Repentance

[~TheBigK~]

Apologies if this has been discussed before but I couldn't find anything on it when I searched. Anyway, I recently witnessed a debate sparked by this image:

So basically it's saying that because serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer repented and asked for forgiveness, he's in heaven while Carl Sagan who is generally accepted as a good and incredibly influential person ended up in hell because he's an atheist.

There are a lot of issues I have with this but there was one comment in particular I found troubling, someone said "if there's hope that someone like Dahmer could receive pardoning from God then I'm glad because that means there's hope for me." To me that's essentially saying well hey if this horrible human being can get into heaven then I'm cool with that cause it means I can too, and that just seems like an awful reason to support such a belief. What is the point of listing off sins you should never commit, when you can just accept God and have them all washed away in the end? It also brings up the question how do we know a criminal is sincere and not just repenting to look good for the court/public? Does God know if the person has genuine remorse or desire to be good? Where is the line between blind faith and taking responsibility for your own actions? I think that forgiveness is generally a good thing in principal but in cases like this it just seems counterproductive and illogical.

All of that being said I know there are some religious people who don't support this and prefer to believe God would judge based on your character instead of whether or not you believe. Which I think is great. I guess I'm just curious to hear everyone's opinions on this especially if you're religious. If you are particularly religious are you comfortable with this concept and do you support it?

[JimmyK]

Greetings,

I accept the fact that judgement belongs to God. I do believe in The Bible and accept it as The Word of God. I do not find that it teaches that all one must do is believe and in fact teaches that belief alone is dead.

The above picture does not represent Christian logic.

I hope this helps.

Regards

JimmyK

[+and-then]

Greetings,

I accept the fact that judgement belongs to God. I do believe in The Bible and accept it as The Word of God. I do not find that it teaches that all one must do is believe and in fact teaches that belief alone is dead.

The above picture does not represent Christian logic.

I hope this helps.

Regards

JimmyK

I agree up to a point. But how does one determine how "much" it requires to be found worthy? A little? Everything? Or does the word tell us that no one is righteous and works are never enough to make us so? No man can really know the heart of another. As to deciding who gets "in", it isn't our choice so we have to decide if we want it enough to believe and to do (as best we are able) his will.

[~TheBigK~]

Greetings,

I accept the fact that judgement belongs to God. I do believe in The Bible and accept it as The Word of God. I do not find that it teaches that all one must do is believe and in fact teaches that belief alone is dead.

The above picture does not represent Christian logic.

I hope this helps.

Regards

JimmyK

Okay well I recognize that there are other requirements besides believing, such as baptism and repenting. But all you have to do to not get into heaven is be a non-believer. So should someone like Dahmer get into heaven simply because he repented? If that's not Christian logic what would you consider it to be in regards to repentance? I can't pretend to know everything about the bible so I'm just genuinely curious.

[JimmyK]

I agree up to a point. But how does one determine how "much" it requires to be found worthy? A little? Everything? Or does the word tell us that no one is righteous and works are never enough to make us so? No man can really know the heart of another. As to deciding who gets "in", it isn't our choice so we have to decide if we want it enough to believe and to do (as best we are able) his will.

Greetings,

"How much it requires to be found worthy" is an interesting question. The how much is answered with the blood of Christ. The Word in fact does teach us that there is none that is righteous and that all have sinned. Therefore it is nessesary for the unworthy (man) to come into contact with the worthy (the blood of Christ.)

I believe the Word teaches us how and when that is accomplished. Hearing The Word, believing it, confessing Christ and being baptized for the remission of sins are all scriptual requirements and the combination of all is the act of turning to God. Therein one comes in contact with the blood and is risen to walk in newness of life.

From there we are told to maintain fellowship one with the other by walking in The Light and in so doing the blood of Christ continuously cleanses us from all sin.

Hope this helps and thanks for your kind response.

Regards

JimmyK

[JimmyK]

Okay well I recognize that there are other requirements besides believing, such as baptism and repenting. But all you have to do to not get into heaven is be a non-believer. So should someone like Dahmer get into heaven simply because he repented? If that's not Christian logic what would you consider it to be in regards to repentance? I can't pretend to know everything about the bible so I'm just genuinely curious.

Greetings,

I cannot speak to the mans standing before God. That belongs to God alone. The question, "...So should someone like Dahmer get into heaven simply because he repented.." is not for me to say. If the man died "In Christ" then it is Christ that God will look at not the man.

I am getting the grandkids ready for VBS so I will be back later if you would like further clarification.

Thanks for your kindness!

JimmyK

[eight bits]

Wrong caption.

Presumably by "Christian Logic" you meant "Protestant Logic," and even then, not all Protestants would agree that non-believers end up in hell (umm, not all Protestants believe that there is any hell to end up in). I've posted this clip before.

>

Graham and Schuller were criticized by a certain type of Protestant for what they said there. Nevertheless, Graham and Schuller were undoubtedly prominent Protestant spokespeople, and this is what they preached.

The majority of Christians aren't even Protestants. Roman Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and adherents of churshes in communion with one or more of those three have far more members than the Protestant denominations. The argument you criticize has some force against hundreds of millions of people, but for most Christians, it's just a straw man.

Conclude: effective, or even honest, counterapologetics needs more than a snarky demotivational poster.

[~TheBigK~]

Wrong caption.

Presumably by "Christian Logic" you meant "Protestant Logic," and even then, not all Protestants would agree that non-believers end up in hell (umm, not all Protestants believe that there is any hell to end up in). I've posted this clip before.

>

Graham and Schuller were criticized by a certain type of Protestant for what they said there. Nevertheless, Graham and Schuller were undoubtedly prominent Protestant spokespeople, and this is what they preached.

The majority of Christians aren't even Protestants. Roman Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and adherents of churshes in communion with one or more of those three have far more members than the Protestant denominations. The argument you criticize has some force against hundreds of millions of people, but for most Christians, it's just a straw man.

Conclude: effective, or even honest, counterapologetics needs more than a snarky demotivational poster.

I'm not the one who made that photo. Trust me I'm not a proponent of using memes or demotivational posters as a means of getting my point across, I merely posted it here to show you guys it was where the debate stemmed from. As I said, I realize that not all Christians have that belief system and I don't know everything about the different beliefs which is why I posted this. I want to know what different Christians/non-Christians think about this.

[Omnaka]

God loves unconditionaly. You will judge your self, make your own hell etc,.

If you dont forgive your self, you won't believe God does either. And with freewill in spirit, you will separate your self from unconditional love. God does not judge.

[Davros of Skaro]

The wide range of responses you will get is very telling.

Even though I am not a believer, I see it like this.

John 3:18

New International Version (NIV)

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Here are some online tools.

http://www.biblegateway.com/

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm

Edited June 19, 2014 by davros of skaro

[JJ50]

Apologies if this has been discussed before but I couldn't find anything on it when I searched. Anyway, I recently witnessed a debate sparked by this image:

So basically it's saying that because serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer repented and asked for forgiveness, he's in heaven while Carl Sagan who is generally accepted as a good and incredibly influential person ended up in hell because he's an atheist.

There are a lot of issues I have with this but there was one comment in particular I found troubling, someone said "if there's hope that someone like Dahmer could receive pardoning from God then I'm glad because that means there's hope for me." To me that's essentially saying well hey if this horrible human being can get into heaven then I'm cool with that cause it means I can too, and that just seems like an awful reason to support such a belief. What is the point of listing off sins you should never commit, when you can just accept God and have them all washed away in the end? It also brings up the question how do we know a criminal is sincere and not just repenting to look good for the court/public? Does God know if the person has genuine remorse or desire to be good? Where is the line between blind faith and taking responsibility for your own actions? I think that forgiveness is generally a good thing in principal but in cases like this it just seems counterproductive and illogical.

All of that being said I know there are some religious people who don't support this and prefer to believe God would judge based on your character instead of whether or not you believe. Which I think is great. I guess I'm just curious to hear everyone's opinions on this especially if you're religious. If you are particularly religious are you comfortable with this concept and do you support it?

The totally crazy logic of the 'you must be 'saved' or go to hell' buffoons, is beyond me!

[AZDZ]

Even though I am not a believer, I see it like this.

John 3:18

New International Version (NIV)

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

That one verse is just that, only one verse. Everything the Bible says concerning the topic must be taken into account. to form a more complete picture.

By his words it would seem that Sagan wasn't a believer but no one knows what he thought in his heart except the Judge of hearts. He may have lived a perfect life secretly believing in the LORD despite what he said with his lips.

One thing often overlooked about God is His claim to be a perfect Judge, nobody ever gets anything over on him no matter how clever they think they are. Even you, Davros, despite your lack of faith in the LORD, you may be forgiven because you are only responding in a logical way to the evidence He has allowed us to have. You don't think God knows how difficult He has made it for you to accept Him? You are serving Him in exactly the way he intended you to.

So long as [you or] Sagan never blasphemed (Bible's definition, not mans) the Holy Spirit then there is no reason not to believe he [nor you] was [will be] saved.

[+Liquid Gardens]

The argument you criticize has some force against hundreds of millions of people, but for most Christians, it's just a straw man.

Conclude: effective, or even honest, counterapologetics needs more than a snarky demotivational poster.

Sure, but if counterapologetics are to be ineffective or less than honest merely because maybe some/most Christians don't actually argue the particular apologetic being countered, then there are very few possible honest counterapologetics possible, short of lots of qualification that still may not be comprehensive enough, because of the incredible range of Christian beliefs. I would think hundreds of millions of believers would pretty much establish that this logic is not a fringe belief. I guess the title of the poster could have instead said "Christian Logic (for those hundreds of millions of Christians who believe a stereotypical hell exists and believe the only way to salvation is by accepting Jesus as your personal savior and that all those who do go to heaven and all those who do not go to hell)"; get's a little wordy though.

To me, where the poster fails is in the indication that Sagan is in hell. One of my favorite verses in the Bible is Romans 9:18: "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.", which to me says any argument that so and so is in hell (or heaven) can't really be argued with much to support it.

[+Liquid Gardens]

So long as [you or] Sagan never blasphemed (Bible's definition, not mans) the Holy Spirit then there is no reason not to believe he [nor you] was [will be] saved.

My understanding is that it is not even possible for non-believers to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, only believers. (using 'blasphemy' as I maybe wrongly understand it from the Bible, not how we use 'blasphemy' on earth, where we do use it to cover any denial of something someone else finds sacred).

[~TheBigK~]

The wide range of responses you will get is very telling.

Even though I am not a believer, I see it like this.

John 3:18

New International Version (NIV)

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Here are some online tools.

http://www.biblegateway.com/

http://skepticsannot...e.com/index.htm

Thanks for the links!

Yeah the answers I've gotten here and elsewhere have been pretty different. John 3:18 is how I've been seeing it as well but as AZDZ said, that's only one and I've been seeing many. And most of those happen to be fairly contradictory such as:

JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

1 John 3:7: Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous

Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

I figured the most common response I would get would be that of "it's not our place to question God" which is fine as someones personal belief, but that doesn't work for me.

[JimmyK]

Thanks for the links!

Yeah the answers I've gotten here and elsewhere have been pretty different. John 3:18 is how I've been seeing it as well but as AZDZ said, that's only one and I've been seeing many. And most of those happen to be fairly contradictory such as:

JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

1 John 3:7: Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous

Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

I figured the most common response I would get would be that of "it's not our place to question God" which is fine as someones personal belief, but that doesn't work for me.

Greetings,

I cannot speak to the most common response, but I would say mine would differ and I understand why such would not work for you.

I do not find any contradiction in the examples you gave.

"....JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not..."

Neither are in the context with the other and the context would be key to understanding.

1John 3:9 is better compared to 1John 1: 7-9

^"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. ⁸ If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. ⁹ If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

The action of cleansing is continuous here and is contingent on walking in the light. 1John 3:9 is in the immediate context of two types of folks. 1) Those that make a practice of sinning (1John 3:4) and those who practice righteousness (1John 3:7).

The differnce is while there is none that IS righteous, there are many that through Christ are MADE righteous. Romans 4:3 is a good example;

^"For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Abraham was not righteous aside from his faith. Through it he was counted (made) righteous.

I hope this is helpful.

Regards

JimmyK

[Davros of Skaro]

That one verse is just that, only one verse. Everything the Bible says concerning the topic must be taken into account. to form a more complete picture.

By his words it would seem that Sagan wasn't a believer but no one knows what he thought in his heart except the Judge of hearts. He may have lived a perfect life secretly believing in the LORD despite what he said with his lips.

One thing often overlooked about God is His claim to be a perfect Judge, nobody ever gets anything over on him no matter how clever they think they are. Even you, Davros, despite your lack of faith in the LORD, you may be forgiven because you are only responding in a logical way to the evidence He has allowed us to have. You don't think God knows how difficult He has made it for you to accept Him? You are serving Him in exactly the way he intended you to.

So long as [you or] Sagan never blasphemed (Bible's definition, not mans) the Holy Spirit then there is no reason not to believe he [nor you] was [will be] saved.

I have told people Jesus never existed.

I have told people that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than Dopamine created in the Brain inducing euphoria, and or hallucination.

If your fairy tale of magic Blood is true?I have no doubt that I will be cast away to burn with no chance at remittance.

Matthew 10:32-39

New International Version (NIV)

32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 

35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,

    a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

36     a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

Mark 3:29

29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

Luke 12:10

10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

John 15:6

6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

[Davros of Skaro]

Thanks for the links!

Yeah the answers I've gotten here and elsewhere have been pretty different. John 3:18 is how I've been seeing it as well but as AZDZ said, that's only one and I've been seeing many. And most of those happen to be fairly contradictory such as:

JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

1 John 3:7: Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous

Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

I figured the most common response I would get would be that of "it's not our place to question God" which is fine as someones personal belief, but that doesn't work for me.

Y/w

You have the fear tactic, all loving God tactic, and anywhere inbetween from a Book loaded with contradictions.

The qoute below my location says it all.

I invite you to take the time to watch the three lectures in my signature.

Edited June 20, 2014 by davros of skaro

[epicdarkness]

Jesus fixes everything, drink too much no problem go to aa and find him. No need for doctors or professionals jesus has all you need. Kill your family but repent, enjoy an eternity in paradise just by saying some words. *** once and don't repent before you die go directly to a lake of fire. Makes perfect sense doesn't it?

[JJ50]

Jesus fixes everything, drink too much no problem go to aa and find him. No need for doctors or professionals jesus has all you need. Kill your family but repent, enjoy an eternity in paradise just by saying some words. *** once and don't repent before you die go directly to a lake of fire. Makes perfect sense doesn't it?

Total sense to those who don't use any form of logic where their religion is concerned!

[StarMountainKid]

I think repentance, as religious belief, is based on selfishness and fear. 'I' want to go to heaven, 'I' don't want to die to suffering or nothingness. Of course, this is a normal reaction to death, so I suppose it can be forgiven or at least understood.

I must add arrogance to the mix, as humility doesn't seem to play much of a part in this. If the religious were not arrogant about their belief they would just keep quiet. Is the wish to 'save' others benevolance or a means to fortify their egocentric conviction of their own righteousness?

Is better to return home and tend your own garden. We all know this would be a rare and considerably difficult and even an heroic achievement for anyone. Instead we all want to change the world to conform to our own personal opinions. All one has to do is to look around and see what effect this attitude has had on society.

[AZDZ]

Davros, the more you crow about how unredeemable you are the more the LORD may surprise you in the end.

Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Amos 9:2a Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them;

By your own admissions, you are a sinner, Christ came for sinners. Pretty sneaky way to guarantee yourself a spot in Heaven. lol Who knows, you may end up His right hand man.

Edited June 20, 2014 by AZDZ

[Davros of Skaro]

Davros, the more you crow about how unredeemable you are the more the LORD may surprise you in the end.

Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Amos 9:2a Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them;

By your own admissions, you are a sinner, Christ came for sinners. Pretty sneaky way to guarantee yourself a spot in Heaven. lol Who knows, you may end up His right hand man.

I will never believe because I did the thinking and research that you refuse to do.

Very underhanded use of Amos by the way.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Amos+9%3A1-10&version=NIV

Edited June 20, 2014 by davros of skaro

[Awake2Chaos]

What I have always found interesting is that you have this God, who gives us a brief life, and then judges according to that one life, and you are metted out your due for eternity.

Doesn't that seem sadistic? "Here, here is 70 +/- years to get it right, and if you don't, an eternity of damnation awaits you!" I just don't think that if there is a God out there that he has that much faith in humanity, or is he going to create life only to pick it apart when given the cirucumstances that exist on this planet.

If that is the case, you can take 'forgiving' right out of the vocabulary associated with him/her/it.

Evil is evil, no matter how much you repent. I'd like to think that common sense would rule here, and people would be judged by their deeds, not their words. (My guess is Dahmer is shredded and scattered to the 4 corners of the universe.)

Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them?

-Jules Feiffer

Edited June 20, 2014 by Awake2Chaos

[~TheBigK~]

I think repentance, as religious belief, is based on selfishness and fear. 'I' want to go to heaven, 'I' don't want to die to suffering or nothingness. Of course, this is a normal reaction to death, so I suppose it can be forgiven or at least understood.

I must add arrogance to the mix, as humility doesn't seem to play much of a part in this. If the religious were not arrogant about their belief they would just keep quiet. Is the wish to 'save' others benevolance or a means to fortify their egocentric conviction of their own righteousness?

Is better to return home and tend your own garden. We all know this would be a rare and considerably difficult and even an heroic achievement for anyone. Instead we all want to change the world to conform to our own personal opinions. All one has to do is to look around and see what effect this attitude has had on society.

Yes I agree, and it's definitely an understandable fear. I don't know if anyone can truly be comfortable with the idea of death or what does/doesn't come after. But I can see why it would be a comfort to believe in heaven. Regardless that goes back to my op because I imagine that's why many criminals like Dahmer supposedly find God or repent on their death bed. As for the desire to "save" people I think that could be both egocentric as well as benevolence. The ones who hand out pamphlets and approach random people to save, that definitely seems egocentric. Aiming it at loved ones though I can see as being benevolent to a degree. Personally I think it's misguided and unnecessary, but they believe they're being caring.

Davros, the more you crow about how unredeemable you are the more the LORD may surprise you in the end.

Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Amos 9:2a Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them;

By your own admissions, you are a sinner, Christ came for sinners. Pretty sneaky way to guarantee yourself a spot in Heaven. lol Who knows, you may end up His right hand man.

Okay well at this point is anyone actually going to hell? Cause here it seems like as long as a person realizes what they did was wrong they'll end up in heaven, and I would say it's a high percentage of criminals and the like, who realize their actions are bad.