How to deal with returning Jihadis

[EllJay]

How to deal with returning Jihadis

Return to sender.........or will that be re-return to sender???...hmm?

[Gromdor]

I've always had a sour spot for missionaries that went to war zones and had to be rescued. As for the Jihadi's though, it really isn't illegal to join another countries army. Be it the French Foreign Legion, Israel, etc. Heck, did you know that you don't have to be American to join the US military? So unless, the US specifically designates the army that an American joins as an enemy, he pretty much can do what he wants. http://militarycareers.about.com/od/Why-Join-The-Armed-Forces/tp/Foreign-Militaries-That-Accept-Us-Citizens.htm

[+and-then]

I've always had a sour spot for missionaries that went to war zones and had to be rescued. As for the Jihadi's though, it really isn't illegal to join another countries army. Be it the French Foreign Legion, Israel, etc. Heck, did you know that you don't have to be American to join the US military? So unless, the US specifically designates the army that an American joins as an enemy, he pretty much can do what he wants. http://militarycaree...Us-Citizens.htm

Again, you're telling me what IS. I'm talking about what SHOULD be in future. This is a relatively recent issue and is wrapped up in the specific situation with militant Islam. How should we apporach changing our laws to deal with this coming menace? Those who hired out as mercenaries or joined the FFL did so for adventure and $. Some of the youth of the west today probably are doing the same but if even half are serious ideologues we are going to face a tide of sleepers that could pull our houses down from within.

[Gromdor]

Making it illegal won't change people's hearts. They will just stay here and fight their war.

[+and-then]

No, we are not "at war with Islam". Islam is more than the extremist elements who use the religion to promote themselves using violence, just as Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, or any other religion is more than it's own extremist elements (such as some Millenialists) who similarly use or promote violence to further their agenda.

The number of Muslims who are vocal about wanting to take away your "western lifestyle" are far outnumbered by those who are quite happy for you to maintain your own belief, culture and society while they enjoy theirs.

spartan,

In the case of those who join organisations the UK recognises as terrorist groups, then the use of UK law to prevent those people from re-entering the country, or detaining them if they do enter, is applicable. However, that is not the only situation the OP was considering, and my reply was directed at this group of 'others' who would go to fight for what they believe, but not join any such organisation.

Okay, we aren't at war with Islam - only with people willing to kill themselves to further those concepts found in some of it's sacred writings. I'm not sure why that difference matters but okay. Hopefully you will acknowledge that it is a serious problem and ignoring it is foolish? Or do you feel it is so negligible a threat that it will resolve on it's own if we in the west find just the right posture of submission? I'm not trying to be insulting to you Leo, I'm serious about this discussion.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27947343

Yet another timely piece about this topic....

[+and-then]

Making it illegal won't change people's hearts. They will just stay here and fight their war.

Possibly. But why? What is it that would drive them to want to kill strangers in their own country? And frankly if I'm going to be attacked I'd rather it be by an angry man without combat skill than one who is well schooled - wouldn't you?

[Gromdor]

Hate, fear, ignorance, because the country is becoming to liberal/conservative, God tells them to, etc. People fight their little wars here every day, just usually not with guns.

I personally don't care for Jihad i's, but I really don't want the government telling Americans who or what causes are acceptable to fight for either. If someone believes in Syria/Israel/Hamas enough to go and fight and die for them, then I say by all means go there and do it. I believed in protecting America and that is why I joined the military when I was younger. One of the reasons why I left was because the politicians were starting to ask me to fight for causes other than what I believed in.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

An ounce of lead I'm the left ear and left in a ditch somewhere.

[+and-then]

An ounce of lead I'm the left ear and left in a ditch somewhere.

I was thinking more along the lines of stopping them at the borders when they arrive back - but your solution would work in a pinch

[Shayde]

Well, to go with a right-wing to-hell-with-them-all answer perhaps if these idiots knew that if you do go overseas to fight in this sort of manner, you lose your citizenship, plus we'd deport your family to the country you've chosen to fight in as well, that may help stop some of this. Okay, it's unworkable, and actually a bloody silly thing to suggest, but that could be a very severe way to deal with this.

On the other hand, if we know who the Jihadi fighter is, and can track them on their return, arrest them. Then if they have committed a crime while out fighting, then we send them to serve any sentence out in that country. However, we know that there's several lawyers just waiting to defend anyone that would be charged under such a suggestion. The fact the lawyers would be doing this by demanding legal aid has nowt to do with that of course...

A more sensible way to possibly put a halt to this is this: An Iman for the faith - or indeed any respected holy man if these are fighters for another religion - is to publicly denounce the idea of going off on a jihad, reminding all just what the various bibles and whatnot actually say in regard. And if you come out with saying that's not their own interpretation of whatever holy work they claim to follow say, then you can smack the buggers hard to see if you can knock sense into them!

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

The Aussie government's already stripped the passports off of proven Jihadists.

[Yamato]

Cameron said: "I disagree with those people who think this is nothing to do with us and if they want to have some sort of extreme Islamist regime in the middle of Iraq, that won't affect us. It will." "It will." isn't much of an explanation. Cameron should impress us all with his expert knowledge of how happenings in Iraq affect life in the UK.

[Yamato]

http://news.sky.com/...ed-to-target-uk

This seems to be a coming decision that Europe (and the US) are going to have to get serious with - or pay the consequences. If intel is there showing these citizens went to a war zone and joined the conflict should they lose their citizenship and right to return? I'm interested to hear any opinions.

If you trust central planners in Washington so much that you're now supporting murder in a ditch for picking the wrong flavor jihad, you should just check a box and pay a disproportionate share of taxes for that blind faith in bureaucratic nonsense and random whatever.

[+and-then]

If you trust central planners in Washington so much that you're now supporting murder in a ditch for picking the wrong flavor jihad, you should just check a box and pay a disproportionate share of taxes for that blind faith in bureaucratic nonsense and random whatever.

What in the world are you on about? Dude sometimes I wonder if we are even part of the same conversation. This thread is about deciding what to do with jihadis who acquire combat training to go with their anti western ideologies then return to their country of origin to make chaos.

[stevewinn]

It seems the process in the UK is to monitor those who return from fighting, but due to the impossibility of the security service Mi5 to keep 24 hour surveillance on all of them they quickly asses their threat level - and then remain on a list of interest before fading back into society. months or years go by before they take to the streets and start beheading people. it's only at this point the Government/Law acts/reacts. It doesn't matter if a innocent Citizen as been butchered to death, you and me - were expendable, what is not expendable is the Human Right of the perpetrator, who was left to walk amongst us of their own free will. why does someone always have to pay the ultimate price before these dangerous people are dealt with.

[+and-then]

It seems the process in the UK is to monitor those who return from fighting, but due to the impossibility of the security service Mi5 to keep 24 hour surveillance on all of them they quickly asses their threat level - and then remain on a list of interest before fading back into society. months or years go by before they take to the streets and start beheading people. it's only at this point the Government/Law acts/reacts. It doesn't matter if a innocent Citizen as been butchered to death, you and me - were expendable, what is not expendable is the Human Right of the perpetrator, who was left to walk amongst us of their own free will. why does someone always have to pay the ultimate price before these dangerous people are dealt with.

When it is (accurately) explained in this way it smacks of insanity, doesn't it? It's as though our governments want to destroy us with our own rules. Common sense as they say, ain't so common anymore.

[Border Collie]

It seems the process in the UK is to monitor those who return from fighting, but due to the impossibility of the security service Mi5 to keep 24 hour surveillance on all of them they quickly asses their threat level - and then remain on a list of interest before fading back into society. months or years go by before they take to the streets and start beheading people. it's only at this point the Government/Law acts/reacts. It doesn't matter if a innocent Citizen as been butchered to death, you and me - were expendable, what is not expendable is the Human Right of the perpetrator, who was left to walk amongst us of their own free will. why does someone always have to pay the ultimate price before these dangerous people are dealt with.

How are you going to assess them as dangerous?

[stevewinn]

How are you going to assess them as dangerous?

Well the security service seems to be able to asses them okay, so the system works because every terrorist attack the perpetrators prior to the attack have been identified and known to the security service so they know whose dangerous, the problem comes from the political system and the right of liberty. the balance or judgement is near impossible to make, when do you act?

you can have fighters returning from the likes of Syria - intelligence shows they've been fighting. but on returning to the UK they melt back into normal life not breaking British law. i'd class these people as dangerous, due to their activities - they've fought for a terrorist group, taken part in acts of terror against a sovereign state.

[Leonardo]

Well the security service seems to be able to asses them okay, so the system works because every terrorist attack the perpetrators prior to the attack have been identified and known to the security service so they know whose dangerous, the problem comes from the political system and the right of liberty. the balance or judgement is near impossible to make, when do you act?

you can have fighters returning from the likes of Syria - intelligence shows they've been fighting. but on returning to the UK they melt back into normal life not breaking British law. i'd class these people as dangerous, due to their activities - they've fought for a terrorist group, taken part in acts of terror against a sovereign state.

You mean, the very same political system that protects your liberty to speak your mind, and hold to whatever beliefs you deem 'right'?

It works both ways. If you want a Police State, then don't complain when your 'rights' disappear.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Leonardo

[stevewinn]

You mean, the very same political system that protects your liberty to speak your mind, and hold to whatever beliefs you deem 'right'?

It works both ways. If you want a Police State, then don't complain when your 'rights' disappear.

what are you going on about? have i said i want to do away with the political system or the rights of liberty, or police state? No. read my post again. and give me a like.

[Leonardo]

what are you going on about? have i said i want to do away with the political system or the rights of liberty, or police state? No. read my post again. and give me a like.

I did read your post and, unless you didn't express what you meant very well, you implied very strongly that the security services (part of the police state) are always (or should be considered) correct and "the problem is with the political system and the right of liberty".

So, what 'problem' are you referring to, if not that of the protection of the general population from a Police State-like situation?

[+and-then]

I did read your post and, unless you didn't express what you meant very well, you implied very strongly that the security services (part of the police state) are always (or should be considered) correct and "the problem is with the political system and the right of liberty".

So, what 'problem' are you referring to, if not that of the protection of the general population from a Police State-like situation?

What portion of the population of a state is seen to go and join a religious war in another country? What indicators are there present in the world that these same come back and make deadly mischief in their "home" country? When did THEIR rights trump those of the people who were BORN in that country, played by the rules and are currently PAYING for their (the sojourner's) upkeep in most cases? Keep fighting for their liberty and against common sense and you will end up with nothing to show but reciting the shahada or losing your head. Repeat after me -"There is no god but...."

[Leonardo]

What portion of the population of a state is seen to go and join a religious war in another country? What indicators are there present in the world that these same come back and make deadly mischief in their "home" country? When did THEIR rights trump those of the people who were BORN in that country, played by the rules and are currently PAYING for their (the sojourner's) upkeep in most cases? Keep fighting for their liberty and against common sense and you will end up with nothing to show but reciting the shahada or losing your head. Repeat after me -"There is no god but...."

I'm afraid I don't see where you have understood my argument. I am not arguing for the protection of the rights (the right of liberty) of any particular group of people, but for all people in our (UK) society. I just don't happen to view Muslims as 'outsiders' simply because they happen to believe in something different to myself.

[+and-then]

I'm afraid I don't see where you have understood my argument. I am not arguing for the protection of the rights (the right of liberty) of any particular group of people, but for all people in our (UK) society. I just don't happen to view Muslims as 'outsiders' simply because they happen to believe in something different to myself.

And I greatly respect your concern for freedom - it is well founded. But if we do not find a dividing line - a way of discerning when we have to restrict those freedoms responsibly then we will lose ALL of them for every citizen. Have no doubt - for these people "democracy is like a bus ride - you just have to know when to get off" iow, when they have power they become tyrants sharia compliant.

[Leonardo]

And I greatly respect your concern for freedom - it is well founded. But if we do not find a dividing line - a way of discerning when we have to restrict those freedoms responsibly then we will lose ALL of them for every citizen. Have no doubt - for these people "democracy is like a bus ride - you just have to know when to get off" iow, when they have power they become tyrants sharia compliant.

And I have already voiced my opinion on that, many posts ago. The UK has outlawed several Jihadist groups - labelling them terrorist organisations. Any person found to have joined such an organisation could be reasonably expected to be detained upon attempting to re-enter the country. As for others who have joined groups not on the 'black list' of terrorist organisations, I do not see any justification for persecuting or discriminating against them.