How to deal with returning Jihadis

[+and-then]

Ironic. You seem to exemplify thesame dangerous ideas as the extremists you so oppose by not differentiating between 'Islam' and 'extremist cults / offshoots' who act under the Islamic flag. Not limited by any semblance of knowledge concerning the object of your animosity. Which implies conditioning, again, just like the case with extremists.

The level of generalization (simplification) you maintain is a vehicle for crimes against humanity. It is identical to the extremists logic that everyone who can be categorised as 'moderate or non- Muslim' is 'the enemy'.

Identifying who the enemy IS is not the same as what these people are doing. If you feel safe and snug in your home country then good for you. If I'm wrong then I'll be the first to admit it but I am indeed a simple man and I tend not to distrust the evidence of my eyes and ears as a rule. Embrace them - hell, quote the shahada if you like - I will look to my own small fund of wisdom in this conflict.

[Phaeton80]

[..] I tend not to distrust the evidence of my eyes and ears as a rule.

Well there's the problem. You trust what is being served to the masses by the mainstream media as a rule.

This is not rational. In my opinion.

[+and-then]

Well there's the problem. You trust what is being served to the masses by the mainstream media as a rule.

This is not rational. In my opinion.

I don't trust media at all - my sources are far older and infinitely more reliable

[Phaeton80]

I don't trust media at all - my sources are far older and infinitely more reliable

It is the Bible which tells you Islam is the enemy?

Come now. Its the mainstream media.

[+and-then]

It is the Bible which tells you Islam is the enemy?

Come now. Its the mainstream media.

1John 2:22

Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son

Ask ANY Muslim if Jesus is the son of God. They deny it fervently. Ask them if he was crucified, died and resurrected and lives today at the right hand of the Father - they get a little testy about it. This isn't about YOU believing anything about Christ - I'm just answering your question.

[Phaeton80]

It does not say 'he who denies Yeshua to be the Son of G*d', it says he who denies the Father (G*d), and the Son (Yeshua). Meaning 'he who denies G*d and his Prophet, Messiah'. The part you didnt bolden; 'Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?' underwrites that interpretation, in addition to the absence of 'the Holy Spirit' in the part you did bolden.

The word "Christ" is derived from the Hebrew word Messiah, Arabic Maseeh. Root word masaha, meaning "to rub", "to massage", "to anoint". Although every prophet of G*d is an anointed one of G*d, a Messiah, the title Maseeh or Messiah, or its translation "Christ" is exclusively reserved for Jesus, the son of Mary, in both Islam and in Christianity.

"O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary..." (The Holy Quran 3:45)

" 'Behold!' the angels said: 'O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him: his name will be Jesus, the son of Mary; held in honor in this world and the hereafter; and (of the company of) those nearest to God." (3:45)

"And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed." (2:87)

The real difference between modern day Christianity and Islam is the former venerates Yeshua as G*d (the 'dying god'), and believe in the Trinity concept.

"I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge." (John 8:50)

"If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Matthew 7

²¹ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

²² Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

²³ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[+and-then]

It does not say 'he who denies Yeshua to be the Son of G*d', it says he who denies the Father (G*d), and the Son (Yeshua). Meaning 'he who denies G*d and his Prophet, Messiah'. The part you didnt bolden; 'Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?' underwrites that interpretation, in addition to the absence of 'the Holy Spirit' in the part you did bolden.

The word "Christ" is derived from the Hebrew word Messiah, Arabic Maseeh. Root word masaha, meaning "to rub", "to massage", "to anoint". Although every prophet of G*d is an anointed one of G*d, a Messiah, the title Maseeh or Messiah, or its translation "Christ" is exclusively reserved for Jesus, the son of Mary, in both Islam and in Christianity.

"O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary..." (The Holy Quran 3:45)

" 'Behold!' the angels said: 'O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him: his name will be Jesus, the son of Mary; held in honor in this world and the hereafter; and (of the company of) those nearest to God." (3:45)

"And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed." (2:87)

The real difference between modern day Christianity and Islam is the former venerates Yeshua as G*d (the 'dying god'), and believe in the Trinity concept.

"I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge." (John 8:50)

"If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Nice try. Ask any Muslim on this site if they believe that Jesus the anointed is the son of God. Ask them if he was crucified and died. You can play with the language of the texts all you like but my point is no less valid.

[RavenHawk]

It is the Bible which tells you Islam is the enemy?

The Quran is what tells me that Islam is the enemy. Anyone who spends anytime reading and studying the Quran can understand that. It's all about dualistic concepts. The Quran separates the world into two groups. You are either part of the body of believers or you are not. Within this body, you are accorded respect between one another. If you are not part of the believers, then your lot is war and death. It's as simple as that. There really isn't a moderate Muslim, it's that moderates focus more on living within the body rather than dealing with outsiders. The "extremists" are the ones that seek actively to engaged the non believer. The Quran tells the moderate how to put up with the non believer when not actively engaging them, especially when living in non believer lands. They use a technique that builds animosity within the non believer so that they always claim that they are defending themselves. This is why Muslims never really answer a direct question about their faith. And both moderate and extremist are faithfully following their faith.

[+and-then]

The Quran is what tells me that Islam is the enemy. Anyone who spends anytime reading and studying the Quran can understand that. It's all about dualistic concepts. The Quran separates the world into two groups. You are either part of the body of believers or you are not. Within this body, you are accorded respect between one another. If you are not part of the believers, then your lot is war and death. It's as simple as that. There really isn't a moderate Muslim, it's that moderates focus more on living within the body rather than dealing with outsiders. The "extremists" are the ones that seek actively to engaged the non believer. The Quran tells the moderate how to put up with the non believer when not actively engaging them, especially when living in non believer lands. They use a technique that builds animosity within the non believer so that they always claim that they are defending themselves. This is why Muslims never really answer a direct question about their faith. And both moderate and extremist are faithfully following their faith.

Yep... it's amazing how often one hears: you have that out of context!" " You are not Muslim so you wouldn't understand!", and so on. As if one must be a venerated scholar to understand a plainly written text.

[EllJay]

Yep... it's amazing how often one hears: you have that out of context!" " You are not Muslim so you wouldn't understand!", and so on. As if one must be a venerated scholar to understand a plainly written text.

Here you have a guy who can speak to this "out of context"-shullbit we hear all the time. Well worth watching.>>>

http://youtu.be/GA2eFtAaDS4

[RavenHawk]

Yep... it's amazing how often one hears: you have that out of context!" " You are not Muslim so you wouldn't understand!", and so on. As if one must be a venerated scholar to understand a plainly written text.

That's the thing. I think I would be a very good Muslim, except I believe that Isa *IS* the Mahdi - the Messiah. (The Kwisatz Haderach - sorry couldn't resist :-)

[Phaeton80]

Nice try. Ask any Muslim on this site if they believe that Jesus the anointed is the son of God. Ask them if he was crucified and died. You can play with the language of the texts all you like but my point is no less valid.

And what do you suppose 'the son of G*d' means? Concerning Christhood, the Qur'an explicitly states Yeshua was the Christ, in other words, the annointed one.

It all comes down to worshipping Yeshua as a deity, part of 'the Trinity', as G*d Himself. Which was never intended, personally I am convinced of this. The Trinity, Yeshua removing the Law.. Diversions. The Law still stands as it did in the days of Moses. We will be held accountable for our sins. The Trinity, 'The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost' - was seeded by Pagan influence. Never has it been mentioned explicitly as such in the Septuagint, once.

..How do you divert any religion in the most effective way? Elevate the Prophet / Messiah / central human figure to a higher status than was ever intended. Elevate the beloved Christ to godhood. Anyone critical of such elevation would be called 'anti Christ'.. would be seen as some 'opposer' of Yeshua's glory by the given religious congregation, while in actual fact it is the direct opposite.

Some interesting verses that relate to this:

[5:116]

And Lo! God said: "O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, ‘Worship me and my mother as deities beside God’?"

[Jesus] answered: "Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! It would not have been possible for me to say what I had no right to [say]! Had I said this, Thou wouldst indeed have known it! Thou knowest all that is within myself, whereas I know not what is in Thy Self.

Verily, it is Thou alone who fully knowest all the things that are beyond the reach of a created being’s perception.

[5:117]

"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, ’worship G*d, my Lord and your Lord’; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

[4:153]

The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us God in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority.

[4:154]

And for their covenant we raised over them (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai); and (on another occasion) we said: "Enter the gate with humility"; and (once again) we commanded them: "Transgress not in the matter of the sabbath." And we took from them a solemn covenant.

[4:155]

(They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of God; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve God’s Word; We need no more)";- Nay, God hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-

[4:156]

That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

[4:157]

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

[4:158]

Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

[4:159]

And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

[4:160]

For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from God’s Way;-

[4:161]

That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men’s substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.

[4:162]

But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.

[4:163]

We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.

[4:164]

Of some apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses God spoke direct;

Edited July 6, 2014 by Phaeton80

[+and-then]

And what do you suppose 'the son of G*d' means? Concerning Christhood, the Qur'an explicitly states Yeshua was the Christ, in other words, the annointed one.

It all comes down to worshipping Yeshua as a deity, part of 'the Trinity', as G*d Himself. Which was never intended, personally I am convinced of this. The Trinity, Yeshua removing the Law.. Diversions. The Law still stands as it did in the days of Moses. We will be held accountable for our sins. The Trinity, 'The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost' - was seeded by Pagan influence. Never has it been mentioned explicitly as such in the Septuagint, once.

..How do you divert any religion in the most effective way? Elevate the Prophet / Messiah / central human figure to a higher status than was ever intended. Elevate the beloved Christ to godhood. Anyone critical of such elevation would be called 'anti Christ'.. would be seen as some 'opposer' of Yeshua's glory by the given religious congregation, while in actual fact it is the direct opposite.

Some interesting verses that relate to this:

So your answer is that they DO accept him as the son of God? Lots of words but no real answer P80. As I said, the personal feelings in this matter don't really mean anything to me. To keep it more topical I can say without any fear of being proven wrong that you cannot find ANY MUSLIM to affirm to you that they believe Yeshua the anointed one is anything other than a prophet. They do not believe he is deity nor that he died on a cross. In fact it is the worst sin one can commit in Islam to believe these things. Because of this, all who enter this fight and return back to their "home" country will have to be monitored forever after - which is impossible. You can expect the handy little lessons they learned in Syria and Iraq to work just as effectively in a city near you or your family.

[DefenceMinisterMishkin]

Send in Team America..

[+and-then]

Send in Team America..

Been there done that and Obama says you're on your own!

[Phaeton80]

So your answer is that they DO accept him as the son of God? Lots of words but no real answer P80. As I said, the personal feelings in this matter don't really mean anything to me. To keep it more topical I can say without any fear of being proven wrong that you cannot find ANY MUSLIM to affirm to you that they believe Yeshua the anointed one is anything other than a prophet. They do not believe he is deity nor that he died on a cross. In fact it is the worst sin one can commit in Islam to believe these things. Because of this, all who enter this fight and return back to their "home" country will have to be monitored forever after - which is impossible. You can expect the handy little lessons they learned in Syria and Iraq to work just as effectively in a city near you or your family.

As I tried to make clear in previous post; that depends on how you would define 'son of G*d'.

We already estalished the Qur'an states very clearly Yeshua was created by G*d in the whom of Mary, and was given authority to make miracles come to pass (from childhood) - to proclaim the Message.

It also clearly states Yeshua is the Christ. The issue Islam has with the term 'son of G*d', is that it implies G*d had partners. A consort, a 'godess'. That the term 'son of G*d' has a strong connection with pagan religions..

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of God, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of God. That is their saying with their mouths; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They have taken as lords beside God their rabbis and their monks and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God, there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him. (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). They desire to extinguish God's light with their mouths. God will not allow but God shall perfect His light, even though the unbelievers may detest (it). It is He Who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it). [The Holy Qur'an, Surah 9:30-33]

Edited July 6, 2014 by Phaeton80

[Yamato]

So your answer is that they DO accept him as the son of God? Lots of words but no real answer P80. As I said, the personal feelings in this matter don't really mean anything to me. To keep it more topical I can say without any fear of being proven wrong that you cannot find ANY MUSLIM to affirm to you that they believe Yeshua the anointed one is anything other than a prophet. They do not believe he is deity nor that he died on a cross. In fact it is the worst sin one can commit in Islam to believe these things. Because of this, all who enter this fight and return back to their "home" country will have to be monitored forever after - which is impossible. You can expect the handy little lessons they learned in Syria and Iraq to work just as effectively in a city near you or your family.

Judaism on Jesus: Jesus is not the Messiah; he's a false prophet and a law breaker.

Islam on Jesus: Jesus is a superhuman messenger who didn't even die, sent from God to earth to show humans the way

The important thing to learn from this distinction is that Islam is not incompatible with Jesus Christ.

I think whether or not he's a "son" or some other familial relationship isn't asking much in 2014. The ancient people had a real fetish with these blood relationships. The whole bloodline of David thing. The people of the day were making a big deal about whether he was the "son of God" or not, and based on Jesus's answers to that question I'd say he was slightly annoyed by it.

And why aren't you engaged in numerous deep debates about religion on the religion board more often? I just scanned down several pages of discussion and never saw your name. Why is your "religious belief" all about Israel? I see Frankie and Roofus there. And many other familiar names. When Frank was just a newborn on these forums he was telling us about how he cared nothing for Religion and now he's in there on a regular basis. You've so perfectly crawled behind your Religion Shield +4 on this forum, but your shield with the word 'Religion' painted on it is little more than being confined to the Middle East and Israel, isn't it?

[Yamato]

What in the world are you on about? Dude sometimes I wonder if we are even part of the same conversation. This thread is about deciding what to do with jihadis who acquire combat training to go with their anti western ideologies then return to their country of origin to make chaos.

And what have you decided to do with them, Your Grace?

I'm sure the discussions about the US behind closed doors in the Middle East are ridiculous every time the US offers to "help".

Amir: I don't want to be seen on the same side as the USA and neither do you. That's something we all agree on.

Ahmed: No Amir, you cannot forget who arms you. You cannot turn your back on the one ally that can save us!

Amir: They'll kill us when they find out we've been working with the Americans.

Ahmed: After we win the war, we can show what we really think about America, but not yet.

Amir: ...

And the next thing you know, we're back in bed selling our azes to the next group.

[+and-then]

As I tried to make clear in previous post; that depends on how you would define 'son of G*d'.

We already estalished the Qur'an states very clearly Yeshua was created by G*d in the whom of Mary, and was given authority to make miracles come to pass (from childhood) - to proclaim the Message.

It also clearly states Yeshua is the Christ. The issue Islam has with the term 'son of G*d', is that it implies G*d had partners. A consort, a 'godess'. That the term 'son of G*d' has a strong connection with pagan religions..

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of God, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of God. That is their saying with their mouths; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They have taken as lords beside God their rabbis and their monks and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God, there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him. (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). They desire to extinguish God's light with their mouths. God will not allow but God shall perfect His light, even though the unbelievers may detest (it). It is He Who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it). [The Holy Qur'an, Surah 9:30-33]

You seem to be dancing around admitting that Muslims simply do NOT accept Jesus as the son of God. It isn't a difficult point. Tell you what - ask any Muslim on this site that question. Not ONE is going to say yes. Jews don't accept him either, of course. I'm not sure why you seem invested in questioning something so basic.

Judaism on Jesus: Jesus is not the Messiah; he's a false prophet and a law breaker.

Islam on Jesus: Jesus is a superhuman messenger who didn't even die, sent from God to earth to show humans the way

The important thing to learn from this distinction is that Islam is not incompatible with Jesus Christ.

I think whether or not he's a "son" or some other familial relationship isn't asking much in 2014. The ancient people had a real fetish with these blood relationships. The whole bloodline of David thing. The people of the day were making a big deal about whether he was the "son of God" or not, and based on Jesus's answers to that question I'd say he was slightly annoyed by it.

And why aren't you engaged in numerous deep debates about religion on the religion board more often? I just scanned down several pages of discussion and never saw your name. Why is your "religious belief" all about Israel? I see Frankie and Roofus there. And many other familiar names. When Frank was just a newborn on these forums he was telling us about how he cared nothing for Religion and now he's in there on a regular basis. You've so perfectly crawled behind your Religion Shield +4 on this forum, but your shield with the word 'Religion' painted on it is little more than being confined to the Middle East and Israel, isn't it?

Just because his deity seems immaterial to you doesn't mean Muslims don't care. They are expressly forbidden to give anyone or anything a co-equal place with their god Allah. And I stay out of religious discussions here primarily because they are either too advanced for my limited scholarship - OR - they are just nasty diatribes by those who want to argue. I've expressed what my faith is and the fact that everyone is welcome to believe as they will - I'm completely okay with that.

[toyomotor]

Without completely deserting the OP, any of our citizens or residents who are identified as fighting with a recognised terrorist organisation should not be permitted re-entry into our country.

If the person so identified has obtained citizenship, or was born here, their citizenship should be immediately revoked.

Let them take their terrorist training elsewhere.

[Yamato]

ust because his deity seems immaterial to you doesn't mean Muslims don't care. They are expressly forbidden to give anyone or anything a co-equal place with their god Allah. And I stay out of religious discussions here primarily because they are either too advanced for my limited scholarship - OR - they are just nasty diatribes by those who want to argue. I've expressed what my faith is and the fact that everyone is welcome to believe as they will - I'm completely okay with that.

So they're either too smart or too nasty? And you post on this board to get away from that? Alrighty then.

And yet for having such a limited scholarship you sure love your own nasty diatribes about Islam. "Forbidden from a co-equal place?" Israel is doing that to Palestine right now. Are you blind? What reason is that to pick sides? As usual with Zionist hypocrisy, Muslims can't even WANT to do what Israel IS doing. You're not going to get away with hypocrisy that rife.

Instead of starting with a valid principle for what you believe in, such as NOBODY should be oppressing ANYBODY, you skip right over who's actually doing it to focus on the alleged emotions of nameless people on the other side.

You believe in Israeli policy. That much is clear.

[Yamato]

Without completely deserting the OP, any of our citizens or residents who are identified as fighting with a recognised terrorist organisation should not be permitted re-entry into our country.

If the person so identified has obtained citizenship, or was born here, their citizenship should be immediately revoked.

Let them take their terrorist training elsewhere.

Was it terror when they overthrew Qaddafi? When they're overthrowing Assad? Or is it only now just Maliki for bureaucratic reasons?

Banish returning Jihadists? What are we going to do with those people providing materials and financial aid to the people recognized as fighting with known terrorist organizations? Surely we shouldn't deport them but wouldn't some kind of slap on the wrist be appropriate?

[Phaeton80]

You seem to be dancing around admitting that Muslims simply do NOT accept Jesus as the son of God

I have no desire to convince you of anything. What I would like however, is you defining what 'the son of G*d' actually means to you.

Because it seems to me you are the one dancing here.

[+and-then]

I have no desire to convince you of anything. What I would like however, is you defining what 'the son of G*d' actually means to you.

Because it seems to me you are the one dancing here.

Fair enough. The son of God - Jesus the Christ - is an incarnation of God himself come to earth. He also happens to be the Creator - who was from the beginning and will be forever. He is a third part of the triune Godhead. It seems to me that this off topic jaunt has about run it's course, no? My version of who the son of God is does not differ from Christians in general or specific points. And Muslims reject his deity as a fundamental tenet of their faith in Allah. Not sure why there is confusion on this point. As I said, ask any Muslim on the site if they believe that Issa (Jesus) is the son of God.

[Phaeton80]

Fair enough. The son of God - Jesus the Christ - is an incarnation of God himself come to earth. He also happens to be the Creator - who was from the beginning and will be forever. He is a third part of the triune Godhead. It seems to me that this off topic jaunt has about run it's course, no? My version of who the son of God is does not differ from Christians in general or specific points. And Muslims reject his deity as a fundamental tenet of their faith in Allah. Not sure why there is confusion on this point. As I said, ask any Muslim on the site if they believe that Issa (Jesus) is the son of God.

Thank you. Then my former posts were on point, I have nothing more to say on this, and see no reason to repeat myself.

One last thing; Muslims reject his deity as a fundamental tenet of their faith in the one G*d, yes. Thesame G*d of Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Lot, Joseph, Job, Jonah, Moses, Aaron, Elijah, David, Solomon, Daniel, Ezra, John, Yeshua, and Muhammad.