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How to deal with returning Jihadis

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RavenHawk

I just don't happen to view Muslims as 'outsiders' simply because they happen to believe in something different to myself.

What if that belief teaches that they are outsiders? I believe that Mohammed is quoted in a Hadith that Islam began alienated and will return as it began. And the old proverb “oh stranger in a strange land” is Muslim in origin. The Quran is full of ayahs that keep the Muslim apart from the non-Muslim society. To mingle is to invite a threat to the Ummah. So it really doesn’t matter what your view of it is. It is what their view of it is.

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Leonardo

What if that belief teaches that they are outsiders? I believe that Mohammed is quoted in a Hadith that Islam began alienated and will return as it began. And the old proverb "oh stranger in a strange land" is Muslim in origin. The Quran is full of ayahs that keep the Muslim apart from the non-Muslim society. To mingle is to invite a threat to the Ummah. So it really doesn't matter what your view of it is. It is what their view of it is.

So what? People are free to believe what they will. It doesn't matter to my belief that someone else believes differently, and it doesn't matter to the ethics upon which our system of justice is built either.

And, for the record, I don't think I have met a Muslim who has behaved towards me as if I was an 'outsider'. I'm not saying that those Muslims I have met are representative of all Muslims, but it indicates to me that those about whom people seem to be 'concerned' are very much in the minority.

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So what? People are free to believe what they will. It doesn't matter to my belief that someone else believes differently, and it doesn't matter to the ethics upon which our system of justice is built either.

And, for the record, I don't think I have met a Muslim who has behaved towards me as if I was an 'outsider'. I'm not saying that those Muslims I have met are representative of all Muslims, but it indicates to me that those about whom people seem to be 'concerned' are very much in the minority.

9-11 was accomplished with a minority of 19.

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RavenHawk

So what? People are free to believe what they will.

Precisely!

It doesn't matter to my belief that someone else believes differently,

That’s what Islam counts on. If it doesn’t matter then pronounce the Shahada and submit to the will of Allah.

and it doesn't matter to the ethics upon which our system of justice is built either.

If it is not Sharia, it matters a lot in Islam. The major sin in Islam is Shirk. Muslims can use Taqiya while living in this society and have a defacto exemption from Shirk. "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts". I.e., to become an American citizen requires taking the oath of citizenship. In Islam, this is but a thoughtless oath.

And, for the record, I don't think I have met a Muslim who has behaved towards me as if I was an 'outsider'.

And I suspect that you won’t. For you, you are not the outsider. Hospitality is a form of Taqiya but also offers a chance to convert. Once invited into the home, you will not find anyone more hospitable.

I'm not saying that those Muslims I have met are representative of all Muslims, but it indicates to me that those about whom people seem to be 'concerned' are very much in the minority.

All Muslims are different. And in many ways, they are just like any non-Muslim that raises a family. But the difference is that while they are part of the Ummah, you are not. Therefore, it doesn’t matter what your beliefs are.

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EllJay

Brigitte Gabriel talks about the `peaceful majority´ of muslims, and why this majority are irrelevant compared to the minority, of the extremist, when it comes to what they can cause.

Then listen to this incredible piece of recording. It is from a muslim "Peace Conference" in Norway. The audience is ordinary muslims from different parts of Norway, belonging to no special affiliation/group/sect that convened there. They are, just as the Imam says, after asking them - normal, ordinary, everyday muslims, and no extremists. They come from different, but ordinary, mosques from cities all over the country. The imam makes a point of it over and over again, that they are just ordinary, everyday, muslims.

[media=]http://youtu.be/mO6PcFYXMo4

This is in Norway, do you think, after seeing this, that it is anyway different amongst many Dutch, Belgian, French, American or British muslim groups, on these questions he raised and asked them?

Edited by EllJay
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Brigitte Gabriel talks about the `peaceful majority´ of muslims, and why this majority are irrelevant compared to the minority, of the extremist, when it comes to what they can cause.

Then listen to this incredible piece of recording. It is from a muslim "Peace Conference" in Norway. The audience is ordinary muslims from different parts of Norway, belonging to no special affiliation/group/sect that convened there. They are, just as the Imam says, after asking them - normal, ordinary, everyday muslims, and no extremists. They come from different, but ordinary, mosques from cities all over the country. The imam makes a point of it over and over again, that they are just ordinary, everyday, muslims.

[media=]http://youtu.be/mO6PcFYXMo4

This is in Norway, do you think, after seeing this, that it is anyway different amongst many Dutch, Belgian, French, American or British muslim groups, on these questions he raised and asked them?

Kind of sums it up, no? Excellent video. I wish more like this would be displayed broadly!

Brigitte Gabriel survived life in Lebanon and is relentless in her education of westerners in how things REALLY are. If she ran for office where I could vote for her I'd do so in a heartbeat.

Edited by and then

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Leonardo

That's what Islam counts on. If it doesn't matter then pronounce the Shahada and submit to the will of Allah.

Did you read what I wrote?

It matters not to me what anyone else believes in, so why would I "submit to the will of Allah" when I don't follow Islam? You are simply fear-mongering.

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Leonardo

Then listen to this incredible piece of recording. It is from a muslim "Peace Conference" in Norway. The audience is ordinary muslims from different parts of Norway, belonging to no special affiliation/group/sect that convened there. They are, just as the Imam says, after asking them - normal, ordinary, everyday muslims, and no extremists. They come from different, but ordinary, mosques from cities all over the country. The imam makes a point of it over and over again, that they are just ordinary, everyday, muslims.

[media=]http://youtu.be/mO6PcFYXMo4[/media]

This is in Norway, do you think, after seeing this, that it is anyway different amongst many Dutch, Belgian, French, American or British muslim groups, on these questions he raised and asked them?

Of course, because all the 'ordinary' Muslims in Norway attended this conference. And how many extremists do you know exclaim to the world "I am an extremist!"?

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Of course, because all the 'ordinary' Muslims in Norway attended this conference. And how many extremists do you know exclaim to the world "I am an extremist!"?

The point, Leo, is that they think of themselves as "ordinary". And what chance does someone from outside that demographic have to discern who is and who isn't without surveillance long term? And THAT certainly isn't going to happen on such a scale so we are left accepting them as a group or being suspect of them as a group. Israel - as an example - has a flourishing , even strident, peace camp that get loud and in the face of their conservatives. Can you show me a similar group of Muslims anywhere in the world? Those who openly stand and speak against the behavior of the "radicals"?

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Leonardo

The point, Leo, is that they think of themselves as "ordinary".

So what? That, and the 'point' made by Elljay in posting the video, is irrelevant to the topic of discussion

And what chance does someone from outside that demographic have to discern who is and who isn't without surveillance long term?

The only people who should be taken action against should be those who have been identified as having associated with known criminal/terrorist organisations. Active surveillance on the scale you suggest, against people of no known criminal activity, borders on Police Statism.

Israel - as an example - has a flourishing , even strident, peace camp that get loud and in the face of their conservatives. Can you show me a similar group of Muslims anywhere in the world? Those who openly stand and speak against the behavior of the "radicals"?

Even more irrelevant to the topic of discussion. Are you trying to hold the Israeli's up as "the good guys" as some sort of comparison to "teh evul Moslems"?

Edited by Leonardo

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EllJay

Of course, because all the 'ordinary' Muslims in Norway attended this conference. And how many extremists do you know exclaim to the world "I am an extremist!"?

It was a big Muslim Peace Conference that invited muslims from all over Norway to attend - so yeah, it was a pretty diverse selection of muslims there - and as he says - from different mosques from all over the country. You cant get a better average than that.

They profess if they are Salafists or Wahabists, and also if they are not, so why should they lie here - and as a I said; they came from different mosques from all over the country

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EllJay

Kind of sums it up, no? Excellent video. I wish more like this would be displayed broadly!

Brigitte Gabriel survived life in Lebanon and is relentless in her education of westerners in how things REALLY are. If she ran for office where I could vote for her I'd do so in a heartbeat.

She doesn't mince her words, thats for sure. She can be a bit to generalizing some times, and she gets some criticism for that. But in the cesspool of political correctness gone wild, she is someone who bring the discussion back to "the nut and bolts", and put some clarity back on topic.

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Leonardo

It was a big Muslim Peace Conference that invited muslims from all over Norway to attend - so yeah, it was a pretty diverse selection of muslims there - and as he says - from different mosques from all over the country. You cant get a better average than that.

They profess if they are Salafists or Wahabists, and also if they are not, so why should they lie here - and as a I said; they came from different mosques from all over the country

It's not a matter of lying, it's a matter of relativity. To you. some of those people may seem to be extremist. Among themselves, they do not consider each other extremist (if they even are to anyone else).

So why would any of them claim to be an extremist when asked?

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Did you read what I wrote?

It matters not to me what anyone else believes in, so why would I "submit to the will of Allah" when I don't follow Islam? You are simply fear-mongering.

Because ignoring evil doesn't make it go away? Political correctness is fine until you expect THEM to agree with it. THEN you will see reality. Maybe you'll be fortunate enough to get some of that reaction personally someday.

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EllJay

It's not a matter of lying, it's a matter of relativity. To you. some of those people may seem to be extremist. Among themselves, they do not consider each other extremist (if they even are to anyone else).

So why would any of them claim to be an extremist when asked?

Thats the effin point, they declare themselves ordinary normal everyday muslims, and are treated as such in the society, but when one scratch on the surface, stuff like this floats up. Listen to WTF they agree to - what the Imam asks them.

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Leonardo

Thats the effin point, they declare themselves ordinary normal everyday muslims, and are treated as such in the society, but when one scratch on the surface, stuff like this floats up. Listen to WTF they agree to - what the Imam asks them.

As I said, what makes you think the people at this 'Muslim Peace Conference' are representative of all Muslims even in Norway, let alone other non-Muslim nations?

Because they say so?

Well, that's obviously definitive then... :mellow:

How many of the people in that conference, outside the peer-pressure environment generated inside, would actively promote stoning as punishment amongst their non-Muslim friends?

The assumptions you are making from such a small, uncontrolled sample are so unreliable they cannot be given credence.

Edited by Leonardo
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EllJay

As I said, what makes you think the people at this 'Muslim Peace Conference' are representative of all Muslims even in Norway, let alone other non-Muslim nations?

Because they say so?

Well, that's obviously definitive then... :mellow:

How many of the people in that conference, outside the peer-pressure environment generated inside, would actively promote stoning as punishment amongst their non-Muslim friends?

The assumptions you are making from such a small, uncontrolled sample are so unreliable they cannot be given credence.

Becuase they state that they all come from different ordinary everyday mosques from all over Norway. And as I said; that is as good average you can get. When they do polls thats how they do it. They get a wide selection of normal everyday people to answer question, then you get an average.

Did it look like this imam was surprised by the reaction he got? Dont you think he has been around internationally to preach at mosques the same way, and asked the same question there? He looked like he was pretty sure on what answer he would get. Regardless of that - lets say he was chased out of every mosque he ever visited in Europe, asking these questions, except this one in Norway. It at least shows that the depravation of the average of Norwegian muslims.

That is just how insane islamists works, they rally a large amount of people and hammer them with BS like this until they all think that this is OK, this is normal rational behavior that is expected of me as a muslim. And if that is taught to them at every step along the way, you have a bunch of extremists pretty soon. But even if they are not radicalized more than this, they agree to the punishment stated in the Quran on how to punish women, gays and apostasy - death. That is insane enough.

As I said; When they do polls thats how they do it. They get a wide selection of normal everyday people to answer questions, then you get an average.

BTW: Regarding peer-pressure - look at the man in the front row, second from the right.

.

Edited by EllJay

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RavenHawk

Did you read what I wrote?

Loud and clear. Everyone read it clearly.

It matters not to me what anyone else believes in, so why would I "submit to the will of Allah" when I don't follow Islam? You are simply fear-mongering.

That’s the point. It doesn’t matter to you and everyone sees that. That only encourages Islam and Islam sees you with a weak faith. You may not show prejudice but Islam will exploit that against you. And it will continue to insist that you conform to their sensibilities rather than acclimate to the host society. It sees tolerance as a weakness.

And when does fear-mongering finally turn into vigilance? I would think that someone that would describe this as fear-mongering is someone that is not aware of the situation. There’s a difference between vigilance and fear.

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RavenHawk

It's not a matter of lying, it's a matter of relativity.

It’s a matter of working a room. Working up a frenzy. Using knowledge to kowtow the followers.

To you. some of those people may seem to be extremist.

Actually they don’t. They all look like normal people. It really shows that there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. There is no extremist. It is just Muslim, the Ummah, dar al-Islam. Anyone who moderates from that is an apostate committing Shirk.

Among themselves, they do not consider each other extremist (if they even are to anyone else).

Absolutely. You notice that whenever a moderate is cornered the worse they speak out against extremists is lip service.

So why would any of them claim to be an extremist when asked?

And that is Taqiyq and Kitman.

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Leonardo

Boy, there are some people here who are REALLY prejudiced against Islam or Muslims.

I have no fear of Islam, or Muslims. Islam is just a religion, no better or worse than any other religion - such as Christianity or Judaism and, like Christianity and Judaism, those who practise the religion do so in varying ways. Some with a more literal interpretation and some with a more 'flexible' interpretation, adapting their beliefs to the society they live in. In the UK, it is the latter who are far, far more prevalent than the former.

So, am I worried about a "Muslim takeover/uprising"? No. Despite what our Govt states, there is no "Islamic threat to the UK". Of course, there is always the chance of disgruntled people committing heinous acts - but that could be anyone, not just Muslims.

The main cause of any possible 'attack' in the UK would be if people felt ostracised, and feeding this myth that Islam is a 'threat' will only exacerbate that happening.

Now, I expect to receive accusations of "cowardice" or "ignorance" from certain people regarding their agenda of 'alerting us to the threat of Islam'. Fire away.

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Boy, there are some people here who are REALLY prejudiced against Islam or Muslims.

I have no fear of Islam, or Muslims. Islam is just a religion, no better or worse than any other religion - such as Christianity or Judaism and, like Christianity and Judaism, those who practise the religion do so in varying ways. Some with a more literal interpretation and some with a more 'flexible' interpretation, adapting their beliefs to the society they live in. In the UK, it is the latter who are far, far more prevalent than the former.

So, am I worried about a "Muslim takeover/uprising"? No. Despite what our Govt states, there is no "Islamic threat to the UK". Of course, there is always the chance of disgruntled people committing heinous acts - but that could be anyone, not just Muslims.

The main cause of any possible 'attack' in the UK would be if people felt ostracised, and feeding this myth that Islam is a 'threat' will only exacerbate that happening.

Now, I expect to receive accusations of "cowardice" or "ignorance" from certain people regarding their agenda of 'alerting us to the threat of Islam'. Fire away.

Not from me, Leo. I believe people have the right to believe as they will. We definitely disagree on this one. I think there is abundant evidence in Europe of Islamic communities that isolate themselves and preach (literally) the destruction of their host countries. Not sure you'll find Christian or Jewish analogs of that behavior but maybe you can. I really don't call being vigilant against a threat the same as hating. Taking unwarranted action pre-emptively against a group that has done nothing to me would be hating and that isn't what I advocate here.
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kartikg

If USA/NATO supports the Syrian rebels and people from these countries go to Syria then indirectly you are supporting the war and when they come back how can you deny them entry.

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RavenHawk

Boy, there are some people here who are REALLY prejudiced against Islam or Muslims.

There’s a big difference between being aware/vigilant and hate/fear. Am I like Yam who uses every opportunity to bad mouth those that disagree with him or go out of my way to attack Muslims (like he attacks Israel)? Or do you see me use the facts, track record, history, and the Quran to paint a picture to help enlighten people’s understanding of the situation?

I have no fear of Islam, or Muslims. Islam is just a religion, no better or worse than any other religion - such as Christianity or Judaism and, like Christianity and Judaism, those who practise the religion do so in varying ways. Some with a more literal interpretation and some with a more 'flexible' interpretation, adapting their beliefs to the society they live in. In the UK, it is the latter who are far, far more prevalent than the former.

You’re serious? I wonder how many on Flight 93 had the same view, or those on a double-decker bus in 2007 London? I wonder how you’d feel in Northern Iraq right about now?

Jesus told his followers to love one another and to go make disciples of the world. He wasn’t specific about how. It ranged widely from St Francis to Charlemagne. But Jesus’ basic message was to respect EVERYONE no matter who they are but at the same time to not be stupid or naïve about it. Humanity was divided between Jew and Gentile and it didn’t matter. Islam separates the world into two camps, the House of Peace and the House of War. It’s not much of a brainer to see that Muslims occupy the House of Peace. Mohammed speaks of peace and compassion with those that are within the body but for those not of the body, Muslims are commanded to attack and kill the non believer. So yes, those that practice their religion do so in varying ways, but the core beliefs establish the character of the faith.

So, am I worried about a "Muslim takeover/uprising"? No. Despite what our Govt states, there is no "Islamic threat to the UK". Of course, there is always the chance of disgruntled people committing heinous acts - but that could be anyone, not just Muslims.

A few years ago, to think about bringing Sharia Law into English life was unheard of. Now, there are those that represent about 5% of the population demanding that Sharia be incorporated into English Law or at the very least to separate Muslim from non-Muslim, which is by-the-way a means to divide and conquer. Once that separation is made, then Muslims can attack the non-believer with Jihad of the tongue until they submit to the will of Allah. Part of immigration is to accept and adapt to the laws of the host land. Otherwise, why immigrate?

The main cause of any possible 'attack' in the UK would be if people felt ostracised, and feeding this myth that Islam is a 'threat' will only exacerbate that happening.

The main cause is incompatible dogma. Dar al-Harb threatens the body therefore should be ostracized as part of one’s inner struggle. This is not myth. It is black & white. It is core.

Now, I expect to receive accusations of "cowardice" or "ignorance" from certain people regarding their agenda of 'alerting us to the threat of Islam'. Fire away.

Not cowardice but certainly naivety. Ignorance is truly bliss and that is what Islam expects from the non-believer. There is no hate in that. Knowledge is power and if you know the ways of the enemy, they are powerless.

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and then

If USA/NATO supports the Syrian rebels and people from these countries go to Syria then indirectly you are supporting the war and when they come back how can you deny them entry.

This is one of the more troubling points, I agree. There is no doubt that some - possibly MOST of these Jihadis will someday make war against their own communities. But it seems hypocritical in the PC world to deny them return since their own government supported the war effort as well. I assume that the politics of the situation will change dramatically after the next 7-7 or 9-11 happens.

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