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War over hostage taking?

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Yamato

Also quietly set aside from the discussion is that there existed no blockade until fighters within these areas began killing Israeli citizens - seemingly as for sport.

They were settling on the goddamned land before that, are you seriously this bloody ignorant? In 1967 the IDF moved in and the refugees of Gaza became refugees again. Blindness to everything you don't want to see helps you see clearly. Half the population wasn't even alive in 1967.

If punishing innocent people forever for something someone else did generations ago is the kind of world you want this to be, then stop being a hypocrite and start asking for it in your own country.

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Black Red Devil

Thanks for that Red Black Devil, it was an interesting read.

I would point out, though, that it is somewhat circular. It makes vague references to "international law", and even the Geneva protocols, but doesn't say WHICH laws, or WHICH protocol, which leaves us non the wiser.

Ok buddy, I'll do the research for you. You get this one for free.

The UN is the main world organisation for security, peace and humanitarian issues. It has a Charter. Amongst the Principles laid out in its charter is Chapter I, it's Purposes and Principles. Article 1.3 of the UN Purposes and principles says:

3) To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion

As mentioned in my previous post, Israel is breaching international law by causing a humanitarian crisis in Gaza through the blockade, therefore breaching the conditions of the Charter. This has been recognised by all Human Rights Orgs, world leaders and the head of the UN, Security General Ban Ki Moon himself,

Keeping a large and dense population in unremitting poverty is in nobody's interest except that of the most extreme radicals in the region," he declared.

Israel asserts that the blockade is part of its efforts to prevent the smuggling of weapons and military equipment to Gaza's terror groups.

Ban, whose comments were echoed at the 47-nation council by the UN's High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay, also urged Israel to respect Palestinian rights and international law and support efforts to build a stable Palestinian state.

link

In regard the land/air blockade, bear in mind that Israel is not the 'occupying power' in Gaza. That is HAMAS.

LOL, so are you saying Hamas is blockading itself?

Now, there is nothing in International Law that COMPELS a nation to have an open border with any given neighbour. Israel is not legally obliged to permit the flow of goods or people into/out of Gaza.

That is called oppression

If Gaza was entirely surrounded by Israel, then it might be a different story, but it isn't. Gaza also has a border with Egypt, so Israel cannot be held to be "blockading Gaza".

How simplistic. As mentioned, it is controlling and restricting anything that goes in and out via air, land or sea.

So, once more, where is this "law" that everyone alludes to, but nobody can name ?

Well Roof, I suppose we'll have to just take your denial of facts and accept that Israel isn't breaching international law despite what all the experts say. LOL.

Also, the word occupation is compliant with the situation.

5. to take possession and control of (a place), as by military invasion.

link

The IDF is in full control of the place and has been involved in many invasions.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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and then

And the same day the IDF gave control back to the Palestinians, opened the blockade and closed all the checkpoints, BRD, care to spell out what you think would happen?

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RoofGardener

Ok buddy, I'll do the research for you. You get this one for free.

The UN is the main world organisation for security, peace and humanitarian issues. It has a Charter. Amongst the Principles laid out in its charter is Chapter I, it's Purposes and Principles. Article 1.3 of the UN Purposes and principles says:

3) To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion

As mentioned in my previous post, Israel is breaching international law by causing a humanitarian crisis in Gaza through the blockade, therefore breaching the conditions of the Charter. This has been recognised by all Human Rights Orgs, world leaders and the head of the UN, Security General Ban Ki Moon himself,

[/i]

link

LOL, so are you saying Hamas is blockading itself?

That is called oppression

How simplistic. As mentioned, it is controlling and restricting anything that goes in and out via air, land or sea.

Well Roof, I suppose we'll have to just take your denial of facts and accept that Israel isn't breaching international law despite what all the experts say. LOL.

Also, the word occupation is compliant with the situation.

5. to take possession and control of (a place), as by military invasion.

link

The IDF is in full control of the place and has been involved in many invasions.

But again, Red Black Devil, that is all circular. You've written many words, but nowhere do you cite the specific "International laws" that Israel is accused of breaking. You merely cite various organisations or individuals who - in turn - cite unspecified "International law". It's an echo chamber.

OK.. let me do some of your work for you :P

I looked through the Geneva convention, and I think that the earlier mentions of it may have been referring to the Fourth Protocol, which deals with the treatment of civilians in an occupied territory. In 1988, Israel got a right slapping from the UN Security Council for deporting about 400 Palestinians into the (then) "no-mans-land" between Israel and Lebannon. (Resolution 607). This cited the fourth Geneva protocol, which forbids mass deportations (or even forced movement within the territory).

Israel protested the decision, stating that the group where all terrorists (Lebanon seemingly agreed; it refused entry to the group, having become seriously peeved with the chaos that Palestinian terrorists had already caused in its OWN country). The UN pondered this, and then said "tough... you're still not allowed to do it", and hit Israel with a follow-up resolution (608). Israel begrudingly demurred, and allowed the group back in.

Lets return to the UN Charter for a minute;

3) To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion

Israel complies with this, as best it can under very difficult circumstances. The key phrase is "co-operation in solving international problems... ". Israel co-operates with the UN, even when it disagrees with it.

In regard the "blockade" of Gaza. I will re-iterate: no nation is obliged to open its borders to a neighbour. That is not oppression. Unfriendly, perhaps. Unconstructive, maybe, but not oppressive, UNLESS one country is entirely surrounded by the other, which is not the case in Gaza.

Now, WHY does Israel put border restrictions in place ? Well, consider this. Since HAMAS took control of Gaza in 2007, rocket attacks from the Strip have averaged at several hundred PER MONTH. How is this possible when Gaza has no explosives industry, no chemical industry, no Iron mines, no coal mines, and no steel foundries ? Where are these rockets being made ?

The answer is.. Russia. They are smuggled into Gaza either by sea, or by land.

Actually, that's not entirely true. There ARE some home-made "Quassam" rockets, made from chopped up steel tubing or pipe, and using 'home brew' propellants and explosives made from standard industrial (or even household) chemicals, but these have fallen somewhat out of favour compared to the longer range Russian GRAD rockets.

The bulk of the 'Grad' rockets are smuggled through tunnels under the Egyptian border. The tunnels are lined with concrete or cement, and supported with steel girder sections.

So, Israel forbids the entry of any materials that can be used to manufacture (or help smuggle in) those rockets. And that includes all manner of "precursor" chemicals, and building materials such as pipe, tubing, cement, and steel in general.

And the 'international community' beats its breast and says "Oh... its a blockade.. the cruel Israeli's"

Tell me Red and Black, what would YOU do if Tasmania was launching hundreds of rockets per month into Melbourne ?

(coming from Sydney, you'd probably say.. "applaud" .. :P )

(sorry.. couldn't resist... :w00t: )

And we're STILL waiting for those "International Laws".

Edited by RoofGardener

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Black Red Devil

But again, Red Black Devil, that is all circular. You've written many words, but nowhere do you cite the specific "International laws" that Israel is accused of breaking. You merely cite various organisations or individuals who - in turn - cite unspecified "International law". It's an echo chamber.

OK.. let me do some of your work for you :P

I looked through the Geneva convention, and I think that the earlier mentions of it may have been referring to the Fourth Protocol, which deals with the treatment of civilians in an occupied territory. In 1988, Israel got a right slapping from the UN Security Council for deporting about 400 Palestinians into the (then) "no-mans-land" between Israel and Lebannon. (Resolution 607). This cited the fourth Geneva protocol, which forbids mass deportations (or even forced movement within the territory).

Israel protested the decision, stating that the group where all terrorists (Lebanon seemingly agreed; it refused entry to the group, having become seriously peeved with the chaos that Palestinian terrorists had already caused in its OWN country). The UN pondered this, and then said "tough... you're still not allowed to do it", and hit Israel with a follow-up resolution (608). Israel begrudingly demurred, and allowed the group back in.

Can someone explain what this garbage refers to in the context of what is being discussed? Sorry roof, something's not gripping, you must have lost some of your your tiles....

Lets return to the UN Charter for a minute;

3) To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion

Israel complies with this, as best it can under very difficult circumstances. The key phrase is "co-operation in solving international problems... ". Israel co-operates with the UN, even when it disagrees with it.

Israel complies do they?

As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by United Nations Human Rights Council since its creation in 2006—the Council had resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined.

link

You know why Israel have been allowed to get away with their conduct against the Palestinians until know?? Thanks to Uncle Sam and he's vetoing powers. Do you even know how what and how this works LOL.

In regard the "blockade" of Gaza. I will re-iterate: no nation is obliged to open its borders to a neighbour. That is not oppression. Unfriendly, perhaps. Unconstructive, maybe, but not oppressive, UNLESS one country is entirely surrounded by the other, which is not the case in Gaza.

WTF you talking about mate??! It's not about Israel opening it's borders? The blockade is about Israel restricting the Palestinians.

Now, WHY does Israel put border restrictions in place ? Well, consider this. Since HAMAS took control of Gaza in 2007, rocket attacks from the Strip have averaged at several hundred PER MONTH. How is this possible when Gaza has no explosives industry, no chemical industry, no Iron mines, no coal mines, and no steel foundries ? Where are these rockets being made ?

The answer is.. Russia. They are smuggled into Gaza either by sea, or by land.

Actually, that's not entirely true. There ARE some home-made "Quassam" rockets, made from chopped up steel tubing or pipe, and using 'home brew' propellants and explosives made from standard industrial (or even household) chemicals, but these have fallen somewhat out of favour compared to the longer range Russian GRAD rockets.

The bulk of the 'Grad' rockets are smuggled through tunnels under the Egyptian border. The tunnels are lined with concrete or cement, and supported with steel girder sections.

So, Israel forbids the entry of any materials that can be used to manufacture (or help smuggle in) those rockets. And that includes all manner of "precursor" chemicals, and building materials such as pipe, tubing, cement, and steel in general.

And the 'international community' beats its breast and says "Oh... its a blockade.. the cruel Israeli's"

Yeppp exactly. Similar to Nazi Germany. Lets oppress and suppress the whole population after we've stolen most of their land and if they dare fight back let's label them rebels and insurgents or even better, terrorists. After all, they have no Right to disrupt the livelihood of decent Israeli citizens. Why don't they just lay down and accept the inevitable?

Do you do your nazi salute in the morning when you look yourself in the mirror and goosestep your way to work?

And we're STILL waiting for those "International Laws".

:unsure2: Unbelievable

Edited by Black Red Devil

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RoofGardener

Can someone explain what this garbage refers to in the context of what is being discussed? Sorry roof, something's not gripping, you must have lost some of your your tiles....

YOU mentioned the geneva conventions in your post #72 here. I was clarifying which ones where applicable. Pay attention.

Israel complies do they?

Almost always. On the few occasions when they don't, they always challenge the basis of the resolutions, and engage with the UN to resolve the situation. They NEVER just ignore them.

As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by United Nations Human Rights Council since its creation in 2006—the Council had resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined.

link

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.

You're going to cite the UNHCR ? The most discredited department within the entire UN ? (and THAT is saying something).

The UNHCR has proven - like it's predecessor - to be anti-Israel, and heavily influenced by the Organisation of the Islamic Conference. It focused exclusively on Israel, to the exclusion of all other world events.It has been criticised in these terms by the previous Secretary General of the UN, Khofi Annan, the current Secretary General, Ban Ki-moon, the President of the Council, the United States, the European Union, Canada, Australia, France, the United Kingdom and even China. The UNHCR has ZERO credibility when it comes to Israel, and is only a few more Resolutions away from being disbanded, just like its predecessor was, as being an embarrassment to the UN. This is the organisation that elected such "supporters" of Human Rights as Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and China onto its ruling council, and once staged a conference in the UN building with - amongst others - HAMAS spokesmen. Yeah... right.... viva Human Rights.

You know why Israel have been allowed to get away with their conduct against the Palestinians until know?? Thanks to Uncle Sam and he's vetoing powers. Do you even know how what and how this works LOL.

Yaddah yaddah vetoes yaddah. Actually, it was by the Bavarian Illuminati using thought control.

WTF you talking about mate??! It's not about Israel opening it's borders? The blockade is about Israel restricting the Palestinians.

Israel is not restricting the Palestinians. It is merely being choosy about what it allows through its borders, in terms of both people and material. There is no law against this. The POINT is that this goes back to the claim that Israel is breaking "international law". Oh yeah ? WHICH law, specifically ? Because closing its borders, or controlling what goes through, is NOT illegal. Far from it: it is the birthright of Nations.

Can someone explain what this garbage refers to in the context of what is being discussed? Sorry roof, something's not gripping, you must have lost some of your your tiles....

Certainly. It is quite simple.

You stated that Israel was in breach of International Law.

I challenged you, and asked... "WHICH international law ? "

You then brought up the issue of "blockades", which I have dealt with above, and in the previous post, and in the one before that.

And once more, I ask the question; WHICH international law is Israel supposed to be in breach of ?

And you answered thusly.

........

Do you do your nazi salute in the morning when you look yourself in the mirror and goosestep your way to work?

Such incisive whit. Such razor-sharp repartee. Surely we are in the presence of a veritable Oscar Wilde, with such subtle put-downs and calumniations. .

Now behave yourself, my Antipodean friend, lest I tire of your slander and send a Gunboat over to teach you uppity colonials a lesson !

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and then

YOU mentioned the geneva conventions in your post #72 here. I was clarifying which ones where applicable. Pay attention.

Almost always. On the few occasions when they don't, they always challenge the basis of the resolutions, and engage with the UN to resolve the situation. They NEVER just ignore them.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.

You're going to cite the UNHCR ? The most discredited department within the entire UN ? (and THAT is saying something).

The UNHCR has proven - like it's predecessor - to be anti-Israel, and heavily influenced by the Organisation of the Islamic Conference. It focused exclusively on Israel, to the exclusion of all other world events.It has been criticised in these terms by the previous Secretary General of the UN, Khofi Annan, the current Secretary General, Ban Ki-moon, the President of the Council, the United States, the European Union, Canada, Australia, France, the United Kingdom and even China. The UNHCR has ZERO credibility when it comes to Israel, and is only a few more Resolutions away from being disbanded, just like its predecessor was, as being an embarrassment to the UN. This is the organisation that elected such "supporters" of Human Rights as Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and China onto its ruling council, and once staged a conference in the UN building with - amongst others - HAMAS spokesmen. Yeah... right.... viva Human Rights.

Yaddah yaddah vetoes yaddah. Actually, it was by the Bavarian Illuminati using thought control.

Israel is not restricting the Palestinians. It is merely being choosy about what it allows through its borders, in terms of both people and material. There is no law against this. The POINT is that this goes back to the claim that Israel is breaking "international law". Oh yeah ? WHICH law, specifically ? Because closing its borders, or controlling what goes through, is NOT illegal. Far from it: it is the birthright of Nations.

Certainly. It is quite simple.

You stated that Israel was in breach of International Law.

I challenged you, and asked... "WHICH international law ? "

You then brought up the issue of "blockades", which I have dealt with above, and in the previous post, and in the one before that.

And once more, I ask the question; WHICH international law is Israel supposed to be in breach of ?

And you answered thusly.

Such incisive whit. Such razor-sharp repartee. Surely we are in the presence of a veritable Oscar Wilde, with such subtle put-downs and calumniations. .

Now behave yourself, my Antipodean friend, lest I tire of your slander and send a Gunboat over to teach you uppity colonials a lesson !

I almost aspirated diet coke on this one! :w00t:

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Mr.United_Nations

Laws Violated: U.N. Charter, Article 2(4) & 51 (1945); Declaration on Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations…, Principle 1

(1970).

Israeli Actions: It is illegal under international law to acquire land by force: Israel annexed land occupied by force during 1948 and 1967 wars (lands

other than those given by the UN 1947-48 partition plan) ILRC article. Military action and occupations are legal only if they are for self-defense, or

to directly benefit the native population. But studies show Israel is not just defending itself as it develops de-facto annexation with its settlements and

separation barrier on occupied land, as it takes over most of the occupied territories (over 70%) and its natural resources for its own use and

economic benefit, at the expense of the native population. ILRC article on why the Occupation is illegal.

Laws Violated: Geneva Conventions IV, Article 49(6) (1949). It is illegal to colonize occupied land or transfer non-indigenous population to that

land.

Israeli Actions: Immediately following the 1967 war, Israel began building Israeli civilian settlements on Palestinian lands, eventually building over

200 settlements throughout the occupied territories, and settling over 450,000 Israeli civilians in them, displacing hundreds of thousands of Palestinian

civilians from their own legally owned lands. In addition, Israeli citizens live in hundreds of Israeli settlements on occupied land not originally given

to them in the UN Partition Plan, displacing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

Laws Violated: U.N. Charter, Article 2(4) (1945); Declaration on Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations…, Principle 1

(1970).

Israeli Actions: In violation of the UN Partition Plan, Israel took an extra 15% of the land in 1948, and then, following the 1967 war, Israel

confiscated East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.

Laws Violated: Forbidding civilian populations the right to return to their homes following the end of armed conflict is in direct violation of

international law and UN resolutions. Geneva Convention IV, Articles 45, 46 & 49 (1949), UN resolutions 194 (III) (General Assembly; 1948) &

237 (Security Council; 1967).

Israeli Actions: Since 1910, in different ways, the Zionists and then Israel have taken Palestinian lands, forced native populations from their land,

and then refused the Palestinian landowners or tenants’ residency or employment on them. Following fighting in 1948 and then again in 1967,

Palestinian civilians who wished to return to their homes in Israel and the Occupied Territories were forbidden re-entry (“right of return”), confining

them to increasingly smaller areas of Israel and Occupied Territories. The Israeli government enacts laws, and employs its military to keep

approximately 750,000 Palestinian Arab civilians from returning to their homes following the end of fighting both in 1948 and in the occupied

territories in 1967. Israel then violates UN resolutions ordering them to respect Palestinians’ right to return to their homes.

Laws Violated: International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (1976). Link to our fact sheets on Israeli

Apartheid.

Israeli Actions: The State of Israel has a formal system of legalized discrimination against Palestinian Arabs which technically fits the official UN

definition of Apartheid. ILRC article. Israel’s society-wide system of discrimination and isolation of the Palestinian people within Israel, and its

system of exploitation, oppression and isolation in the occupied territories, fits exactly the official, legal UN definition of apartheid, which is

considered to be a crime against humanity. The practice of passing laws which give special favor throughout Israeli society to the Jewish people over

all other people, and especially the native Palestinian Arab people, embodies the UN definition of apartheid, which is giving special favor to one

group of people above all other groups based on criteria like what religion they are.

Another example is in 2003, the Israeli legislature (Knesset) passed legislation that forbade spouses of Arab-Israeli citizens who are in the occupied

territories from joining their families in Israel (with some exceptions). The reason for this legislation is to help maintain the Jewish demographic

majority family unification. The racist nature is evident in that only Palestinians (no other ethnic groups) are not forbidden to live in Israel after

marrying an Israeli. ILRC article. General article. Amnesty International argues that this law violates fundamental principles of equity, human

dignity and personal freedom enshrined in basic law as well as the rights of the child to live with both parents and other fundamental rights enshrined

in human rights treaties in which Israel is a signer

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Mr.United_Nations

Laws Violated: U.N. Charter, Article 1 (1945); Declaration on Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations…, Principle 5 (1970).

Israeli Actions: Studies by UN, I.C.J., and International H.R. organizations have found that Israel violates the human rights of Palestinian people on

a massive scale, including torture, imprisonment without charges or trial, land confiscation, harassment at checkpoints, unwarranted civilian

shootings, not punishing Israeli settlers’ crimes against Palestinians, unwarranted disruption of medical care, commerce, employment, free

movement, destruction of public and private property, family separation

Laws Violated: Geneva Conventions IV, Article 33 (1949); Geneva Conventions (Protocol I), Article 75(2d) (1977).

Israeli Actions: In response to Arab rebellion, Israeli Military takes massive action against entire Palestinian communities, for example destroying

entire neighborhoods of homes, or confiscating communal farmlands, bulldozing homes, blocking off certain areas, or not allowing civilian

populations to leave their houses for extensive periods of time. This is called collective punishment because it punishes entire communities for the

actions of a few

Laws Violated: Hague Regulations IV, Article 43 (1907).

Israeli Actions: Israel has created a dual legal system in the occupied territories – a democratic one linked to Israel for the Israeli settlements, and an

oppressive, exploitive one for the Palestinian communities run by the Israeli military committees and Israeli-controlled civic administrations,

replacing all Arab government functions with Israeli military committees, and dismissing or deporting all Arab government official

Laws Violated: Israel has violated 28 resolutions of the United Nations Security Council (which are legally binding on member-nations U.N.

Charter, Article 25 (1945); a few sample resolutions - 54, 111, 233, 234, 236, 248, 250, 252, 256, 262, 267, 270, 280, 285, 298, 313, 316, 468, 476,

etc.

Israeli Actions: Israel has violated many U.N. Security Council resolutions especially relating to its occupations, land annexations, military

aggression, HR violations, etc.. ILRC article.

Separation Barrier Ruled Illegal

Law Violated: International Court of Justice of 2004, in an advisory opinion, ruled the Israeli separation barriers illegal. They condemned the

separation wall Israel is building throughout the occupied West Bank in a 14 to 1 ruling. The Court begins by citing, with reference to Article 2,

paragraph 4, of the United Nations Charter and to General Assembly resolution 2625 (XXV), the principles of the prohibition of the threat or use of

force and the illegality of any territorial acquisition by such means, as reflected in customary international law. It notes that significant amounts of

land are defacto annexed by the separation barrier. It further cites the principle of self determination of peoples, as enshrined in the Charter and

reaffirmed by resolution 2625 (XXV). As regards international humanitarian law, the Court refers to the provisions of the Hague Regulation of 1907,

which have become part of customary law, as well as the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of

1949, applicable in those Palestinian territories which, before the armed conflict of 1967, lay to the east of the 1949 Armistice demarcation line (or

“Green Line”) and were occupied by Israel during that conflict. The Court further notes that certain human rights instruments (International

Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and the United Nations Convention on the

Rights of the Child) are applicable in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. It finds that the construction of the wall and its associated régime are

contrary to the relevant provisions of the Hague Regulations of 1907 and of the Fourth Geneva Convention; that they impede the liberty of

movement of the inhabitants of the territory as guaranteed by the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights; and that they also impede the

exercise by the persons concerned of the right to work, to health, to education and to an adequate standard of living as proclaimed in the International

Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and in the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Lastly, the Court finds that this construction

and its associated régime, coupled with the establishment of settlements, are tending to alter the demographic composition of the Occupied

Palestinian Territory and thereby contravene the Fourth Geneva Convention and the relevant Security Council resolutions.

Israeli Action: The separation barrier built by Israel snakes it way though the West Bank, isolating Palestinians from each other, from their land,

work, schools and health care. The wall confiscates significant amounts of land and annexes more land to Israel. The court said: The construction of

the wall being built by Israel, the occupying power, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, and its associated

regime, are contrary to international law.” “Israel is under an obligation to make reparation for all damage caused by the construction of the wall

in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem.” The court noted that significant amounts of the West Bank are,

defacto, annexed by the wall.

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Mr.United_Nations

So yeah thats alot of breaking laws, Israel isn't that well respected in Europe

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and then

So yeah thats alot of breaking laws, Israel isn't that well respected in Europe

Israel isn't well respected anywhere. Fortunately for them, they have the weapons and the will to protect themselves from those who would see them in a new diaspora - or worse.

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Black Red Devil

Yaddah yaddah vetoes yaddah. Actually, it was by the Bavarian Illuminati using thought control.

Such incisive whit. Such razor-sharp repartee. Surely we are in the presence of a veritable Oscar Wilde, with such subtle put-downs and calumniations. .

Now behave yourself, my Antipodean friend, lest I tire of your slander and send a Gunboat over to teach you uppity colonials a lesson !

OK, cut....cut....cut....cut

{pondering} Geez, now that I've whittled through all the rest of the useless and abominating BS that just wasted three minutes of my time reading, I'll waste another three minutes and dedicate some energy to these two highly inspirational pieces of art roofy boy has written.

The top one is an absolute clincher. Say no more. I'm totally proud that you have finally found out and disclosed to us all the reason the US vetoes everything that breathes when the word Israel is mentioned. Thankyou :yes:

Now, the next one!! Beautiful. Love the words......repartee (I said it with a french accent, how about you?). Please come down with your gunboat you pompous, stuck up, lily-butt pom. :w00t:

Stop wasting peoples time, buffoon

Edited by Black Red Devil

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Black Red Devil

So yeah thats alot of breaking laws, Israel isn't that well respected in Europe

You mean in the world.

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Black Red Devil

Israel isn't well respected anywhere. Fortunately for them, they have the weapons and the will to protect themselves from those who would see them in a new diaspora - or worse.

And why is that? Let me guess, anti-semitism?

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and then

And why is that? Let me guess, anti-semitism?

Does "why" even matter after 2 millennia? Just attend to the rest of my comment and you'll do fine ;)

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Black Red Devil

Laws Violated: U.N. Charter, Article 2(4) & 51 (1945); Declaration on Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations…, Principle 1

(1970).

Israeli Actions: It is illegal under international law to acquire land by force: Israel annexed land occupied by force during 1948 and 1967 wars (lands

other than those given by the UN 1947-48 partition plan) ILRC article. Military action and occupations are legal only if they are for self-defense, or

to directly benefit the native population. But studies show Israel is not just defending itself as it develops de-facto annexation with its settlements and

separation barrier on occupied land, as it takes over most of the occupied territories (over 70%) and its natural resources for its own use and

economic benefit, at the expense of the native population. ILRC article on why the Occupation is illegal.

Laws Violated: Geneva Conventions IV, Article 49(6) (1949). It is illegal to colonize occupied land or transfer non-indigenous population to that

land.

Israeli Actions: Immediately following the 1967 war, Israel began building Israeli civilian settlements on Palestinian lands, eventually building over

200 settlements throughout the occupied territories, and settling over 450,000 Israeli civilians in them, displacing hundreds of thousands of Palestinian

civilians from their own legally owned lands. In addition, Israeli citizens live in hundreds of Israeli settlements on occupied land not originally given

to them in the UN Partition Plan, displacing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

Laws Violated: U.N. Charter, Article 2(4) (1945); Declaration on Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations…, Principle 1

(1970).

Israeli Actions: In violation of the UN Partition Plan, Israel took an extra 15% of the land in 1948, and then, following the 1967 war, Israel

confiscated East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.

Laws Violated: Forbidding civilian populations the right to return to their homes following the end of armed conflict is in direct violation of

international law and UN resolutions. Geneva Convention IV, Articles 45, 46 & 49 (1949), UN resolutions 194 (III) (General Assembly; 1948) &

237 (Security Council; 1967).

Israeli Actions: Since 1910, in different ways, the Zionists and then Israel have taken Palestinian lands, forced native populations from their land,

and then refused the Palestinian landowners or tenants’ residency or employment on them. Following fighting in 1948 and then again in 1967,

Palestinian civilians who wished to return to their homes in Israel and the Occupied Territories were forbidden re-entry (“right of return”), confining

them to increasingly smaller areas of Israel and Occupied Territories. The Israeli government enacts laws, and employs its military to keep

approximately 750,000 Palestinian Arab civilians from returning to their homes following the end of fighting both in 1948 and in the occupied

territories in 1967. Israel then violates UN resolutions ordering them to respect Palestinians’ right to return to their homes.

Laws Violated: International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (1976). Link to our fact sheets on Israeli

Apartheid.

Israeli Actions: The State of Israel has a formal system of legalized discrimination against Palestinian Arabs which technically fits the official UN

definition of Apartheid. ILRC article. Israel’s society-wide system of discrimination and isolation of the Palestinian people within Israel, and its

system of exploitation, oppression and isolation in the occupied territories, fits exactly the official, legal UN definition of apartheid, which is

considered to be a crime against humanity. The practice of passing laws which give special favor throughout Israeli society to the Jewish people over

all other people, and especially the native Palestinian Arab people, embodies the UN definition of apartheid, which is giving special favor to one

group of people above all other groups based on criteria like what religion they are.

Another example is in 2003, the Israeli legislature (Knesset) passed legislation that forbade spouses of Arab-Israeli citizens who are in the occupied

territories from joining their families in Israel (with some exceptions). The reason for this legislation is to help maintain the Jewish demographic

majority family unification. The racist nature is evident in that only Palestinians (no other ethnic groups) are not forbidden to live in Israel after

marrying an Israeli. ILRC article. General article. Amnesty International argues that this law violates fundamental principles of equity, human

dignity and personal freedom enshrined in basic law as well as the rights of the child to live with both parents and other fundamental rights enshrined

in human rights treaties in which Israel is a signer

Yeah but.....but........the International law.....now specifically!!.....where is it?.....what............but, but............hahahaha

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Black Red Devil

Does "why" even matter after 2 millennia? Just attend to the rest of my comment and you'll do fine ;)

Said by a true zionist. :tu:

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and then

Said by a true zionist. :tu:

Proudly so... and your answer to post #78?

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Yamato

Proudly so...

You should tell Ravenhawk it's not an insult. A lot of people are Zionists and most of them are probably as proud as you are.

Too much pride in one group has led to oppression of people from the other group, and so it's gone too far for too long. Nobody's safety or security is being jeopardized by admitting it. US policies should resemble the rest of the world's. We're becoming energy independent at home; it's time to leave the Middle East to the Middle East.

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Black Red Devil

Proudly so... and your answer to post #78?

Ok, you wanted it, you get it. Here it goes LOL.

I'm not a visionary so I don't know what would happen if they stopped the blockade and I surely don't have the answers but only personal opinions. Analysing the situation....

How long can the current situation continue? Rockets are still flying and kids murdered like they were 10 years ago. Future is uncertain and war is always around the corner. Sure. Israel currently holds a strong position. They have a powerful military arsenal, professional personnel units and they hold the strategic high ground (so to speak) which allows them to prevent and fend off their enemies most times. Unfortunately, on occasions this enemy filters through and causes nerve racking panic and death amongst the Israeli population. Retaliatory attacks start and world condemnation follows because of the over proportionate weight of air and land strikes from the IDF which are intended to teach the enemy a decisive lesson but all they do is strengthen hatred towards an unwanted occupation and the usurpers of such. Most times the ones who suffer and get murdered are the innocent who just want to live a peaceful life with prospects of a future to look forward to and who constitute the majority of the population on both sides.

The biggest problem for Israel is if the world (and the US) gets sick of the oppression, discrimination, occupation and humanitarian crisis this blockade and occupation is causing and forces the situation on Israel by ending it cooperatively or through sanctions. Let's not forget the west is a close ally with SA and we know the influence it has on the Sunni world and ME in general. If they had to resort to a political compromise for cooperation, i.e. for oil (less likely), a standoff against a powerful Shia/Russian alliance or worst of all, joining up to diminish the power of a growing and dangerous Islamist groups (ISIS?), where would that leave Israel? First of all it would be a moral victory for Hamas and other Islamic fundamentalists because the blockade wasn't ended under a mutual cooperative and peaceful agreement, therefore, they would be able to gloat and trumpet to the world how righteous their cause was and furthermore convince the un-aligned Palestinians to “join in” and fight an enemy that was only willing to oppress, discriminate and subdue them. What will Israel do? Fight to the end to defend their land? Probably yes and they have the weaponry to do so. Is this the question mark young Israelis want to live under? Hmmm....

The alternatives have been suggested already (One State solution, Two State solution). There may be more. Unfortunately the Zionist Govt of Israel isn’t interested in pursuing any solution and you know why? Because there are side effects to these solutions which go against the fundamental beliefs and concepts of what Israel was built on and is all about. Zionism.

Zionists created Israel (obviously with the help and blessings from Great Britain and France) believing it was only to be a Jewish State, hence they entrenched this belief in Israeli institutions since the State of Israel was established in 1948. The local Arab population was never meant to be a part of this “grand plan”. It was only for Jews, worldwide. Geographically, the plan actually extends into Syria and Iraq but I’m pretty sure Zionists would settle with current Israel minus the Arabs.

Talks for a One State or, for the more adaptable Two State Solution have halted because they don’t apply to Zionist idealism. For example, this entails Palestinians to live under a Jewish State which basically means laws and socio-political lifestyles are mainly orientated towards Judaism. This also means they become second class citizens in their own country due to the Law of Return that allows Jews from all parts of the world to become Israeli citizens overnight (with who knows what other benefits) while they and all other different religious groups would be constrained under different conditions. There is nothing new about living under a religiously orientated Govt and Constitution. In fact the Middle East is full of Islamic States. Unfortunately the location of Israel is another kettle of fish and there are too many important religious icons involved. Also, the way Israel came about is another major issue and stumbling block. Naively speaking, the easy solution of all would be to ditch all religions but I’m pretty that won’t happen in my life time or in my daughters.

So. IMO, the only way forward is for Israel to compromise and work on solutions with the more moderate Palestinian elements and hopefully create a State that would comprise all three Abrahamic religions, prosper and prove to the Islamic world that it is possible to have different beliefs and still live in peace. I know, not easy. Let's not also forget that Zionists played an important role together with the British in creating the Jewish State (Balfour Declaration of 1917), a State built in the middle of a land full of Muslims and where Jews were the vast minority. So, if they want peace they need to take the first step and exclude Zionism and talks of a Jewish State. But they have to be serious about it (unlike Camp David). On the other side of the fence, If these "peace talks" mean bypassing Hamas, so be it.

Of one thing I'm certain. The Jewish population and more specifically, Zionists (and the west), will never be forgiven for forcefully taking over a land enshrined in Islamic holy sites without a fight to the death and the last man standing. Allah expects them to. These people are fanatical about their religion and they will not lay down. Considering the circumstances, some would say rightly so. After all, this struggle has been going on for a 100 years and will continue for who knows how long, unless there are compromises from both sides or, one of the sides is totally annihilated or, the world finally ditches religions, all religions.

Edited by Black Red Devil
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and then

Thank you. I appreciate the thoughtful effort in stating your position. I agree that long term the outlook is very depressing and that short of one side annihilating the other there can be no solution. You may not have said that but I think it's the most likely outcome. Neither side is going to give up. Israelis think the land is theirs and want it all. The Palestinians feel the same way and are willing to do ANYTHING to keep at it until they wear the Jews out to force them to leave. Your "moderate" Palestinians exist I suspect, but as soon as they open their mouths publicly they will be killed and I think you know this. IMO the immediate result of a unilateral disengagement of Israel from Judea and Samaria - including delegitimizing and forcefully removing all settlers would not be peace. It would lead to a brief period of celebration and entrenchment by the Palestinians and then new rocket fire and suicide bombings would begin. Israel has three choices ultimately. Surrender and try to live as second class citizens in the land they have made to prosper. Continue to fight the long and endless fight. Destroy their enemies and live as a pariah state for an unknowable length of time.

Regardless their choice they will never have the love or respect of the international community.

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Black Red Devil

I don't think you're giving compromise enough of a chance. As I said in my second last paragraph in my previous post, they have to be serious about peace and if they are, they can achieve it.

Unfortunately this won't happen with certain playmakers in power (Likud and Hamas). It's up to the moderate elements from both sides to move these guys along. In 2008 when the last peace talks took place both parties were only 1% of land mass away from agreeing to cut up the cake (see here) and settle with a two state solution which most countries in the world agree too.

So, it can be done. It's not all doom and gloom.

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RavenHawk

And the same day the IDF gave control back to the Palestinians, opened the blockade and closed all the checkpoints, BRD, care to spell out what you think would happen?

One does not need to be a visionary to know what will happen and it's the same thing that has always happened. The minute that Israel shows any conciliatory action for peace will be exploited as weakness. Israel has two options. One is to seek the one-state solution and dominate the Palestinian just as Jordan did. Or two, it can become second-class citizens in their own land. And the whole point behind Zionism is to provide a homeland where that no longer is the case and that includes being able to defend themselves by themselves. It can not afford to allow another entity to manage their security, ever. Zionism is not a dirty word. It is basically the Israeli version of Manifest Destiny. I wouldn't claim that this land belongs to the Palestinians because of the numerous Islamic heritage sites. There are quite a few more Jewish ones that have been there for a lot longer. Besides, the Islamic sites are Islamic, not Palestinian. As RoofGardener and And Then have previously mentioned in one way or the other, when the Mandate ended, the neighbors had claimed territory from the indigenous squatters. So the question would be, if Israel did not exist, would there be a Palestine? I think the answer is obvious.

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and then

I don't think you're giving compromise enough of a chance. As I said in my second last paragraph in my previous post, they have to be serious about peace and if they are, they can achieve it.

Unfortunately this won't happen with certain playmakers in power (Likud and Hamas). It's up to the moderate elements from both sides to move these guys along. In 2008 when the last peace talks took place both parties were only 1% of land mass away from agreeing to cut up the cake (see here) and settle with a two state solution which most countries in the world agree too.

So, it can be done. It's not all doom and gloom.

I guess i am just a pessimist where this is concerned. I've watched these attempts unfold for 40 years and the story always stays the same. The biggest reason for me to feel this way is the ongoing investment the Palestinian leadership has in teaching hatred of Jews to their children. That kind of culture is not something that can be easily or quickly blunted. It will take a generation or more at least.

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Yamato

"Indigenous squatter"?

Seriously?

As if, they were already there but the law and order they lived under just wasn't going to be recognized anymore after the new law and order showed up. Bugger that b******s.

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