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War over hostage taking?

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Bavarian Raven

Suddenly when it's Israel giving bad days, it's okay.

Don't start a fight unless you are willing to accept the consequences of loosing said fight. All around its a bad situation but Isreal didn't start this, though they will most likely finish it for better or worse.

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RoofGardener

Netenyahu is in the wrong here.

To blast of at the mouth with darkly veiled threats of retribution, and to directly accuse HAMAS, when the medical examiner hasn't even issued a report yet, is just plain irresponsible. That's the sort of knee-jerk foaming-at-the-brain reaction I normally associate with the Arab Islamonutters.

For all we know, this could have been a drug deal gone wrong, or a plain robbery, or a half-dozen other scenario's. For crying out loud, let the police INVESTIGATE before jumping to conclusions.

Granted, a HAMAS murder is the most probable explanation, but "probable" is not the same as "proven".

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RoofGardener

Hmm... it gets worse.

Apparently a Palestinian youth was kidnapped in East Jerusalem, and murdered.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28122195

My first thought was that this is a revenge attack by an Israeli. However, it it was, then it was an audacious and risky one. The youth was kidnapped (bungled into a car) in the suburb of Shuafat, a predominantly (if not exclusively) Arab area. Any Israeli in Shuafat - even in a car - would surely stick out a bit ? People would surely notice ? (and subsequently report it to investigators).

All a bit odd. If it is a co-incidence (it IS a high crime and drug area), then the timing is catastrophic.

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and then

Hmm... it gets worse.

Apparently a Palestinian youth was kidnapped in East Jerusalem, and murdered.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-28122195

My first thought was that this is a revenge attack by an Israeli. However, it it was, then it was an audacious and risky one. The youth was kidnapped (bungled into a car) in the suburb of Shuafat, a predominantly (if not exclusively) Arab area. Any Israeli in Shuafat - even in a car - would surely stick out a bit ? People would surely notice ? (and subsequently report it to investigators).

All a bit odd. If it is a co-incidence (it IS a high crime and drug area), then the timing is catastrophic.

It IS unfortunate that this individual was murdered as are all murders. And while I doubt that any Israeli could have pulled it off without being seen I can also see how one might try something like this in the heat of the most recent passions. Doesn't excuse it, of course, but makes it more understandable. If this 3 finger meme continues there may well be more crimes of rage.
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Leonardo

Hmm... it gets worse.

Apparently a Palestinian youth was kidnapped in East Jerusalem, and murdered.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-28122195

My first thought was that this is a revenge attack by an Israeli. However, it it was, then it was an audacious and risky one. The youth was kidnapped (bungled into a car) in the suburb of Shuafat, a predominantly (if not exclusively) Arab area. Any Israeli in Shuafat - even in a car - would surely stick out a bit ? People would surely notice ? (and subsequently report it to investigators).

All a bit odd. If it is a co-incidence (it IS a high crime and drug area), then the timing is catastrophic.

I read this before signing in to UM. If this is a 'revenge killing' Netanyahu must bear some responsibility for his insistence the kidnappers/murderers of the 3 Israeli teens were Hamas without any evidence of that claim. He [Netanyahu] is inciting nationalistic/ethnic violence and should be held accountable for that.

Edited by Leonardo

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and then

I read this before signing in to UM. If this is a 'revenge killing' Netanyahu must bear some responsibility for his insistence the kidnappers/murderers of the 3 Israeli teens were Hamas without any evidence of that claim. He [Netanyahu] is inciting nationalistic/ethnic violence and should be held accountable for that.

I agree with you on this one. But my guess is that unlike the two who are suspected and cannot be found in the deaths of the 3 teens, these perps will be rounded up quickly if they are Jewish.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Well, a lot of countries have extremists, Israel is no exception. If this was a lunatic fringe citizen that wants retaliation or just to kill Arabs, I would feel far more comfortable with that scenario - especially if such person was apprehended, - than I would if the IDF did it as part of a government plan.

Ok, so one Arab teen was murdered. In and of itself.....? you have 3 times that many killed in Chicago every day. Can't cry for all of them. 'Nuff said??

The real problem I have is Israel's ongoing purge of the Hamas. How many innocents will die from the bombing runs? scores and scores, I am sure. and scores and scores >>> one.

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RoofGardener

Well, a lot of countries have extremists, Israel is no exception. If this was a lunatic fringe citizen that wants retaliation or just to kill Arabs, I would feel far more comfortable with that scenario - especially if such person was apprehended, - than I would if the IDF did it as part of a government plan.

Ok, so one Arab teen was murdered. In and of itself.....? you have 3 times that many killed in Chicago every day. Can't cry for all of them. 'Nuff said??

The real problem I have is Israel's ongoing purge of the Hamas. How many innocents will die from the bombing runs? scores and scores, I am sure. and scores and scores >>> one.

All very true.

Bear in mind, however, that Israel is not just responding to the four deaths. It is also being attacked by rockets fired by HAMAS from Gaza. You don't hear about this much in the news, but there have been around 10 rockets fired every day for the last couple of days. The previous month (July), around 50 rockets and mortar shells where fired at Israel from Gaza.

If Welsh Nationalists fired 50 rockets into Shropshire, then Wales would be under military lockdown by now. I think the Israeli's are being VERY patient.

Edited by RoofGardener
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and then

All very true.

Bear in mind, however, that Israel is not just responding to the four deaths. It is also being attacked by rockets fired by HAMAS from Gaza. You don't hear about this much in the news, but there have been around 10 rockets fired every day for the last couple of days. The previous month (July), around 50 rockets and mortar shells where fired at Israel from Gaza.

If Welsh Nationalists fired 50 rockets into Shropshire, then Wales would be under military lockdown by now. I think the Israeli's are being VERY patient.

The same type of answering actions would be expected by any sovereign nation on the planet... except ONE. If I were the leader of Israel I think I'd tell the world's leaders that from this day forward my country would answer all attacks with extreme violence. No stoppages for a UN chit chat that inevitably leads to yet another outbreak at a time of the Palestinian's choosing. The next rocket would herald the end of the Palestinian presence in Judea, Samaria and Gaza forever. Then I'd follow through. And the world would spin into paroxysms of grief and anger and then... do nothing except stop doing business with Israel - mostly. Some of the IT Israel is responsible for cannot be so easily boycotted by anyone.

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RoofGardener

The same type of answering actions would be expected by any sovereign nation on the planet... except ONE. If I were the leader of Israel I think I'd tell the world's leaders that from this day forward my country would answer all attacks with extreme violence. No stoppages for a UN chit chat that inevitably leads to yet another outbreak at a time of the Palestinian's choosing. The next rocket would herald the end of the Palestinian presence in Judea, Samaria and Gaza forever. Then I'd follow through. And the world would spin into paroxysms of grief and anger and then... do nothing except stop doing business with Israel - mostly. Some of the IT Israel is responsible for cannot be so easily boycotted by anyone.

Pfffft... bit 'liberal' and 'wishy-washy' isn't it, And Then ? :P

anyway, where - precisely - would Israel send all the palestinians ? Egypt ? Jordan ? Lebannon ? Those countries would hardly be happy about such an arrangement.

Edited by RoofGardener

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Earl.Of.Trumps

All very true.

Bear in mind, however, that Israel is not just responding to the four deaths. It is also being attacked by rockets fired by HAMAS from Gaza. You don't hear about this much in the news, but there have been around 10 rockets fired every day for the last couple of days. The previous month (July), around 50 rockets and mortar shells where fired at Israel from Gaza.

The intensity of rocket fire, of course is as a result of Israel doing bombing raids on Hamas.

If Welsh Nationalists fired 50 rockets into Shropshire, then Wales would be under military lockdown by now. I think the Israeli's are being VERY patient.

I understand but the Israelis always relied on the Iron Dome. Now, they just want to do some bombing of Hamas.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

The same type of answering actions would be expected by any sovereign nation on the planet... except ONE. If I were the leader of Israel I think I'd tell the world's leaders that from this day forward my country would answer all attacks with extreme violence.

Don't you think they are a bit tempered by their collective guilty conscience? They know why they're being rocketed on.

No stoppages for a UN chit chat that inevitably leads to yet another outbreak at a time of the Palestinian's choosing. The next rocket would herald the end of the Palestinian presence in Judea, Samaria and Gaza forever. Then I'd follow through. And the world would spin into paroxysms of grief and anger and then... do nothing except stop doing business with Israel - mostly. Some of the IT Israel is responsible for cannot be so easily boycotted by anyone.

They could do it all, but they are wiser than that. It would not last very long.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Don't start a fight unless you are willing to accept the consequences of loosing said fight. All around its a bad situation but Isreal didn't start this, though they will most likely finish it for better or worse.

I say that about Israel all the time. They started it, Muslims will finish it. *some day*

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Earl.Of.Trumps

It IS unfortunate that this individual was murdered as are all murders. And while I doubt that any Israeli could have pulled it off without being seen I can also see how one might try something like this in the heat of the most recent passions. Doesn't excuse it, of course, but makes it more understandable. If this 3 finger meme continues there may well be more crimes of rage.

Of course.

And this is really nothing but a pronounced microcosm of the whole situation there.

A suicide bomber at a busstop, a bombing run by IDF. back and forth, yada yada yada. What is it, 50 years now?

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Earl.Of.Trumps

I read this before signing in to UM. If this is a 'revenge killing' Netanyahu must bear some responsibility for his insistence the kidnappers/murderers of the 3 Israeli teens were Hamas without any evidence of that claim. He [Netanyahu] is inciting nationalistic/ethnic violence and should be held accountable for that.

BB's always been a loose cannon.

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and then

Don't you think they are a bit tempered by their collective guilty conscience? They know why they're being rocketed on.

They could do it all, but they are wiser than that. It would not last very long.

Who would stop them? No neighbor of theirs could. Turkey could try but would be battered or nuked in the process. No, obviously they won't (at least for now) but someday they'll get enough and realize they will NEVER, not ever, be accepted by the world and then they'll have a choice to make. Syria, Jordan, Lebanon or Egypt could all take some of the poor Palestinians they've been using all these years as a cudgel. You seem to have no problem with worrying where all the Israelis that'd be displaced would flee to.

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Black Red Devil

The same type of answering actions would be expected by any sovereign nation on the planet... except ONE. If I were the leader of Israel I think I'd tell the world's leaders that from this day forward my country would answer all attacks with extreme violence. No stoppages for a UN chit chat that inevitably leads to yet another outbreak at a time of the Palestinian's choosing. The next rocket would herald the end of the Palestinian presence in Judea, Samaria and Gaza forever. Then I'd follow through. And the world would spin into paroxysms of grief and anger and then... do nothing except stop doing business with Israel - mostly. Some of the IT Israel is responsible for cannot be so easily boycotted by anyone.

LOL, still beating war drums from behind the fence AT? Before he tells the world anything, why doesn't Bibi tell us how his country will stop occupying and controlling Gaza's airspace and territorial waters, water supply, electricity and communications infrastructure?

There is always a reaction to an action. You occupy, people rebel. Nevertheless, Hamas denied responsibility for the murders of the three kids so at this point, there is only one certainty. The right wing Govt of Israel is totally to blame for any events that arise from their occupation.

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LOL, still beating war drums from behind the fence AT? Before he tells the world anything, why doesn't Bibi tell us how his country will stop occupying and controlling Gaza's airspace and territorial waters, water supply, electricity and communications infrastructure?

There is always a reaction to an action. You occupy, people rebel. Nevertheless, Hamas denied responsibility for the murders of the three kids so at this point, there is only one certainty. The right wing Govt of Israel is totally to blame for any events that arise from their occupation.

So be it. As usual you take a very narrow view of the conflict. EVERYTHING is Israel's fault because Israel is illegitimate. That illegitimate government is there to stay, however, and will have to be totally driven into the sea for the Palestinians to achieve their objective. Since nothing short of a miracle will ever produce this result it makes more sense that the Muslims of the M.E. should give up that tack and try to actually live with the Jew, no? But they have shown they are not capable ( to this point anyway) of ever doing so. There WILL be another peace treaty and it will be a 7 year pact. Watch for it. But it gets "broken" (hudnah) in the mid point. Then all hell literally breaks loose on this earth.

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Black Red Devil

So be it. As usual you take a very narrow view of the conflict. EVERYTHING is Israel's fault because Israel is illegitimate. That illegitimate government is there to stay, however, and will have to be totally driven into the sea for the Palestinians to achieve their objective. Since nothing short of a miracle will ever produce this result it makes more sense that the Muslims of the M.E. should give up that tack and try to actually live with the Jew, no? But they have shown they are not capable ( to this point anyway) of ever doing so. There WILL be another peace treaty and it will be a 7 year pact. Watch for it. But it gets "broken" (hudnah) in the mid point. Then all hell literally breaks loose on this earth.

The blame isn't because I believe Israel is an illegitimate State. It's because they are breaching international law by boycotting and blockading the freedom of Palestinians therefore forcing Hamas, the ruling Party, to react. Hence, the missiles.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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RoofGardener

The blame isn't because I believe Israel is an illegitimate State. It's because they are breaching international law by boycotting and blockading the freedom of Palestinians therefore forcing Hamas, the ruling Party, to react. Hence, the missiles.

People keep saying that Israel is breaching international law, but they go very quiet when you ask them to cite the law in question.

Black Red Devil, can you advise me as to specifically which law Israel has broken in regard to the occupied territories ?

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Black Red Devil

People keep saying that Israel is breaching international law, but they go very quiet when you ask them to cite the law in question.

Black Red Devil, can you advise me as to specifically which law Israel has broken in regard to the occupied territories ?

Sure. Read this. It's a long article so you might want to read from "Israeli arguments" three quarters of the page downwards.

Basically, the Breach relates to the fact the blockade on Gaza is causing an excessive Humanitarian crisis and "collective punishment" to their citizens by an occupying force. It's also in Breach of the Geneva Convention protocols. In both cases Israel claims it is not an occupying force, although it does restrict movement of goods and civilians in and out of the territory and it deliberately interferes with Palestinian communication infrastructures.

Considering the blockade is being condemned as illegal by the UNHRC supported by Amnesty International, the International Committee of the Red Cross and a myriad of other Political leaders and Health Organisations, you would have to believe the experts, no?

In 2011, following the Flotilla crisis of 2010, a UN investigative team cleared the naval blockade as being legal, but the blockade by air, land and the communication interference is still considered as illegal.

Edited to add. The above only relates to Gaza. Israel is also in breach of International Security Council Resolutions (can't remember the number) in regards to the West Bank. The Breach: the illegal occupation of land by Israeli settlers and the annexation of East Jerusalem.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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RoofGardener

Thanks for that Red Black Devil, it was an interesting read.

I would point out, though, that it is somewhat circular. It makes vague references to "international law", and even the Geneva protocols, but doesn't say WHICH laws, or WHICH protocol, which leaves us non the wiser.

In regard the land/air blockade, bear in mind that Israel is not the 'occupying power' in Gaza. That is HAMAS.

Now, there is nothing in International Law that COMPELS a nation to have an open border with any given neighbour. Israel is not legally obliged to permit the flow of goods or people into/out of Gaza.

If Gaza was entirely surrounded by Israel, then it might be a different story, but it isn't. Gaza also has a border with Egypt, so Israel cannot be held to be "blockading Gaza".

So, once more, where is this "law" that everyone alludes to, but nobody can name ?

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and then

Thanks for that Red Black Devil, it was an interesting read.

I would point out, though, that it is somewhat circular. It makes vague references to "international law", and even the Geneva protocols, but doesn't say WHICH laws, or WHICH protocol, which leaves us non the wiser.

In regard the land/air blockade, bear in mind that Israel is not the 'occupying power' in Gaza. That is HAMAS.

Now, there is nothing in International Law that COMPELS a nation to have an open border with any given neighbour. Israel is not legally obliged to permit the flow of goods or people into/out of Gaza.

If Gaza was entirely surrounded by Israel, then it might be a different story, but it isn't. Gaza also has a border with Egypt, so Israel cannot be held to be "blockading Gaza".

So, once more, where is this "law" that everyone alludes to, but nobody can name ?

Also quietly set aside from the discussion is that there existed no blockade until fighters within these areas began killing Israeli citizens - seemingly as for sport.

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Yamato

Thanks for that Red Black Devil, it was an interesting read.

I would point out, though, that it is somewhat circular. It makes vague references to "international law", and even the Geneva protocols, but doesn't say WHICH laws, or WHICH protocol, which leaves us non the wiser.

In regard the land/air blockade, bear in mind that Israel is not the 'occupying power' in Gaza. That is HAMAS.

Now, there is nothing in International Law that COMPELS a nation to have an open border with any given neighbour. Israel is not legally obliged to permit the flow of goods or people into/out of Gaza.

If Gaza was entirely surrounded by Israel, then it might be a different story, but it isn't. Gaza also has a border with Egypt, so Israel cannot be held to be "blockading Gaza".

So, once more, where is this "law" that everyone alludes to, but nobody can name ?

It's taking measures with Egypt and without Egypt to block that border too. What do you think all that "smuggling" through the secret tunnels is about? Gaza is blockaded. Period. Why deny reality? Because that feels good? I'll kick Egypt in the face at the same velocity I kick Israel. Why play favorites? Why separate nonsense into individual packets of nonsense?

There's plenty of laws. You're always asking questions about Israel like you hadn't even read posts before that I know you participated in. Israeli bureaucrats saying nutjob things? You never saw that from Israel? You missed the David Sheen OP I put up just days earlier and you really needed a link back to it? Come on. What laws. Binding UN Security Council resolutions, one after the other. Stop pretending to be a helpless damsel in distress needing a link to everything without Google or internet. Do your own homework and then be responsible for it. There's mobs of evidence; but what you're interested in is evidence that proves your politics right. You want to support Israel and so you'll gravitate towards anything you can find that supports your preconceived notion, so at least go get that.

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