telling you we're helping ISIS. It's a cluster ****. There's no way you can answer his questions because the policies make doing so impossible.

Gummug, get your sons and daughters in Kansas back into Iraq immediately please. How about a new post discussing exactly that? It's comfortable and convenient to sit on a couch while someone else's sons die for whatever. 'and then', you won't ever fight for your beliefs, but you need to get those Alabamians back into Iraq where they belong, killing the Allahu Akbars. Roofgardener, your soldiers left the good fight. It's pretty easy endorsing my countrymen to go die for whatever while yours sit on their hands in disinterest, laziness, cowardice, or whatever the lame excuse it is why your government doesn't employ the same policies you insist my country continue bleeding for. Back to Basra you go, put your money where your mouth is, instead of just my money all the time.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Yamato

[Thelaw1]

That old saying "better the devil you know" never rang more true. The entire Iraq debacle from it's inception and action under Bush through to where we are now with the American retreat and it's outcomes under Obama should be listed in the Encyclopedia of "sayings" as the perfect example of what happens when people rush to remove something without a clear understanding of what will be left in it's place when they do. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, just ask the Iraqi's living in hell at the moment.

I cannot, ever ever ever ever agree more with this statement. I literally said, word for word, your sentiments.

[Eldorado]

Oh what a tangled web we weave. When first we practice to deceive. - Sir Walter Scott

[Yamato]

Like I said before we should of left right after we took Saddam and his men out.

Well in hindsight, we should've gone into Afghanistan with all of our power and left after Al Qaeda was killed captured and destroyed there, and never invaded Iraq again at all. That place is a disaster. A disaster that's needing more US troops to continue the disaster for even longer.

[+susieice]

When will we ever learn? Twenty years later and they're right back at it. Where the blame lies isn't as important as realizing that a zebra will always be a zebra. A leopard doesn't change it's spots and we will never change what happens in that part of the world. Been going on for thousands of years and will go on til the end of time.

[Yamato]

So can we just skip it then, with killing the million people for a fascist war of commercialism, resources, politics, and defense+energy sector subsidies?

[+susieice]

Should we stay there for eternity trying to save them from themselves? Why should we send our young people over there? This will never stop.

[Yamato]

Our soldiers have served admirably. The policymakers can't get better than an F on their report cards at this point.

[+susieice]

They sure have. If some terrorist is going to attack me, I'd rather know they're over here.

[Yamato]

They sure have. If some terrorist is going to attack me, I'd rather know they're over here.

Wow. I never saw it as pragmatically as you have here.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Oh what a tangled web we weave. When first we practice to deceive. - Sir Walter Scott

The whole WEST - particularly The US and the UK people have been deceived. You point it out quite nicely.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Should we stay there for eternity trying to save them from themselves? Why should we send our young people over there? This will never stop.

And of course, you are right, susieice.

Since 1950, the US has had 40K troops baby sitting in South Korea and they too, will have to stay there for-bleepin'-ever

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

They sure have. If some terrorist is going to attack me, I'd rather know they're over here.

Allow me to tag on to that, please:

If we left those people alone, we would not have to worry about them attacking us home or abroad, at all.

We all know the US is their favorite target. Why is it we never hear of any Muslim terrorist groups attacking Peru, Paraguay, or Lichtenstein?

The answer is obvious. Let's stop trying to force them to be "Israel Tolerant"

[RoofGardener]

Currently, this is NOT an issue of terrorism.

Our error was to try and impose "Western Democracy" into a region for whom such a philosophy is alien.

Iraq and Afghanistan - in common with much of Arabia - operate on a tribal/clan system, and have almost always done so. Overlayed on this is the religion of Islam, which acts as a unifying factor against outside intervention. Iran is an Islamic Republic, though less tribally based than their neighbours.

This sounds harsh, but if we fail to recognise this.... if we treat these nations as though they where Western European ... then our foreign policy is doomed to bloodshed and failure, as has happened in Afghanistan and Iraq already.

The only rational course of conduct is to withdraw all military forces, and quarantine these countries. Allow humanitarian supplies in, but embargo ALL weapons sales. Don't make ANY friends, or try and influence the internal situation. Just allow it to play itself out, and deal with whoever wins on a strictly realpolitik basis.

Nouri al-Maliki (prime minister of Iraq) is NOT a decent, upstanding democrat. He has proven both personally and politically corrupt, running his 'democracy' like a banana republic dictator... and an incompetent one to boot. The name of the President of Iraq - Jalal Talabani - hardly inspires confidence either.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Currently, this is NOT an issue of terrorism.

Our error was to try and impose "Western Democracy" into a region for whom such a philosophy is alien.

Nope. I disagree. We destroyed Democracy, if need be, to get to a hidden agenda.

http://en.wikipedia....oup_d'état

The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup, was the overthrow of Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh and his cabinet on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United Kingdom (under the name 'Operation Boot') and the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project).

The CIA was so proud of pulling this off, they treated the operative responsible like a rock star when he returned to the US. Fact. The US then installed a succession of Shahs to do America and Israel's bidding, mainly, capture Muslim fundamentalists in Iran so they would not make Iran a Muslim theocracy. Ka-BOOM, did that ever backfire!

Meanwhile, the US treated Egypt like an ally because Sadat and Muburak agreed to stay Israel neutral in exchange for large sums of bribe money, even though Egypt never allowed for elections up until pre-Muburak's ouster, but even then, people could only vote for Muburak.

It is clear the US befriended and supported a country regardless as to whether or not it was a democratic nation, providing they stayed away from Israel, but sanctioned you, called you part of the Axis of Terror etc etc, if you did not stay neutral to Israel, even if you were a democratic nation.

See the "hidden agenda" now, Gardener?

Iraq and Afghanistan - in common with much of Arabia - operate on a tribal/clan system, and have almost always done so. Overlayed on this is the religion of Islam, which acts as a unifying factor against outside intervention. Iran is an Islamic Republic, though less tribally based than their neighbours.

This sounds harsh, but if we fail to recognise this.... if we treat these nations as though they where Western European ... then our foreign policy is doomed to bloodshed and failure, as has happened in Afghanistan and Iraq already.

The only rational course of conduct is to withdraw all military forces, and quarantine these countries. Allow humanitarian supplies in, but embargo ALL weapons sales. Don't make ANY friends, or try and influence the internal situation. Just allow it to play itself out, and deal with whoever wins on a strictly realpolitik basis.

Nouri al-Maliki (prime minister of Iraq) is NOT a decent, upstanding democrat. He has proven both personally and politically corrupt, running his 'democracy' like a banana republic dictator... and an incompetent one to boot. The name of the President of Iraq - Jalal Talabani - hardly inspires confidence either.

So, my opinion is, of course,the West - in particularly, the US/UK, have never been interested in forming better governments for ME countries, they have only been interested in buying out corrupt government leaders there for purposes of making their countries Israel neutral. That IS our Middle East policy, RoofGardener, and the people there hate us and their corrupt leaders because of it.

Now, of course, our scurrilous actions in the ME are finally coming home to roost, big time. Ka-BOOM. First, it was the 'Arab Spring', and now the mess that is Syria/Iraq ISIS crisis. It will never end until Western influence is totally driven out of their hemisphere.

And good luck to Israel.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Earl.Of.Trumps

[Sakari]

Nuke em all....

Split up the land with China and Russia, and the US.

Need a drop in the world population anyway. Kill two birds with one stone.