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War over hostage taking?

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Earl.Of.Trumps

This from the BBC News website article on the story..

On the face of it, the Palestinians have a point. If HAMAS, or any Palestinian terrorist group, where to kidnap somebody, then why three students, and why in such a (for them) risky area ?

I would imagine that the local Palestinians would not actively support such a kidnapping, in the sense of participating or even 'turning a blind eye', because they KNOW that it will be THEMSELVES who suffer from the resulting security crackdown. And kidnapping three people off the street in broad daylight would surely have caused a ruckus... people would have noticed it happening ?

Good points, RoofGardener.

Typically, Hamas and other operatives try to take/attack/kill someone in the military Like Gilad Shalit, but three Yeshiva students?

wow.

What really bothers me now is, many many innocent Palestinians will be rounded up - as in, "The usual suspects", and treated ruthlessly, I am sure.

tit for tat over there, all the time.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

All you have done is exposed your thinking and obvious bias Leo. No where did you provide any proof that your statement is accurate. I can only imagine the contortions you'll be going through soon. I see the Israelis getting ready to go medieval over this and I think they should.

You do realize the Hamas (or whoever) may have "gone midieval" themselves when Israel killed three fighters and this is jus revenge, right?

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Earl.Of.Trumps

This is a statement by your national network - they are liberally biased and they do not themselves do anything other than make a statement - they offer no source or proof to back up the ridiculous statement. You are berating me for refusing to acknowledge the veracity of a BBC report? They "know" these things yet do not explain how?

Allow me to chime in....

If he is wrong, then please show your link that shows there IS evidence that Hamas did it.

I'm betting he's right, there is no *known* evidence that I have seen,anyway

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Allow me to chime in....

If he is wrong, then please show your link that shows there IS evidence that Hamas did it.

I'm betting he's right, there is no *known* evidence that I have seen,anyway

I have none - nor does he, the difference is that HE made a blanket statement that disparaged Israel and assumed evidence that was not there. That was my only point. No one knows for sure who took them, though an al Q group and a couple others have been referenced in Jpost to have made claims of responsibility. All I know is that some reserves have been called up and Hamas leaders arrested. There has also been talk of re-arresting every one of the 1000 that were released for Shalit as well as those 100 or so most recently released. Israel is playing it hard and they should. If they don't then one of them will ever be safe from kidnapping.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

I have none - nor does he, the difference is that HE made a blanket statement that disparaged Israel and assumed evidence that was not there. That was my only point. No one knows for sure who took them, though an al Q group and a couple others have been referenced in Jpost to have made claims of responsibility. All I know is that some reserves have been called up and Hamas leaders arrested. There has also been talk of re-arresting every one of the 1000 that were released for Shalit as well as those 100 or so most recently released. Israel is playing it hard and they should. If they don't then one of them will ever be safe from kidnapping.

Which is Ok, if there is no evidence.

BTW, evidence and proof are two different things. if the Jerusalem Post story is accurate, then there is evidence that points to Al Qaeda sub group, but that is not Hamas.

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Leonardo

How did I "disparage Israel", and then?

Do you make that accusation because I accused the Israeli leadership of prejudice?

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and then

How did I "disparage Israel", and then?

Do you make that accusation because I accused the Israeli leadership of prejudice?

Not at all. I am simply calling you on making what appeared to be a statement of fact about a situation where there were no facts yet available and in doing so you used a default position of blaming Israel - even when it was Israeli 16 year olds who have been taken and probably are being brutalized. It happens all the time with these issues on Israel. People give their biases free reign and it's ugly.

Today 51 of the Shalit deal prisoners were re-arrested. Israel's Shin Bet threatened a Hamas leader with being droned and Gazans are preparing for an Israeli incursion. Meanwhile, on social media a new meme is gaining popularity - a 3 fingered gesture called "3 Shalits". The Palestinians are revelling in this kidnapping for now but very soon they are going to reap what their leaders have sown. I think Netanyahu would rather have this DONE and over - even at the expense of 3 dead teens - rather than dragging the country through years of waiting then giving in eventually to these murderous thugs.

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Leonardo

Not at all. I am simply calling you on making what appeared to be a statement of fact about a situation where there were no facts yet available and in doing so you used a default position of blaming Israel...

What "statement of fact" did I make that was not a fact?

Where did I "blame Israel", and what makes you assume that is my "default position"?

If you want to accuse me of prejudice, then show me the examples of my alleged prejudice - or else admit you have over-reacted.

Edited by Leonardo
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and then

What "statement of fact" did I make that was not a fact?

Where did I "blame Israel", and what makes you assume that is my "default position"?

If you want to accuse me of prejudice, then show me the examples of my alleged prejudice - or else admit you have over-reacted.

"The Israeli authorities have arrested or detained some 80 Palestinians based purely on a prejudice - not on any evidence.

What source do you have that proves there is no evidence Leo? Show it and we can move on. I submit that you uttered these words NOT because you had such evidence but simply because it is what you believe - in your obvious bias - to be true. This isn't about me needing to provide evidence as I made no statement of such being the case. The mossad, shin bet or some other entity within this government MIGHT have complete files on this by now but none have been made public so far as I'm aware. It's a relatively minor point but since you don't seem willing to admit your bias - PROVE it with evidence.

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Leonardo

"The Israeli authorities have arrested or detained some 80 Palestinians based purely on a prejudice - not on any evidence.

What source do you have that proves there is no evidence Leo? Show it and we can move on. I submit that you uttered these words NOT because you had such evidence but simply because it is what you believe - in your obvious bias - to be true. This isn't about me needing to provide evidence as I made no statement of such being the case. The mossad, shin bet or some other entity within this government MIGHT have complete files on this by now but none have been made public so far as I'm aware. It's a relatively minor point but since you don't seem willing to admit your bias - PROVE it with evidence.

How on earth can I produce a source which shows there is no evidence? :blink: That's impossible. :wacko:

However, all the sources provided at the time I posted what you quoted provided no evidence that Hamas is responsible - so my statement is a fact, not a prejudice. If you don't like it, tough.

Edited by Leonardo

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How on earth can I produce a source which shows there is no evidence? :blink: That's impossible. :wacko:

However, all the sources provided at the time I posted what you quoted provided no evidence that Hamas is responsible - so my statement is a fact, not a prejudice. If you don't like it, tough.

So you jump from no evidence that Hamas was to blame directly to the STATEMENT that the detentions were due to Israeli prejudice? That is an opinion Leo. Wow, you REALLY can't stand admitting when you are incorrect can you?

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Leonardo

So you jump from no evidence that Hamas was to blame directly to the STATEMENT that the detentions were due to Israeli prejudice? That is an opinion Leo. Wow, you REALLY can't stand admitting when you are incorrect can you?

*sigh*

If there is no evidence that Hamas (or any Palestinian group) abducted the 3 teens, then what reason did the Israeli authorities have for arresting 80 Palestinians?

That reason would be - ta da! Prejudice.

If you can't get your head around that, then we really have nothing more to discuss.

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*sigh*

If there is no evidence that Hamas (or any Palestinian group) abducted the 3 teens, then what reason did the Israeli authorities have for arresting 80 Palestinians?

That reason would be - ta da! Prejudice.

If you can't get your head around that, then we really have nothing more to discuss.

Of course! I see it all so clearly now... Years of conflict, murders, rockets..all from Palestinians and the constant attempts by Palestinians to kidnap more hostages for use in freeing prisoners - but all of that should not be factored into an investigation of this kidnapping. NO.. to do that is just prejudice.. :no: you are correct, we're done here.
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The BBC is one of the world's most respected news organisations but because they're reporting things you don't want to hear they are biased.That is beyond pathetic

Come now, are you actually saying the BBC isn't biased and at least a bit left leaning? They are no worse than many American outlets but saying that they are not liberal is inaccurate.
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Earl.Of.Trumps

So you jump from no evidence that Hamas was to blame directly to the STATEMENT that the detentions were due to Israeli prejudice? That is an opinion Leo. Wow, you REALLY can't stand admitting when you are incorrect can you?

Arrests of people can be made when there is no "proof" per sa, we know this.

However, I think anyone in here views Israel's action of mass arrests and detentions as being retalitory for the abductions and not at all done in the name of justice or with any hope at all in getting the abductees back.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Of course! I see it all so clearly now... Years of conflict, murders, rockets..all from Palestinians and the constant attempts by Palestinians to kidnap more hostages for use in freeing prisoners - but all of that should not be factored into an investigation of this kidnapping. NO.. to do that is just prejudice.. :no: you are correct, we're done here.

That's right, it should not. It's Ok the think anything you want, but putting those thoughts into a brutal action is wrongful when you have no evidence in *this* particular case.

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Sir Smoke aLot

15 years old Palestinian kid killed. About 300 Palestinians taken to jail ( Israel prime minister said that 280 of them are Hamas operatives )

That is what has happened so far since Israel started this new action because, allegedly, Hamas has kidnapped three Israeli students.

What i find funny is that, at time of raids Palestinian civilians did protest and Israelis accused them of using explosives and firearms so they respond ' with live fire, identifying hits '.

Link to article : http://www.bbc.com/n...e-east-27926098

Pictures in this 2nd article ( http://www.timesofis...t-bank-clashes/ ) prove that those stones in Palestinian kids arms were indeed highly explosive and lethal. Picture from earlier clashes. Use of live rounds... Only a sick brain would shoot a kid who is trying to hit him with stone. And not to mention how rude is it to try and justify such action. 3 people from refugee camp are also wounded, 2 seriously. Did refugees kidnap those students? And if explosives and firearms were used, how many people from Israeli army were wounded and killed? I mean, explosives must do harm especially in streets because there are lot of people in small area.

Did 15 year old kid do any harm to those 3 students? No he didn't, but he is dead. Should we talk about that dead teenager or about 3 students who are maybe gone fishing, partying... Hamas is responsible? Or it's just that young people are having fun away from home? Well, no one can say for sure, but people die and what makes me sad is that young people die.

Palestinian young die often and we all know what happens when some Israeli die, but hey, now we have 3 missing students and Palestinians do loose lives because of that, while no one knows why they are missing.

Edited by Sir Smoke aLot
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15 years old Palestinian kid killed. About 300 Palestinians taken to jail ( Israel prime minister said that 280 of them are Hamas operatives )

That is what has happened so far since Israel started this new action because, allegedly, Hamas has kidnapped three Israeli students.

What i find funny is that, at time of raids Palestinian civilians did protest and Israelis accused them of using explosives and firearms so they respond ' with live fire, identifying hits '.

Link to article : http://www.bbc.com/n...e-east-27926098

Pictures in this 2nd article ( http://www.timesofis...t-bank-clashes/ ) prove that those stones in Palestinian kids arms were indeed highly explosive and lethal. Picture from earlier clashes. Use of live rounds... Only a sick brain would shoot a kid who is trying to hit him with stone. And not to mention how rude is it to try and justify such action. 3 people from refugee camp are also wounded, 2 seriously. Did refugees kidnap those students? And if explosives and firearms were used, how many people from Israeli army were wounded and killed? I mean, explosives must do harm especially in streets because there are lot of people in small area.

Did 15 year old kid do any harm to those 3 students? No he didn't, but he is dead. Should we talk about that dead teenager or about 3 students who are maybe gone fishing, partying... Hamas is responsible? Or it's just that young people are having fun away from home? Well, no one can say for sure, but people die and what makes me sad is that young people die.

Palestinian young die often and we all know what happens when some Israeli die, but hey, now we have 3 missing students and Palestinians do loose lives because of that, while no one knows why they are missing.

Those 3 were kidnapped Sir. To think otherwise is unrealistic at best. The nation is ANGRY that some of their children have been grabbed in this way and they are lashing out. People do such things when angry. Unfortunate things like bystanders being injured or killed happen when armed people have reason to clash with them looking for kidnap victims. The answer? Don't kidnap people or have a party when it happens. The Palestinians are literally dancing and creating memes on social media over this event. Had the kidnapping not occurred my guess is that those injured and killed would be going about their business today as usual. Israelis didn't seek people out to harm in a vacuum. 2 sides to every story and I think you know that Sir.
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That's right, it should not. It's Ok the think anything you want, but putting those thoughts into a brutal action is wrongful when you have no evidence in *this* particular case.

:) nice try. If the Israelis don't find these kids then war is apt to be the result. That means a tremendous amount of damage and loss of life. And it will be a justified action because they will be responding to an aggression against their children. Just another tit for tat. I think the government is choosing the correct course here. If they react in an over the top manner - grab a few hundred and ransack towns looking for hiding spots for these kids then the next kidnappers will be given a little more of a pause before they act - hopefully. To give a pass to people like Leo who blithely indict Israel without anything other than assumptions is to strengthen the hatred against them. It isn't acceptable if it's done to any other group so it's not acceptable when done to Israelis.
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DeWitz

Three bodies were discovered in the West Bank today, the apparently kidnapped missing three young men (one of them had held dual citizenship--Israeli/American).

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redhen

"Investigators deduced that they had been murdered by their kidnappers after hearing the tape of a cellphone call one of the boys put into the emergency 101 emergency desk in Kiryat Arba.. He was heard whispering “I was kidnapped,” followed by an exchange of words in Arabic and gunshots. The cell phone was then abruptly switched off. The investigation could not establish whether all the boys were shot or one or more had survived. The police officer who received the call treated it as just another prank and passed it on after several precious hours were lost. This week, the commissioner sacked a number of police officers serving in the Hebron District."

source

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This is a sad day for Israel and it has the potential to begin a series of very bad days for everyone in the region.

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Yamato

Suddenly when it's Israel giving bad days, it's okay. Got it. But fortunately, there are plenty of sane people in the world who don't want to see violence, period.

It isn't saying much to brag about the potential and the capabilities of the US military's favorite trust-fund child. Israel isn't prosperous enough to buy its own weapons without bilking the US? It's R&Ding and building its own weapons, so of course it is.

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Suddenly when it's Israel giving bad days, it's okay. Got it. But fortunately, there are plenty of sane people in the world who don't want to see violence, period.

It isn't saying much to brag about the potential and the capabilities of the US military's favorite trust-fund child. Israel isn't prosperous enough to buy its own weapons without bilking the US? It's R&Ding and building its own weapons, so of course it is.

Not a lot of them in Gaza and the west bank though. This is just the latest act - more to follow.

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Leonardo

So, all this - and with no clear evidence the perpetrators were who the Israeli govt claim them to be - gives Israel "justification" for launching a "war of aggression" against Hamas and the Gaza Strip. Curiously, this follows closely on from the reconciliation of Hamas with the Palestinian Authority and their decision to form a Unity government.

Hamas still denies involvement in the kidnapping and also denies responsibility for the latest launching of rockets from Gaza into Israel - in retaliation for which for which Israel made 30 airstrikes into Gaza.

hmmmmm....

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